Bull's F16 Updated
 

Bull has built an awesome 5th Gen with a bit of power.

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/attach...1&d=1365966811

He has been running a Pedders Justice Package with 305/30/19s all round. Last week we decided to upgrade to the new rear Z style bar, increase the spring rates to 12kg and add camber plates.

The first step is mission critical. It is the classic example of measure twice. Cut once.

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Finding the center line for the camber plates requires only a string and ruler. Once you have the string evenly dividing the strut tower holes on both sides the rest is cake.

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We setup Bull's Camaro for maximum adjustment. During the initial installation we relived the upper slots in his Suppercar Coilovers to increase the available negative camber. With his camber plates he won't be using all the available camber adjustment unless we stagger his setup for an oval track. Since Bull drives as hard as his call sign implies we maxed out everything.

https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphot...59624319_n.jpg

We can get to -4.7. The two small holes allow access to the camber plate screws at -4.3 using the slots in the clevis or -2.6 with no camber at the clevis.

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Bull Got Camber!

We roughed in the alignment and went to work on corner weights. Bull's Camaro has extra engine stuff including junk in the trunk. We are within 6 pounds or perfection on a 4116 pound automobile without moving weight around the vehicle. The total ride height differences were under 9mm divided between four wheels.

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We are within 6 pounds or perfection on a 4116 pound automobile without moving weight around the vehicle. The total ride height differences were under 9mm divided between four wheels. As this is a custom Camaro, the exact ride heights are not relevant to other Camaros. Running 660mm ride heights all round is relevant to all 5th Gen Camaro owners. When all is said and done there was less than 9mm total variation in ride heights to get this balanced.

We did not align the car with just the driver. Bull uses his Camaro as a street car and frequently has a passenger. Be ware of this Camaro when his daughter is driving. From what I can gather she is her father's daughter.

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Let's talk alignment numbers.

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We maxed out Bull's Caster using Pedders Full Alignment Bolt Kit. Caster is good. SAI is better for steering geometry and feel. We added a 1 point to SAI under all alignment positions. As I type this I just noticed that the Right side Street and Track numbers are wrong. In full track mode we are 14.3 left and 13.9 right. In street mode we are 12.9 left and 12.8 right. The improved SAI SAI is a benefit of installing Pedders Dual Bearing Camber Plates.

For street driving we are TOE in 0.15 on both side. We would like to be closer to 0.00 Toe, but the toe moves out aggressively as we add negative camber. For Bull's use we felt that -1.00 Camber and Toe IN 0.15 was a good split of handling and tire wear for daily driving.

Pedders Dual Bearing Camber Plates are indexed. That is critically important if you want to change camber setting track side and drive home with a tire friendly alignment. Loosen the set screws in the camber plates and you get a track alignment. -2.6 degrees of camber with 0.80 toe OUT. Bull's Camaro turns in and turns in now.

Bull is running Pedders new Z bar and has an enormous amount of power at the rear wheels. We settled in with a comfortable Toe IN of 0.10 per wheel in the rear. Rear camber is a compromise. It would be nice to run more rear camber for high speed mid turn. If we increase the rear camber to -1.3 Bull will burn through rear tires on the street as though they were disposable. Putting all that power down requires a stable IRS. We used EP1201HD bushing for maximum control.

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When you look closely at the images and data, it is clear that Pedders delivers a clear upgrade in the control surface areas. Our numbers are conservative. We have ridges in our EP1201 series of bushes so we only calculated the ridged areas - even though they compress when installed.

How does Bull's Camaro drive? I am sure he'll stop by and let you know.

That is freakin' WICKED!!!!!

T.

GO HAWKS!!!!!!

beautiful car Bull.

NICE! I'm jealous

Very nice man!

Nice, I need some Pedders in my car.

Awesome!

I need those wheels.

Wow Pete, just saw this!!!

Awesome write up. I've been disposed as a range officer at my local USPSA club. The past 3 days i have been officiating 300 shooters from all around the country and globe for that matter. Just spent 12 hrs today in the Texas sun and wind and 10 hrs yesterday. Match, called Double Tap Championship, ends tomorrow at about 1400 hrs....hopefully. This match is usually the 2nd or 3rd biggest pistol match in the nation. I have to mow my damn yard still.

I will give a write up as to my experience with this latest update to my extraordinary experience with Pedders when i recover a bit later in the week. Let me say the car is on frickin rails, if thats possible for a 4112 lb car!!!! Mine is!!!

Here's a little clip from the DTC match a couple years ago when i was an Range officer on stage 2. You can see my fat arse at the 41 second mark and up to the minute mark on the video of one of the better shooters. My job was to check for safety infractions record the hits and time for scoring purposes. Im in the white shirt with the clipboard.....I love paperwork btw!!! Couldnt find any vids of this years so far or last years but didnt look real hard...time for motrin, beer and bed!!!!!!!!!

