My theory about the Z/28
 

Didn't want to turn the other thread off topic: "What we want to see in and on the Z/28". Most people in that thread had some pretty good ideas what we would like to see the Z/28 hit the showrooms with. Most had alot of throwback ideas.

I hate to sound like Buzz Killjoy here, but do to GM financial situation, and needing to make money we may see a lot of "off the shelf" parts in/on the Z/28 if it comes out. Also to keep the cost down and make it affordable/compete with the competition. GM CEO hopes to break even by the middle of next year so hopefully more development takes place after that.

Models: We may see 1Z/28 and 2Z/28 options that mirror the current SS models
Price: We might see a $10-$15K price jump from the fully loaded SS.
Engine: LSA it is a proven engine that has enough power to compete with the competition. IF GM is developing a new engine it will be another one to two years before we see a Z/28
Suspension: GM may stuff the uplevel FE3 suspension or the CTS-V's Magnetic Ride Control w/Magnetic controled shocks. Also may equip it with the driver selectable stability/ride control of the Corvette/CTS-V. IF GM develops the upgradable suspension for the SS it may become standard on the Z/28
Brakes: Brembo, the GXP, SS, and CTS-V has them. The Z/28 may have larger cross drilled or slotted rotors.
Transmission: TR-6060 and the 6L90-E
Other: We may see some nice powered Recaro seats, Pilot Sport tires/Runcraps, 15/20 MPG:D, Launch Control stays, Body upgrades, hopefully more OEM aftermarket from GM.


:yikes:

Agree... the more off the shelf parts they can pull into a "Z" car the quicker we will see the car and the more likely it is to get past the accountants. Looking forward to hearing more on the Z as we move forward. Had my first chance to drive the car (3 day AVIS rental, yes it was an SS) and get goosebumps just thinking what a Z would be like to drive!

Roger

why wouldn't they use off the shelf parts, with the high performance cars they have? i don't see a lot changing other than the engine. It's still going to have 20 inch wheels. The suspension will be stiffer, but it's not like they need special parts for that. I don't see a 1Z28 and a 2Z28. I think it'll come loaded , mostly, with just a couple options.

I thought no matter what engine is in the Z28 it was already going to be almost 2 yrs. before we see a Z28?

I agree with your theory...pretty solid logic! :D

Just a couple notes of interest:
Engine: I doubt that they'll be developing an all new engine, like you. But it's not impossible that they would modify one for this specific application, (ala L99/LS3).
Suspension: The SS is already equipped with FE3, and the magnetic ride control and driver-selectable ride control is one in the same. More than anything else, I want to see this system in the car. :bow:
Other: If Ford can get the GT500 a rating of 16/22...dang it if Chevy can't at least match that. ;)

I really don't care what it is...so long as the price is right, I'm just overjoyed that the Z is coming back!! :happyanim:

The point is I don't think that GM will develop:suspension, brakes, tranny, engine for a Z/28. Like they did with the ZR1, CTS-V, ect.
Nobody knows, that was my guess. GM engine R&D takes time, no more crap engines. They can't help if they get crap from parts from an outsorced company.
I was not for shure about the FE3 but I think it will be something stiffer and more technical than the SS. I take info from Mags with a grain of salt but they are saying the SS does not handle very well.

Depends on what you are talking about by handling.... Are you talking about just cruising the streets or are you talking about pushing it through a apex at a furious pace?
If your talking about the track, Its nothing that a little suspension work cant cure! :thumbsup:

I'm pretty sure it can hold its own on the streets. I guess if pushed you can tell. True alittle money in the suspension can go along way. Hopefull GM will hook the Camaro up from the factory.

I'm sure Pedders was involved in the Z/28 suspension.
And that makes me happy!

Hope so. We'll see...

I have no theories about the Z28 yet, except regarding the piece I quote above. I think if GM goes that high in price it will be a disaster. Not saying they won't do it, just that it won't sell in high enough volumes to justify the line.

