Poll -- Camaro vs Mustang Supercar Shootout
This has taken longer than anticipated, but we finally held our Supercar Shootout August 11, 2010 at Gingerman Raceway. The weather was not the best. We drove to the track in style but in heavy rain. Pedders Camaro Supercar, Pedders Saleen Supercar, Pedders G8 Supercar, Pedders GTO Supercar, the Pedders HHR SS and a cargo van. Almost as soon as we pulled into the track gate the rain subsided.
We pulled under the canopies and began to setup our equipment. First up was the generator to power up the fans to cool the cars between runs. Then the data logging equipment and cameras. While food, drinks and swag were setup in the meeting rooms we sent out a fleet of cars to start drying the track.
The last track day we held was a cool fall day. We had no issues with
heat soak and the engine computer pulling timing out based on high IATs.
Working with ProCharger we have a new intake that is more free flowing
and a ridiculous new inter-cooler with an integrated MAF mount.
This is a far more efficient setup. Because the ProCharger pulls air from the
engine compartment and not a factory style air box we did some intense
thermal management. The headers have been wrapped along with the
heater hoses that run across the plenum and the charge tube coming
out of the intercooler. We removed the factory sound insulation from the
plenum to allow it to breath. None of these are really meant to increase
RWHP, just to maintain the RWHP we see on the dyno and on cooler days.
The other major change we made to the Camaro was to install 2010 Cadillac
CTS-V brakes. Rumor has it that these are the same brakes that the new Z
28 Camaro will use. Wink, nod, wink. The brake bias is dead nuts perfect.
The CTS-V OE brake pads are a GREAT set of combination street and
track pad, but for our extreme track use we have had to do some pad
development. We worked with Cobalt Friction and will be running CF XR1
front and XR3 rear Carbon ceramic pads for the event. The brakes are a
substantial upgrade over the SS brakes with similar pads.
The third major change to the Camaro are the 52mm Remote Reservoir
Independent Bound and Rebound Supercar Coilovers. We have the car
so dialed in it is off the charts. It is close to OE smooth on the street and
thisclosetoa race car on the track.
2010 Cadillac CTS-V Brakes Front and Rear
558 RWHP 499 RWTQ
ACS Hood and Front Spoiler
American Racing Headers
Brigestone RE-11 305/30/19 Tires Front and Rear
Cobalt Friction Carbon Ceramic Track ONLY Brake Pads
Fluidyne 2.5 Quart Oil Cooler
Forgeline Racing Wheels 19x10.5 Front and Rear with Special
Offsets to Square the Track
Insulated Cold Air Intake
Nickey Chicago Stinger II Hood
Pedders Adjustable Sway Bars with Adjustable Endlinks
Pedders Control Arm Bushes (EP7264, EP7322)
Pedders Steering Rack/Pinion Mount (EP2112)
Pedders Rear Trailing Arm Toe Link (EP7323)
Pedders Front Radius Rod Bushing (EP6577)
Pedders Complete Brake Hose Kit (PDUSACAM2800)
Pedders Full Alignment Kit (PDUSACAMFULL)
Pedders Paint Scheme
Pedders Heavy Duty Sub-Frame Bushes (EP1201HD)
Pedders Heavy Duty Rear Differential Mounts (EP1167HD)
Pedders Supercar Coilovers (164086)
ProCharger with Stage II Race Intercooler and Intake
QTP Exhuast Cut Outs
SRF Brake Fluid
Pedders USA started working with Saleen last year to develop a coilover set for the new S281. The coilovers pleased the Saleen people and we started to develop a strong relationship. Working with Saleen we are about to
release a full line of Saleen suspension bits. These parts are the foundation
for a S281 SR. The SR stands for Saleen Race.
449 RWHP 419 RWTQ
American Racing Headers
Bridgestone RE-11 305/30/19 Tires Front and Rear
Ford Racing Differential Cover
Saleen 15” Six Piston Front Brakes
Saleen Adjustable Panhard bar (06-1304-B19537A)
Saleen Adjustable Pinion Bush (06-1305-B19536A)
Saleen Adjustable Rear Control Arms (06-1304-B19542A)
Saleen Anti-Lift / Dive Kit (06-1305-B19533A)
Saleen Borla Exhaust
Saleen Carbon Ceramic Track ONLY Brake Pads
Saleen Control Arm Bushes (06-1304-B19543A)
Saleen Front Single Chassis Brace Bar Brace (06-1305-B19541A)
Saleen Front Triangulated Chassis Brace (06-1305-B19539A)
Saleen Insulated Cold Air Intake
Saleen Rear Chassis Brace (06-1305-B19540A)
Saleen SR Paint Scheme
Saleen SR Racing Wheels by Forgeline 19x10.5 Front and Rear with Special Offsets to Square the Track
Saleen Supercharger Compatible Strut Tower Bar (CS6TB)
Saleen Sway Bars with Adjustable Front Endlinks and Adjustable Front Bar (06-1303-B19530A)
Saleen Track Bar with Safety Harness (CSTTB05)
Saleen Track Coilovers with Camber Plates (06-1300-A19349A)
SRF Brake Fluid
Our Driver -- Knowledge is Speed
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Specialists in development of SCCA Touring and Showroom Stock type vehicles with. advanced knowledge of General Motors products, and experts in CTS-V and Corvette models.