Bull we have almost same cars, same power and mods. Looking to get my car on rails!

Call Pedders!!! Read "The Book"..... that's all it takes!

Alright, sitting here at work and finally have a few minutes to reply here since it's my car.

Drove down the 5 hrs to Fredericksberg on a Thursday a couple weeks ago. Had an appt with American Muffler and Brake for the install of ZL1 rear sway, new FE4 control arms 12 kg coils and adjustable camber plates.

I had the Justice package with supercar coilovers and sways installed a year and a half ago by the same place. American Muffler and Brake is who Pete and Pedders uses and are located about a half hr from Pedders HQ. If you live anywhere near, it is worth the drive out to see Heath and Jimmy and American Muffler. Pedders uses these guys for a reason. I like them also because they let you get dirty right along with them.

Sure enough, about 4 months after this, Pedders came out with the ZL1 sway bars for the FE3 Camaro. I had it all set up to drive back down for the re-alignment (due to new wheels/tires setup) and the ZL1 sway. Two days prior to this appt. I popped my #5 piston on my factory LS3 running 11psi. Car sat for 9 months waiting for my HKE built LSX 427. Finally got it back on the road.

During the time the car was down, Pedders came out with the new camber plates. I needed this due to the fact that i was runningn -2.5 deg camber 100% of the time. Tires weren't gonna last too long.

So, i ordered the ZL1 sway, 12 kg coils, and camber plates. Huge thanks to JusticeDeb, she busted her ass getting me these 12kg coils sent in record time from Australia!

Anyway, i show up at American Muffler at 0800 Friday morning for the install and alignment. All is going well an hour into when Pete shows up out of the blue to oversee the install!:bow:

When we remove the front wheels there is an unexpected development. I have a chord showing on the inside edge of the Bridgestone RE11 Potenza. This was due to running the -2.5 deg camber. Not to worry, Pete gets on the phone and 1/2 hr later we have 4 new Michelin Pilot Super Sport 305/30 R19s on the way from San Antonio. They were due in at 1700 that afternoon, should be plenty of time.....right?

The install goes great, no major hiccups except for the time required to do everything perfectly, which they did. Pete even brought his equipment to perform an corner balance. As you can see above, this car is the epitomy of balance. The alignment took about 3 iterations to get perfect and by the time we finished Discount tire in Kerrville was closed. So i kept my hotel for another night......

Pete would have none of that, so off we drove to his home. Pete set me up right! Even paid for dinner that evening. Then, following dinner was a tasting of various levels of the finest Serbian plum brandys direct from Serbia. Pete is of proud Serbian descent!!! Ziveli Pete.

Next morning we drop the car off at Discount tire and Pete and his Wife Justice Deb and his three wonderful daughters take me to breakfast at IHOP!!!

Where are you gonna find customer service that even comes close to this????

The car is insanely sticky, the only time i have broken it loose is by staying on the throttle in turns when the rear starts to get a little loose, but it is very predictable. The fronts are dead solid perfect and no push at all. I imagine having 305/30 R19s have a little to do with that. Oh, this is all with the camber plates set to my street setup. It only takes about 2 minutes to go from mild to wild and set in the -2.5 deg camber and agressive toe out.

I need to address my braking setup next then take the car out to Eagles Canyon raceway, 2.5 mile road course and see what it can really do.

Thanks again to Pete and Pedders!!!

Very nice man and can't wait to see how it does on the road course. Also that's some great customer service right there.

Forgeline DE3Ps 4 x 19 x 10.5" on all corners. Besides the Pedders suspension, the best mod i have made. Thanks Pete for the recommendation.

This is all you need to know to make this 4000# behemoth act like a damn 2000# Miata.

As you can see the smaller 19" wheels dont look too bad in those gigantic wheel wells.


http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=37333

great write up. wish i could drive to texas hehe

It is worth the drive just for the Q. We have better BBQ sold out of gas stations than you can find out there ;-)

Are you coming to C5FEST?

I miss Oklahoma's pork.

Wont be at fest.. Needs to be like in west texas next year and I will go....prob stay for a week or two and try to hit up some tracks as much as I could. I have brothers wearing green there.

Next year I really want to do one lap of america just need to find a co driver and a way to bring tools and tires and clothes and etc etc

Texas would be a great place for a C5FEST.

