Supercharger or Turbo?
 

I plan on getting one of these as an aftermarket mod but im not quite sure as to the pro's and cons as they relate to each other... help??


:help: :help: :help: :help: :help:


:D

I would wait and see what GM does, there may be a S/C motor in the works.
Biggest con of either from aftermarket is that it will void your warranty.
That's a good question but it's a little early. Both need under hood space that we don't know if we're gonna have just yet.

Not necessarily, there are turbo kits that mount on the exhaust pipes. Can't remember what they are called off the top of my head.

It all depends on what you plan to do with the car, what your performance goals are and if you will get a v8 or v6. Give us more info.

You are thinking about STS remote mount turbo system.

That's the one. Thanks bud.

supercharger, only ricers use aftermarket turbo's.

+1 I like the look of superchargers better, well, the roots-style anyways. It just seems to me that although, perhaps, better peak power can be produced with turbos (from what I've read and seen) the packaging and tuning are the biggest issues. I'd rather have something simpler. Besides, like I already posted, turbos just don't look quite as nice as a polished twin-screw/roots-style supercharger. I can't say that I particularly like how the intercoolers on the LS9 and LSA look, I understand what they do and that they are necessary. I don't complain about those one bit.

Supercharger here ;)

Niether will void your warranty unless something goes wrong and they can prove it was the power-adder.

I like both, and honestly, I'll probably get whichever one I feel like that day.:D Magnachargers and STS Turbos are both at the very top of my list.

Posters Note: 90% of this is regurgitated information that I've collected from many different places. I haven't installed either, YET. But I've been reading up and looking into it for a long time.

Installation varies with all of them...so I don't think there's any "this is easier than this one" to worry about if you get a kit.

Turbochargers are driven off of the exhaust gasses, essentially using wasted energy. Very few Turbochargers are subject to noticeable lag anymore. But generally, the bigger the Turbo; the more prone it is to lag. If you're getting an under-hood setup, then there's going to be much more heat under there, but if you go the STS route, you don't need to worry about that, since the turbos are mounted in the rear of the car where the mufflers used to be. Turbos (so it's said) don't sap power from the engine to operate. I think they do; just not as much as superchargers. They provide decent low-end power, and excellent high-end power, but again this is all subject to the size of the Turbo.
A key selling point of turbochargers is that if you want to increase power, just "turn up the boost", because there's no mechanical linkage to the engine limiting the Turbo's speed. They also tend to increase fuel economy when they're not making full-boost, which is why OEMs are usig them more widespread.

Superchargers come in a few different types; There's Roots, Twin-Screw, and Centrifugal. They all increase power, and they all give you a seat-of-the-pants feeling, but only the first two do it best.;) The centrifugal-type is basically a Turbocharger driven by a belt, so it comes into full-bost at your highest-rpm, and not before. If you're going to put serious money into Forced Induction...I'd stay away from these. The Roots-style is what GM is using on the ZR1, and CTS-V. It's called positive displacement for a reason; it will increase power ALL the way up the engine revs. So you're essentially driving a bigger engine. The Eaton blowers only use 1/3 hp (taken from their site) at idle and cruise thanks to the bypass valve, so they don't constanly drain power from the engine unless you get on it. Twin-Screw does the same thing, but more efficiently. Because instead of using lobes, that are prone to backflow, and 'leakage' it uses (basically) a screw to push the air in. This style is more advanced, and more difficult to machine, which means it costs more than a roots-style.

ALL of them are directly linked to the engine via a belt. So in order to increase the power coming out of them, you typically have to change a pulley to get it spinning faster. However, roots and screw-type

I like this article, but you might try Howstuffworks.com for a little more info...
http://www.automotivearticles.com/Su...charger_.shtml

Hope that helped a little bit.

It really comes down to how much work you are willing to put into your forced induction setup to make power. Both a supercharger and a turbo charger will make significant amounts of power but both have their advantages and disadvantages.

In my experience turbos have the ability to make more power then superchargers, especially in dual turbo setups, however it is not just as simple as bolting a turbo and new exhaust manifold to get that power. In order to really take advantage of a turbo you also have to do some significant work on the engine including changing the camshaft and engine timing, compression ratios, and head designs to name a few. By no means an easy weekend project but the results can be phenomenal.

