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Features of a ZL1 NOT Required on a Z/28
In trying to rationalize a potential price point for an anticipated Z/28, several features of the $54,000-Base ZL1 seem to be redundant for a "track-based" ZEE. Some that come to mind:
* Rear Vision Package - Italian School of Race Car Driving: "What's behind you is NOT important..." * Magnetic Ride Control - Optional, with "enhanced FE4" as Standard * Body Color Roof Ditch Moulding - Optional, if even... * Mirrors, Exterior Heated w/Auto-Dim Driver's Side - Optional, part of 2ZE Package * Boston Accoustics, 9-speaker, 245 Watt - Optional * Wireless PDIM - Optional, part of Convenience Package * USB Port - Optional, part of Convenience Package * Heated Front Seats - Optional, part of 2ZE Package * Leather/Microfiber Seats - Optional, part of 2ZE Package * Driver's 6-Way Power Seat - Optional, part of 2ZE Package * Passanger's 6-Way Power Seat - Optional, part of 2ZE Package * HUD - Optional (?) * Universal Home Remote - Optional, part of Convenience Package * Map Pocket, rear of Passanger Seat - Optional, part of 2ZE Package * Trans/Diff. Coolers - Optional, part of Track Prep. Package ...and of course... * LSA - substituted by LS7 * 1LS Trim - Standard, with Manual Seats, cloth-covered Base Price, 1EZ37/LS7/MG9/FE4+ = $46,995 Sound about right? For those on a more restricted budget, with slightly reduced expectations, how about a 1SS + 1LE (w/MG9/MRC) + 3.73 gears = $41,500...? |
I don't understand all the talk about an LS7 over the LSA to save money? I thought the extra machining, titanium rods, etc, made the price gap between the two relatively small.
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Ground effects would have to go.
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as for the rest of the list sounds reasonable but I'm still on the wagon that we won't see an ls7 in the car. by the time the Z28 could be released DI will be making a main stream entry. |
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rear seats not required.
recaro front seats required |
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Z/28 > BOSS LS...not GT 500 When you compare the Z06 to the ZR1, performance-wise ('Ring time is only 3 seconds difference), a strong case can be made for a lower-contented, lower-priced, near-equal-performing, driver-rewarded Camaro...worthy of a certain i-car-nic badge... Besides, the price spread between a 2SS (mid-$30s) and the ZL1 (mid-$50s) needs to be bridged... |
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1LE + LS7 = Z28
Options: Better Stereo, USB, Leather/Microfiber Suede, Pedders Justice System, Wing Spoiler, Rear Seat - delete, HUD... Please add to the options list: |
I would say the HUD should be standard, lets the racer keep his eye's focused on the apex while still able to see telemetry data.
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LOWDOWN you've got it about right, but GM won't create a Z28 with all those deletes. It will be a retail street car, not a bare knuckle track racer. That said, you have to add back in quite a few bells & whistles for a price approaching $48,325.
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Actually, if you approach the original "content", above, from the other direction, what we'd have is: * 1SS * 1LS Trim - no 6-way Power Seats (weight-savings) * 1LE Mechanicals - as per SEMA concept, with LS3/MG9 and 3.73 gears 1SS/1LE > BOSS = $41,500 Z/28 - as above except: * MRC - Optional (function vs. weight-savings/sanctioning) * Delete LS3 - add LS7 Final result: Z/28 > BOSS LS Recaros, along with the trans/diff. coolers, would make a great Track Prep option, perhaps along with Rear Seat Delete (the "problem" with RSD is you now move into Corvette territory, you increase Insurance Rating...and you'll save less than 30 lb...more likely to be a DIY). |
Pete said Pedder's could probably tinker with the MRC, offer a bit stouter and shorter spring. Looks like MRC is gonna be standard moving forward, but a FE4 with Pedder's enhancements will be the way to go IMHO. LSA VS LS7 is a relatively small < a couple K if I remember correctly> difference in price. LS7 is a high rev engine, look at the HP and torque charts and see where the LS7 is still there at 7 grand, and probably pulls beyond that. Given that it is a blueprinted motor with near bullet proof hardened bottom end and reciprocals, <there was a post where upper end wall thickness was an internal problem I think?>, however, 7 grand is not the top end of the RPM envelope IMHO, and that platform has the goods to hit production lines as is. The cuiser weight Champion.!! :chevy:
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The difference in weight between a ZL1, as equipped, and an LS7'd "Base" 1ZE, as listed, could be 200-250 lb. ZL1 contains 2SS+ trimmings, all the electronic doodads, MRC etc. etc.