For about the cost of a set of tires you can permanently improve your vehicle and team with data, video, and engine analysis service. We have fully portable analysis systems with quick in-out capability for use in multiple cars if required. Understand and analyze your vehicle like never before. Standard service includes the following types of analysis:
Chassis Data Logging:
Utilizing the Race Technology DL-1 logger you will be able to break down lap segments, speeds, and lateral and longitudinal accelerations. If you desire, we will drive your car and log data for direct comparison of driving technique. The software is very effective at finding ways to improve lap times by changing driving styles.
John Buttermore began his racing career at the age of 16 when he attended Skip Barber Racing School with his father at Road America where having hardly ever driven a stick shift car before instantly adapted and was the fastest driver in the school. Exactly 10 years later he returned to that same track in the CTS-V and broke the track record.
John’s racing career began with SCCA regional and PCA events driving a 1983 Porsche 944 in the ITS class. John began running full seasons at Waterford Hills Raceway in suburban Detroit during his summers home from college from 1999-2002. In that time he racked up numerous wins and poles on the local circuit.
In 2004 he joined the SCCA National circuit with the brand new Cadillac CTS-V in the Touring 2 class. 2005-6 Results are available on the Results Page.
In 2007 John drove both the CTS-V and the Corvette C6 throughout the season. John had a banner 2007 season winning 6 National events and finishing 2nd at the National Championships in T1 and 6th in T2. During this season John also took 3 new track records along the way, including one that was set in his first time in the C6 after starting last without qualifying!!!
The 2008 season brought great success as well where John won every national entered, won the divisional championship, and won the June Sprints by nearly 30 seconds. The 2008 Runoffs dealt John a lot of car problems, but with a great effort by the whole team John was poised to take the 2008 National Championship when the race was ended early under caution with John in the process of making a pass for the lead.
John is a vehicle dynamics engineer by professional and lives in Pontiac, MI. He holds a bachelors of Engineering from Cornell University, where he was also a member of the Varsity Football team, and a member of Delta Upsilon fraternity. Other interests include weightlifting, and recently completed his Masters degree from Purdue University.
Started racing overall in 1999
National competition started in 2004
Raced SCCA T2 in a Cadillac CTS-V
Raced SCCA T1 in a Chevrolet Corvette
13 SCCA National wins 2007-2009
National Winner at:
- Road America
- Watkins Glen
- Indianapolis Raceway Park
- Nelson Ledges
5 SCCA National wins and undefeated in regular season of 2008
2008 Detroit Region SCCA National Driver of the year
3 consecutive SCCA Runoffs medals in T1 2007-2009
Former or Current Track Record Holder at
- Nelson Ledges
- Indianapolis Raceway Park
Sponsored by Hoosier Racing Tire, Carbotech Brakes
Dr. Jamie Meyer GM, Bob Kern GM, Clifford Cohen GM, Pete Basica Pedders and Micah Kern (no relation) GM
Jess Albright Saleen, Michael Timarac Saleen, Phil Jankura Austrade and Pete Basica Pedders
Pete Basica Pedders and John Buttermore Nearbrook Motorsports
Video Clips of the Camaro and Mustang On Track
Becuase the media people from Hot Rod and Mustang Enthusiast worked so hard and so long on this event we cannot tell you who won. We can tell you the cars ran all day. John drove them harder than he should have. There are no roll cages or any other safety equipment normally found in a race car. Cages and triangulation change the harmonics of the car making it next to impossible to optimise the suspension for use in a car without a cage. (We did design and build for retail sale three different chassis braces for the Mustang.) I will post more pictures and video, but not the results. Until the magazines go to print we are going to let you choose the winner by poll.
There are big differences in the two cars that go well beyond the Mustang have a fixed rear axle. The Mustang also has a floating rear caliper mounted in rubber that is more at home in a 1968 Mustang than a 2010 Mustang. The front sub-frame on the Mustang does not extend as far forward and mounts with two less bolts. From the factory the Mustang has two chassis braces that are important to the function of the vehicle.
On a Camaro we would start to improve stability through the lowest hanging fruit -- Pedders EP1200 sub-frame inserts. On the Mustang, it is the FIRST car we ever specified a triangulated chassis brace as the single most important foundational upgrade.
The mustang front sub-frame ends at the leading edge of the front wheel axles in the hubs. The front sway bar ends connect to the front struts. The main length of the bar connects to formed sheet metal well forward of the sub-frame with D bushes and metal straps. We designed a light weight chassis brace to more directly tie the sub-frame to the formed sheet metal where the D bushes bolt.