Superchargers on the other hand I think provide the best bang for the buck for getting more power out of an engine, especially a larger engine where the torque loss required to drive the SC is only a small percentage of the starting torque. But more importantly anyone can take a supercharger and bolt it to the intake manifold and realize significant power gains without any other mechanical changes to the motor, a true weekend project. Sure a supercharged engine will benefit from all the additional changes really necessary for a turbo, but you will see far better power improvements from a stock motor with a supercharger then you will with a turbo.

Bottom line is dollar for dollar my money is on a supercharger for forced induction. Plus that whine that comes from the sc is just a bitchin sound to hear going down the road... :D

Of course that's just my opinion, I could be wrong.

why not both? why not run a supercharger for the instant power off the line so you don't have to brake boost. and then big big turbo that spools up slow for the top end where the supercharger saps power? hmmmm so hard.

i cant vote i say both......here is y if i get a v8 ill supercharge it maby twin it yes i said twin supercharge......i want to get my hands on 2 prochargers and do a custome twin supercharge to it......v6 ill twin turbo it all the way

The only real reason that I can think of would be the cost involved with all of the custom engineering and fabrication involved with that setup... but if money were no object then sure why not... Hand over blank check and keys, and have a 1,000 hp+ monster handed back to you... :thumbsup:

The old diesel trucks and fire engines used both a turbo and supercharger. And some of the cobra guys are doing it too.

http://www.musclemustangfastfords.co...bra/index.html

http://www.hellionpowersystems.com/

I guess with enough money you really can make a mustang fast!:sm0:

talk about sick

yea thats pretty sick.

id be getting the base V8 so probaly start with around 400-430 hp.

right away id look for pulleys, throttle body, exhaust, coldair intake, and then look for the "engine steriods"

so right now it seems like with all that, and with finances in mind, a Roots supercharger would be the way to go?

Before you do any type of forced induction, do very thorough research. If you do not know the pros and cons of each already, we cannot advise you. You should be on the verge of a degree in physics before you install any type of forced induction. It is neither simple nor easy to install nitrous oxide, a turbocharger, or a supercharger. Get some books on each type of forced induction and learn about them. Make a class of it before you consider installation. Failure to do this may result in a motor without pistons.

I do not mean to pick on any of your opinions with this post, but this is the best advice I can give. All of us posting in this thread are probably underinformed about the specifics of forced induction. It is not as simple as bolting on a few tubes and turning the key. Do yourselves a favor and do the hard research work before you do the FI build.

I agree 100% with everything else you wrote; research your brains out, otherwise bad things can happen very easily, but........a degree in Physics?:iono:

well i hope i didnt come across as implying id be installing these myself... im a journalism major haha.

but yes this is the tip of the ice berg as far as the research goes, ill continue to build on this and use it as a starting point on which to build.

just a couple more questions...

how do turbos compare to superchargers in way of gas milage?

and i have recently had the chance to ... play ... with one of my family members 06' Saab Turbo. and i have to say the lag on that turbo is horrible. i dont know what kinds of turbos were used in those cars etc. but id hope they have better equipment now???

I also agree that a power adder should not be taken lightly or done without research, however several companys are taking the guess work out of it for some of the newer cars. I'm talking mostly about complete kits that include a programer preset for the boost range it produces and all the necissary hardware. These kits often run from 3,000-6,000 dollars and the speed shops who would be willing to install such a kit would cost another small fortune. I feel confident that installation of one of these kits shouldn't be to difficult.

Turbos are generaly more mpg friendly.

In other words, have a very thorough understanding of Newtonian physics and how they relate to your motor. It can be an associate's degree!

I'm still not getting it. (I'm probably thinking way too much into it:rolleyes:) But being a backyard mechanic, who has a thorough understanding of all thing Internal Combustion isn't enough? Especially as these companies put out almost idiot-proof kits.