ZL1 = 4120 1SS = 3850 (-270) LS3 = LS7 Enhanced FE4 = very little over FE4, and less than MRC MG9 + Brembo 6/4 + HD Diff - (2) 6-way Seats - Forged 20s etc. = 3875/3920 end result...3875 or so with enhanced FE4, 3920 with MRC. |
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I like the Z28 moniker.
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I don't see where you are getting the $8k out of the base price. The MRC being an option is a good chunk but most of the other items listed do not really add up. The LS7 has to be more expensive than the LSA, plus I'd bet is on the chopping block.
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LS7 "viability" has been beaten to death, here, over the last 6 months...search "Wixom" in the Z/28 Section...which, BTW, has AT LEAST a 2-year lifespan, according to "sources".
Pricing Rationale: $54,095 (ZL1 Base) - $46,995 (projected) = $7,100, or $5,500 with (MRC - enhanced FE4)... ZL1 is equipped with features well beyond a 2SS...which is $3,600 more than a 1SS. 1SS is roughly = 1LT in car content (excluding driveline)...which is $2,000 more than 1LS. That's $5,600 in non-mechanical content...NOT including ZL1-specifics. LS7 crate engine - LS3 crate engine (as per GMPP) = $7,000, about $250 less than LSA...and 100+ pounds less, all by itself... In the past, when Selective Ride (MRC) was available on Corvette as a free-flow option, the option price was about $2,000. Also made by Delphi. IF non-MRC (- $2,000), add for enhanced FE4 (bars 'n bushings)...on a substitution basis, call it $500...NET of $1,500. The HD Tremec (MG9) and HD 3.73 Diff/Axles and 6/4 Brembos and forged '20s/Goodyears are a constant, be it ZL1, Z/28, or 1LE. |
Lowdown, haven't I heard this all before? ;)
SEARCH AND LEARN! |
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OK guys. I'm out. Sorry for butting into your Z28 discussion here...
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If there will be a Z/28, it is probably not going to get an LS7 hate to break it to you. If anything I would guess an LS3 with a more aggressive cam, upgraded exhaust and a beefed up suspension, better designed CAI and some weight reductions.
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Low-$40s = 1SS/1LE, pretty much as shown @ SEMA, only minus the "showcar" trimmings (leather 'n such). Offer it Base as a 1SS, and offer a 2SS-style upgrade to satify "those" folks... Upper-$40s DOES afford (no pun) a legitimate opportunity for an LS7'd badge-worthy Gen-5 Camaro, to ably compete against ANY Dearborn-borne BOSS, as outlined above... I do NOT expect a 1LE to be priced below a BOSS. GM simply doesn't NEED to. Same with the BOSS LS competitor. What's THE most outstanding track-able Camaro POSSIBLE for something between $45 and $50? And, if it fits the budget, WHY would we "settle" for less than the LS7?! If GM massages a 6.2L, it will still only be a 6.2. The LS7 will still equal/exceed the 6.2's "warrantiable" power and, left unmodified/unboosted, the LS7 will live a very l-o-n-g and charming life. And willingly tame the bucking broncos... The problem with a "massaged" LS3? It doesn't exist in 60/100 (OE warranty), emissions-compliant, certified-'n-validated form...and that takes time and money that, apparently to this point, ain't happenin'... Every dollar $pent on an LS3 makes a buck closer to an LS7... WIXOM: According to "sources", there is a bright-shiny future till summer-'13, at least. Plans beyond then are "incomplete"... If an LS7'd ZEE was intro'd, and demand for the car was "as anticipated", Wixom would be assured an even brighter-shinier future! Gen-5 "LT1": NO ONE is telling anything about this engine's n/a abilities. Unless there's 470+ hp AND torque, it will deliver LESS than an LS7, which is required to move a 300+ lb. heavier Camaro vs. the power-to-weight of the BOSS. You need more than trick suspension and grippy rubber to track-match the BOSS... You need to ably move 3850-3920 pounds of Oshawa-oozing muscle, or at least make it THINK its muscle...and NOT Darlington Beach moss... The other unanswered questions about this engine are, when will it be fully available, and will that leave enough time to implement a badge-worthy Gen-5 Camaro as it nears its sunset? Again...NO concrete answers available...yet... Stay tuned. |