I think if the base model goes above high-30's to low-40's, they will be in trouble. Performance in the $30-$35k range is an empty field. Performance in the $50k+ range is packed, in some cases by other GM cars.

What I want to know is... when do we see some pre-pros hit the street and get some spy shots of this beast. Secondly, will GM have a Concept or Push car for car shows in the following year.

:word:

:word: I sure hope so :thumbsup:

I'm not following you. What I'm saying based off Camaro's website that the 2SS starts at $34K, the Z/28 maybe $10k-$15K on top of that like $44K-$50K. I don't think we'll see a performance car with 500+hp under $40K.

Huh?

I understand that, but there's nothing special about a performance car at that price. Pricing it like that will only net the die-hard Camaro enthusiasts who also have money to spend, which is a very small part of the buying public.

The Corvette starts at $48k (same price range), Corvette convertible $53k (~$5k more) the GT500 $46k (same price range), the GT500 Convertible $51k (same price range). And even though it's not the same kind of performance, the 370Z Nismo would be a comparative bargain at $39k ($5k-$10k less). The Cadillac CTS-V would only be $9k-$14k more, the BMW M3 coupe would be between $8k and $14k more, the Mercedes C63 AMG would be between $7k and $13k more.

They'd be crazy to sell a Z28 in that range, it would be slaughtered.

You're not making very much sense. :(
For one, they don't intend to sell this model in volume. 2-5k...maybe. If they did, they wouldn't have waited to make it. So, perhaps you might rethink the target buyer for the Z?

The Corvette is a totally different car, marketed to an entirely different crowd. It is not competition, so strike it off the list.

Convertibles? huh?

The Nismo Nissan is different as well. The SS already outperforms it...so I don't understand how you'd consider it a bargain compared to a Z28? :iono:

The Cadillac...is again, different -- a 4-door, LUXURY sedan...not competition for the Z, and since you're taking issue with a 15k increase over a stock SS...how can you quote 9-14k more for a V as "competiton" Same for the last two you listed....:iono:

That leaves the GT500...anddd....the GT500. The performance of which costs roughly $45 grand. You can't get there for less. Honestly, unless they don't offer similar performance Z...I don't understand why it wouldn't (and shouldn't) cost in that same range. :iono:

I'm sorry man but I'm still not following you. Many people have purchased the GT500 because it is the cheapest 500hp sports car you can buy. The other cars you have listed is not in the same league as the Camaro. The only car that it can compete with is the GT500. Ohh then you have the 425HP Dodge Challanger SRT8 priced at $43000(I know a guy that drove off the lot $50k). If your expecting the Z/28 to be priced under $40k not a chance.
I agree.

You don't have to worry, at that price they definately won't sell the model in volume regardless of whether they plan it that way or not.

If you think people spend ~$50k without looking at every car out there, you are insane.

And if your pricing turns out to be correct, the GT500 will still be the cheapest 500hp+ sports car you can buy. Get it?

I'm not worrying...and that's the point I attempted to make...selling in volume is not a priority for this car. So why kill themselves to try and price it like it is?

Well...it's a good thing I'm not in a nut-hospital then, cause they'd kick me out.

I KNOW people look at every car in the price-range...but half of the cars you listed were OUT of the price-range...and no car (besides the GT500) offers the same combination of features the Z28 does. So while a consumer may look at a bunch of similarly-priced cars just to see what's out there...they may only be in the market for a certain type. (ie. perhaps they want back seats...well, that strikes the Corvette and 370z right off the get-go) :iono:

Dude I totally heard a theory that they're going to go with a LIO470 instead of the LSA in the Z/28. Factory Garmin too! When will it end..?

Huh? Ford site says starting MSRP $46325.
http://www.fordvehicles.com/cars/mustang/models/

I know you didn't pick this up in my first post, but I don't believe you when you say GM is planning a limited production run of the Z28. It doesn't make sense, economically. They'd lose money, and there's no need to pump up recognition of Camaro's as they already have a waiting list 6 months long. Plus the convertible would do a better job of that than a Z28 since they can make money off convertibles.