An LS3 with a procharger, that will get you in the mid 550 HP range

Obviously, I'm exaggerating. I just think that a thorough understanding of how the engine works with and without forced induction makes a big difference. You don't want to blow your motor. You also don't want to look like an idiot at the track explaining your gains with forced induction; you'll look like a 16-year-old with a JDM clone talking about how great your car is. When doing something elaborate to your car, you need to be right about everything. If you aren't right about FI, you could end up really hurting your car and maybe endangering your life or the lives of your passengers. Engines are underestimated in the danger category. What happens when your beam breaks and you have a rogue piston bouncing around? You lose a lot of power and that speeding semi behind you rolls over you and your 3 passengers.

• Cheap—don't be a ricer
• Fast—you know you want it
• Reliable—always important for safety
• Pick 2

Wow Blur you have kind of a dark outlook on things. lol-jk
But seriously I wouldn't be quite so dark and gloomy about it, if everyone was this cautios we wouldn't be drivin these crazy fast Automobile thinga-majigers at all. I have learned everything I know about cars by a balance of research, trial-error, and an ocassional question when I find somone "in the Know." Just be smart and safe when your trying something new.

yea... well is there something specfically that i should make sure that i have to support the added power of the FI? i mean i dont plan on blowing my engine so i WILL do the research into it, but is there something specific ud like to share?

Depends on how MUCH you're going to be boosting the engine.

If you go high-boost, I (no expert) reccomend at least a stronger crank. But if you go all out it would be worth looking into full rotating assemblies (crank, rods, pistons), that give you a lower compression ratio than stock. At this point, it's smart to get an engine builder involved; and have some performance shop tune the engine....

On the safe side, though, stock engines can normally take 5-7psi of boost without starting to break things. That's good for about 40-50% increase in power, which is more than I think anybody would use out on the street.:iono:

It really all depends on how much boost you want to run. You can usually run 7 to 10 pounds of boost (the ideal range for a stock motor imho is right where Dragon said between 5 to 7 lbs) on a stock motor without causing any damage. Anything more then that and you have to start considering things like a strengthened crank, stronger rods, better rings, cylinder wall thickness (really only an issue on blocks that have been overbored, but I don't know how thick of sleeves GM is putting on the LS3 and their new DI V6 blocks), and since you have the motor cracked open at that point you might as well put in some forged pistons and change out the camshaft. The other thing to consider too is once you start getting into that realm you have to start considering the impact on more then just the motor. Once you have a motor that is making over 650hp or so you now have to have your tranny rebuilt to handle the power and a new drive shaft. Depending on the rear end they put in there is also the possibility of having to change out the diff and axle shafts, but usually you dont have to mess with the rear end until you are north of the 700hp mark... (If there is one good thing that F*rd ever made it was the 9" rear end, although I have to admit the 12 bolt made by strange engineering is a really slick and bulletproof rear end...) Your point of failure is always your weakest link (duh) but I have been messing around with forced induction for enough years now to say without hesitation that it is one sure fire way to find that weakest point. I also have been doing it long enough to say I would not hesitate to put a mild supercharger (7 lbs max boost) on a stock motor without any concerns about stress failures.

I would like to go all out on mine, but I probably won't do anything for awhile. These motors are pretty tough. I don't know the specifics on the LS3 but the motor builder at GMMG has said the stock LS1 crank and rods are good up to 1000hp. I don't know if the LS3 crank is the same or not. But you can't just up the power output of the motor and leave it at that. You will start breaking other drivetrain parts. Normally I would say I would buy the highest HP version and leave it alone until the warranty expires, then start adding power with a turbo or SC. But now that GM has the 5year/100K powertrain warranty, that would be awhile. Although I'm sure it won't be offered on a SC factory motor, like Dodge has done. It would be nice if it was covered by the same warranty though. :D I have a factory turbo car.Its nice, but modding it is tricky and expensive. Its Japanese and an 87 model but I'm sure a GM factory turbo/sc car would be a lot easier to mod. The electronics are a lot more modder friendly than they were in 87.

This could go on forever. But Blur puts it best. His Pick 2 statement is very true.

Even if the car is originally FI from the factory, a great deal of research is needed to upgrade to the right sized unit.