I'm going to chime in here for a second, lots of good thoughts/ideas in this thread and many of the participants here have certainly been here long enough to have been round and round with all of the info. And yet the key questions remain unanswered, will there be a 5th gen. Z/28 and if there is what engine will be used? I feel that time is slowly starting to slip away for a 5th gen. Z/28 and I really can't think of a better body design to showcase a new Z/28 with heritage cues. I hope we'll see one, but if we don't I'm really looking forward to a 6th gen where they may get the weight down to something more reasonable. That said, the '69 Z/28 Camaro was my all time favorite and I would hate to see the opportunity missed for a 5th gen. version.
Clyde |
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Funny how, 10 months ago right after the ZL1 announcement, the "speculation" began...and 1LE and Z/28 are still being bantied about...
http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showth...=128589&page=5 And there's STILL room for BOTH...only the "terms of reference" have changed a bit... |
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Anybody know if they are holding any more relevant performance secrets?? |
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1) I wonder how Chev dealers are gonna feel when some of these ZL1s show up...and the "owner" DOESN'T? Those $5-10,000 deposits, some dealers were asking for, will suddenly make $en$e... 2) Wixom, and LS7 capacity, explained in post #837: http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showth...149090&page=34 DG, having been a member in good standing throughout this ZEE discussion, has the numbers "in his pocket" as well. 3) For the reason you sight, above (ZL1 price), Z/28s with LS7s priced in the mid-$40s could keep Wixom going...all by itself! And, like the BOSS is to the Shelby GT500 in certain cases, not much "sacrifice" would be required to purchase a ZEE vs. a ZL1... |
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As for Wixom, it will be interesring to see what happens. Everything they make today is likely going away in the next 3 years. It is a cool facility that shows how entrepreneurial a big company and its union can be. Outstanding facility staffed by really good people. Very small operation. |
Again, in its "hay day", circa '07, about 10,000 LS7s were built...Z06 + GMPP crate engines. '11 was predicted, mid-August, to total less than 5,000 for all three versions...
Could Camaro sell 5,000+ mid-$40s LS7'd ZEEs, even in "this" market? I believe it would...as a MINIMUM...which would easily return Wixom to "capacity", and probably take up virtually ALL the slack, there, as the dry LS3 and LS9, like the C6 Vette, ride off into the sunset... You have obviously been taken in by the mass hysteria for the all-conquering ZL1...at now $54Gs+...along with literally 100s if not 1,000s of others. And, by your own admission, at this price you're having 2nd thoughts. AND you're NOT alone... You, and most of the other "head-scratchers", are NOW potential ZEE buyers...if, as Drew Carey now sez, "The Price Is Right"... |
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LS7 is a $7,000.00+ premium over the LS3, just for the motor, not counting the added cost for the trans/diff needed for the extra horses. LS7 car would get into ZL1 price territory real quick. |
Ummm Lowdown I believe your mathematical prowess is required.
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If ya want bling, head to another model/forum section. Having said that (and I have many-many times), it does NOT mean that, to justify the broadest sales base NECESSARY, you can't have yer back-up camera and rearview mirror Gold Chain Holder...as an OPTION... With deference (and NO direct connection) to Gene Simmons, KISS...Keep It Simple (stupid?) Satchmo... Skip around the ZEE Section, do a wee bit o' readin', and the Business Case is present...and, like the car, BULLET-PROOF...and, most important of all, BUILDABLE...NOW!!! |
Yes it can be had in the mid $40's.
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