No, they are not out of the price range. If you can swing $50k for a muscle car, you can swing $60k for a wider variety of cars. Put it this way, a $50k Z28 fully financed would be ~$1000/month. The CTS-V would be ~$1,160/month and has the exact same engine and many more features. Everybody would consider that.

Add on top of that, they are both GM cars. How does GM win if a prospective CTS-V buyer purchased a Camaro instead? They lose $8k-$12k in revenue. And that's the good version. The bad version is the buyer figures out he can have a C63 AMG instead of either of those, and GM doesn't get a sale at all. Now GM's new Camaro has people thinking about muscle, but it's price has them thinking about luxury too. Bad news for GM.

Put it this way, a lot of people will buy muscle cars for $35k. Go much beyond that though and they not only expect more, whatever they expect is readily available from other car manufacturers as well as GM.

Really? You don't get that $46k is less than $50k? Or that it's less than the average between $44k and $50k? Or that even the GT500 with the convertible option is still within your projected price range for a Z28?

Let's just go back to the beginning, with the easy comparison. Let's say the Z28 and the GT500 are identically priced. What do you think the Z28 will have that the GT500 won't? What would prompt someone to buy a Z28?

You're skewing a lot of things in your favor for the sake of debate...which is fine, I guess...but, man is it a little irritating.

Please explain how they'd lose money? They have the V6 and SS Camaro, which are to make up the vast majority of their sales. They don't NEED the Z28 -- which is the main reason they shelved it during the summer turmoil. It's a frivolous addition to the lineup. You don't have to believe me...that's the beauty of free-will...but it WILL be a low-volume model. So take it or leave it, I guess...

Then.....At $50k, a Z28 would be in the same price-range as an SS by your logic...which means 60% of current Camaro buyers would consider that. Not the small, undetectable minority you were talking about in your previous post...so why are we having this debate?

And did you know that a large portion of Corvette-buyers are streching their dollar's worth to afford a base-version of that car? They don't have an extra 10 grand to spend...that's not chump-change. hmmm....
Then I suppose it's a ruddy miracle that Ford is selling GT500s....the outline you give about is simply the nature of the Industry, my friend.

If price was a buyers only consideration, and luxury trumps performance as you imply, then I'm positive we all would not be buying and driving Camaros...we could all be buying CTSs instead. But...that isn't happening. :rolleyes: A car this niche will attract a VERY closed-minded buyer. A buyer who knows exactly what he/she wants to buy...and only needs a company to offer it for him to purchase. It is very unlikely that these people will search so far out the segment for a car.

Really? Can you show me that study? I just don't agree with this...so fiercely, in fact...that I'm going to defend a Ford (which the Z28 should conceiveably be better than)...what is the world coming to?:facepalm:

Here goes: name me another car that can do what the GT500 does for $46,000 MSRP +/- $2000. It doesn't have to be better...just name another 2+2 coupe that can perform as well for that price. The M3 can, but that thing is well over $10,000 more (closing on $15,000 more).

I don't, personally, think a person who has the wherewithall to spend $60K on a musclecar is going to buy a Camaro, Challenger, or Mustang without knowing exaclty what they want. These cars are not going to be on the same field as any Merc or BMW in that price range except possibly handling, and straighline speed. Materials, ergonomics, electronic goodies and well, the image of what muscle cars were are probably likely to scary away any silverspooned buyer away from Camaro and even Corvette. These, I'm sure, are not the target for Z28 buys, nor Chally' and GT500s.

JMHO.

From post 15
Once again the GT500 is $46,000 the Vert is $51K. Seems like $46K is right in the middle. I'm going by internet prices because thats all I got to go by. People may pay more or less for one who knows, that goes for any car. I'm not saying that the Z/28 IS going for my predicted price range, that just seems like a competive sensable price range for one. What you think the Z/28 going to go for $35K-$40K???


You tell me? It might be the same reason why you got an Camaro over the Mustang? Isn't the fully loaded to the gills Mustang GT cheaper than a 2SS Camaro? Why would anyone buy a Camaro SS when you can have a cheaper Mustang GT. There is your answer.