03 Cobra guys who just throw on a huge Kenne Bell on a stock engine can be as far up shit creek as a guy with a Evo 8 just throwing on a GT40R sized turbo.

Sizing your induction method is important because it will determine engine life, where the powerband is optimized, and overall driviability.

My general opinion on if I was to pick any combination of the two on a originally NA engine such as a LS3:

Cheap and Reliable: Supercharger, Commom Street Size (P1SC, D1SC, V2-SQs and etc), low boost (5-7lbs.), stock engine, dyno tuned conservatively.

Cheap and Fast: Turbo system with correctly sized turbos, mild boost (8-10lbs), stock engine, dyno tuned aggressive, and prayer.

Fast and Reliable: Turbo system with correctly sized turbos, built engine with forged internals (low comp), cam spec for turbo application, heads designed for boost applications (I hope LS9 and LSA heads will work with LS3 block without modding the block and the LS3 intake works witht the heads), good intercoolers system (street: air to air, with maybe water/meth injection if taken to the track; or track only: air to water with ice water res), and dyno tuned conservatively.

I prefer the latter, but prolly consider between Cheap/Reliable and Cheap/Fast if going FI:

Me: Turbo system with correctly sized turbos with room to grow, low boost @ 7lbs, stock engine, conservatively tuned, mild boost, and turbo app cam.

Im hoping that APS comes through.

Definitely turbo. With "conservative tuning" as Jinx said it will make the engine live its years whilst having some serious kick :)

BTW, what are the expectations on how much will one for a Camaro (DI 3.6L) could cost? And how many ponies could it add to the 280-300 of stock engine?

ive been a big fan of vortech so i think im going to stick with them and put one on my camaro.

i'm a fan of Positive displacement blowers. the New eaton TVS unit is nice, but i love twin screws. love the tq curve and u get nearly as much power out of it to an equivalent centri blower. turbo's u get incredible power out of em but lack a nice tq curve. plus i love the whine of a PD blower. my cobalt with an intake screams, i need to pulley down and really hear it whine. and second someone comes out w/ either a twinscrew, tvs or mp122 kit for the camaro, i'm so gettin it. more leaning towards tvs and twinscrew.

Magnuson

http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u..._2SP_A0516.jpghttp://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u...iefinished.jpghttp://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u..._magnavolt.jpg
http://frame.revver.com/frame/480x360/397455.jpg
http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u..._reservoir.jpghttp://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u...gie/th_TCM.jpghttp://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u...h_DCP_1810.jpg
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I haven't read this whole thread, so I don't know if what I'm about to say has been covered already.

Superchargers are parasitic, meaning they need power to make power BUT the power is there the instant the petal hits the floor.

Turbos do not need power to make power, they run off the exhaust fumes, it might take a little while for the power to wind up (it should be instant if you have your turbo sized right, but most people don't get that, so you hear people complain about lag...these people typically have turbos the size of dinner plates..:bonk:) But really, a turbo will make more power than a S/C (usually) while running less boost, therefore it is not as hard on the motor.

Here is a write up on turbos for anyone who wants to read it, yes its long, and yes it talks about turbocharging a mustang, but its still a good read.

http://forced4.com/v6project1.html

Well, if a 210 hp mustang can see 420ish (believe it was 417) with a turbo, I'd say we could see over 500...

Have you seen the torque curve for the (turbo charged) '08 Cobalt SS?

Here are links to the specs for GMs 07 & 09 engines. Checkout the fast Cobalts.
http://media.gm.com/us/powertrain/en...2007/07car.htm
http://media.gm.com/us/powertrain/en...009a/09car.htm

Both can be great additions to the engine, obviously. Turbo's usually produce more peak power, but Superchargers have instant power... it's a tough one. APS (air power systems), STS, and others, has been producing some GREAT turbo kits, whereas Vortech, Procharger, Magnuson, and others have created GREAT supercharger kits... I guess we'll just have to wait and see what's offered for our camaro's... either way, you're probably looking to spend around 10k :rolleyes:

It won't be worth it for the gains when you could buy the V8 for the price of the V6, turbo parts and labor..etc..