One Lap of America... I envision a grass roots network of support from C5 members and vendors. UPS clothes in advance. Return soiled clothing the same way. Stage the tires. Tools and pit crews on standby across the entire route :headbang:

thatd be fricken sweet. i figure ill have to get a hitch installed :( then tow a trailer with extra wheels and tires brake pads fluids tools etc then have a bag for me and co driver in the shelf area in back seat.

been readin about the first gen guy doing that with his. push comes to shove i can overnight pretty much anything now a days

4100lbs? How much junk is actually in the trunk, isn't stock like ~3800? Do the power adders add that much weight?

Yep.

power adders supporting mods and new block i was expecting a higher weight.

Bull,

We have to plan some time so you can teach me to fly and shoot :happy0180:

Sounds like a plan, you, in exchange, teach me how to drive this car the way it was built to drive.

I just finished replacing my oil cooler with an Earls unit that is about 40% bigger (16 ROW) and the car is running no hotter than about 220deg in city driving when before it would get to about 240-250 with the small 9 row cooler.

CTS-V brakes and dts 70 pads and i will be ready for my first track day at ECR.....yellow group....:laugh: Till i get checked out.

i must know how circut of america drives...when you going there?

I've got cts-v brakes on order with rb brake rotors. Looking to possibly upgrade to to zl1 swaybars next and then get corner balanced. Would love to see Pete's shop!!! I really want to get my car set up to pull 1.3 G's...I don't know where to go from here I've bought everything I can think of to get set up per the book.

Its not actually Pete's shop down in Fredericksberg, its the shop he uses and is 20 miles from Pedders. American Muffler and Brake. The rear ZL1 bar made a big difference over my Pedders FE3 32 mm bar. I love the camber plates BTW, takes about 2 minutes and Im at -2.7 deg camber.

I need to order the CTS-V brakes but am going with the CTS-V rotors per Pete's recommendation.

I've hit 1.46 Gs (measured on my Torque App) on a short radius 90 deg turn into my neighborhood. No push at all and only the slightest bit of looseness. The Pilot Super Sports and nice but not quite as grippy as my RE-11 Potenzas. Hopefully these will last longer.

Wow! nice Gs....

Aren't you worried about popping your side air bags? It's happened on a couple guys that road race. I think he said it was $3k to get them replaced at a dealer and he had to work hard to replace them on his own for $1.4k.

I pulled my air bag fuses at Eagles Canyon just in case. I would rather have piece of mind that they won't deploy. Just don't send your car off the track where you might actually need them.

Air bag deployment is very unusual on a road course. Very unusual. I know of only one instance and the data from the black box showed an extremely high G load indicative of a pending roll over. IMO, the G sensor glitched. My cars have 1,000s of test miles under extreme loads with no deployments on road courses.

The L/28 bags deployed on an autocross with a driveshaft failure. The shaft failure was incredibly violent with the resultant pounding tripping bag deployment.

If you watch the two videos of 5th Gen bag deployment, you'll see they occur under very aggressive tight maneuvers. IMO the computer was reading data that indicated a potential roll over. I don't consider these deployments accidental.

$3,000 is nothing in relation to a build like Bulls. A brush with a barrier, blown motor, tranny failure, and more easily equal or exceed a bag deployment repair. $3,000 is nothing compared to the injuries you may incur in a roll over or barrier road course incident. Three drivers died on track this week. Running road courses is a dangerous motorsport activity and sometimes expensive.

Bull,

I met a speaker years ago named Charlie Plumb. He spoke about the people that packed his physical parachute as well as his character, moral and spiritual parachutes. Many people had prepared him when he ejected from his jet over Viet Nam. In prison camp he met more parachute packers that helped him survive. Excuse me while I pack a small piece of your parachute. Please put your fuse back in.

keeping my air bags on...if they deploy good for them and probably will be thankful they do.

:happy0180:

Pete, where did you get the idea that i removed my airbag fuse! thats like flying with my ejection seat pins still in:yikes:

:happy0180:

Yeah....I'm definitely not recommending people pull their fuses but I did after hearing a about a couple that had their side bags deploy. I didn't even know that it happened on the L/28 either.

I know user named bannonm on here had his deploy during a normal track use. He did say with stock wheels/tires he was okay but once he made that upgrade he got enough Gs in a turn to deploy the side bags. There was also a V6 car that had the same thing happen. I can't find that thread now but I did read it. Then there was the most notorious one of the guy doing doughnuts in his and they deployed.

With all that I decided I wanted to pull mine just to make sure they didn't deploy especially since they are so expensive and are not covered under warranty. Now that I've been out on a track I know that I would have to really push my car I doubt I would do it again. Right now my wheels/tires are definitely a weak point.

bannonm is the man that gathered the black box data and posted it. The highest G forces we have recorded on all of our track cars is 1.384 Gs. I can't recall his number, but it was considerably higher. So much higher I think the on board sensor glitched. It would have been nice to have a data logger in the vehicle.