I've supplied the reasons for all my arguments. I haven't heard any of you guys explain why the Z28 has to cost that much, or any reasons why people would buy it at that price other than "It's a Z28". At that price range, the Z28 mystique by itself isn't enough to convince ordinary people to buy it.

Because they won't sell at $50k. Whether the Z28 is frivolous will depend entirely on it's price.

Because you lack basic comprehension, I suppose. High-hp performance stands out @ $35k. It doesn't @ $50k.

No, I don't know that. Do you know that?

Does Ford have another high-hp car to sell? No. Then it's not a miracle, it's simply a lack of options.

I didn't say luxury trumps performance, I said performance and luxury trumps only performance.

Rofl. Yeah, that's one way of saying "not many people will buy it", I suppose.

Why not? Do you think people shopping for new cars give a crap about segments? I don't. I think they look at everything and buy what most appeals to them.

You've got our arguments backwards. Your argument assumes people buy cars in segments. I don't. I think the GT500 competes with the Corvette for sales, and I also think the Camaro SS competes with the GT500 for sales.

GM has performance cars in the GT500 price range, as well as above it. Why would they need another?

I'd put the Z28 in the $37k-$43k price range.

Horsepower. There's a hugh difference between GT hp and SS hp. That won't be true of the Z28 and GT500, at least if the 550hp LSA assumption is correct. The 2010 GT500 makes 540hp, who knows what it will be in 2012 when the Z28 comes out.

I can't really imagine that the Z28 will be too much more than a whiz-banged up version of the existing SS, all existing technology with all of the 'up' options as a base or starting point.

More than likely, they'll take all the things people complained about the SS not having or not having done well, and add or fix it. Add some Z28 specific badging
and 'special' wheels, hood, interior package etc and call it a day.

As long as GM can convince the target buying audience that the Z28 is 'special'
it'll sell like hotcakes and people will be happy again. Hell, I'd be o.k. with it.

Engine: LS7/LS9/LSA
Suspension: Existing, but with aftermarket coil-overs and lowered a bit
Body: New hood, spoiler and badges
Interior: They'll either go more muscle (minimalists) or add sparkly stuff and of course more leather
Colors: Possibly Z28 specific colors or combination's offered from the factory.
With Z28 specific stripes.
Transmission: Bullet-proofed/hardened version of existing TR6060 or 6L80E
may not even offer more than one...go either all manual or all auto.

No matter what they end up with, people will buy it, talk about it and be happy about it.

They do, what? If your talking about the Corvette wrong, its not in the same class as the GT500 two different cars. $37k-$43k not a chance, we hope, but that won't happen. I think $43k is the lowest.

Ahh there you go, so why would a Z/28 would be cheaper than a GT500 with nearly the same HP? And cost as much as a Challenger SRT8 with less HP? Keep in mind these are cars in the same class.

:facepalm:

I can't argue with a wall.

EDIT: And I don't appreciate you telling me I can't comprehend what I read. Perhaps you ought to not contradict yourself. :thumbdown:

:popcorn: Not quite as entertaining as the Ladies of Camaro5 thread but close :D

Who cares if it's in the same class? What people will buy is all that matters. What would the Z28 offer that the GT500 or the Corvette doesn't is what you should be asking. The prices will be the same.

Price (or performance for the price, if you prefer) is what the Camaro offers today, and that's why it's selling like hotcakes in a crappy economy.

Because they want to sell them. Do you think the guys at Dodge are patting themselves on the back for the Challenger SRT8 being priced higher than the Camaro SS? How are Challenger sales these days?

If there's nothing inherently better about a car relative to cars in the same price range, why would anyone buy it?

A 550hp Z28 would certainly be impressive, but it won't stand out at $50k. There will be other cars that offer exactly the same performance, and still other cars that have suped-up hp in the same range but also have superb handling, and still more cars that offer luxury plus suped-up hp.

Ditto.