The immediate result is that the function of the OE bar is improved. You will notice the difference the first time you turn the front wheels and over the first bump. There are a lot of companies that make suspension parts for the Mustang. It is a crowded market. To my knowledge, this is the only triangulated front chassis brace. We look at things differently than other. We think the OEM guys are smart. They know what they are doing. They work under different budget constraints than a company like Pedders.
We do not look at the cost of a part first. We look for foundational weaknesses in the chassis. We ask why the OEM engineers did it this way. We rely on 60 years of experiences to guide us. Then we ask the magic question, why not do this. We build a prototype part and test it on the car. If it works, we assemble a detailed build of materials. Then we create the retail price. If the part is important enough in terms of function, people will buy it because it offers value. If our part is half as much or twice as much as brand x we don't care as long as the function justifies the price.
The equivalent part on the Camaro would be the EP1200 sub-frame bush inserts. You can add RWHP, you can add coilovers, you can add wheels and tires, but until you have at least sub-frame inserts you can't have a GREAT Camaro. If you want more than inserts we have the EP1201 and EP1201HD bushes. They makes the Camaro IRS function as designed -- STABLE.
Why didn't the OE engineers do this. Why didn't they know how important this was to the function so a great IRS? They did know. They had to meet a cabin noise level requirement that is a national standard to be certified as a library ;) Most people equate quiet with quality. Our inserts add so little cabin noise you cannot tell it is there. If you used GM's audio testing equipment it would document the difference. Pedders is not restricted by that benchmark requirement so we are free to offer three levels of sub-frame bush solutions giving the Camaro owner complete control over how to setup their Camaro.
If we had an unlimited amount of resources and time I am sure we could squeeze another 1.5 to 2.5 seconds out of the cars. We would do this with improved engine cooling, front and rear brake ducts, upgrade the engine internals to increase TQ and HP and finally a couple of weeks at the track adjusting and tweaking in tiny increments looking for gains in a corner entry as small as .025 seconds. The end result would be cars that are incrementally faster and priced another $15,000 higher.
Our test day was typical for Pedders. It rained morning after morning washing all the rubber out of the track so we had virgin asphalt. One of these days we'll get a nice season track full of race rubber. When car run a track the tires wear leaving behind a 'filler'. The race rubber fills the spaces between the stones that form the track surface. A seasoned track is not slick. It is sticky and fast. I would complain of a black cloud and rain following me, but we had the shy pouring down rain when we arrived and 90 minutes later we had a dry track. How can I complain?
Our weather always seems to be so cold we are shaking or so hot we are melting. It was hot. It was humid. We know our TQ and HP were down. The cars are faster than they tested. They are only as fast as they tested on 8.11.2010 because that is what the data logging shows. We do know both car improved from our last test session even though they were making less HP and TQ dues to the exceptionally hot and humid weather so the chassis tweaks we made were spot on.
This is a very long answer to your very good question. Both cars are AWESOME. Off the showroom floor, I'll pick the Camaro over the Mustang. My partner Ron Pedder from AU drove the Mustang bone stock. He LOVED the look. He loved the interior. His evaluation was to the point -- They have that great 1968 look updated. The look is spot on. They got the drive all wrong. I feel like I am driving a 1968 Mustang. We knew we had a long way t go to get new Mustang to perform like our Camaro Supercar. In the end, that is exactly what we were able to accomplish. Cale Yarborough could have dominated NASCAR with the 2010 Saleen in 1968 :D You can see from the chart we have used a wide range of cars for our track time comparisons -- Thank you John O'Donnell for pulling that data together --- and the Mustang is going to slot very well.
The Pro Touring cars are fast. They are GREAT CARS!!! The suspension on most if either custom built or tubular component up grades. Some are built bu suspension companies. Most are built by guys that LOVE cars and motorsports. Some have put their life and life savings into them. They are fully functioning works of automotive art created by people who have a deep passion driving them. A number of these enthusiasts were at Gingerman for the Motor State Pro Touring Challenge.
Check out the ProTouring Cars at Gingerman or the Motor State ProTouring G-Machine Video Gallery
The driving, the cars and the feel of the event are everything an enthusiast could as for. They ran very very well. The Mustang and Camaro are faster around Gingerman than any of them and my best educated guess is both the Mustang and Camaro are heavier than any of the Pro Touring cars.
When we do publish the winner it will do little to settle the Mustang Camaro debate. Going into this project I was not all that confident I could get the Ford to be street civil and track animal. With a GREAT TEAM EFFORT we did exactly that. If the 60s and 70s formed the Golden Age of American Muscle then we are in the Platinum age right now. AMERICA MUSCLE has never had it this good!When I walk into my garage I have a hard time deciding which car to drive. Most of the time it will be based on which one is spotless. That is another poll. When you have two nice cars, do you take the one that is freshly detailed and spotless or the one that is just a little dirty?
One last thought. If you own a 5th Gen Camaro you own a GREAT CAR and so do the people that bought a Mustang over at the Blue Oval. If the Camaro is Pedderised or the Mustang has the new Saleen Suspension you own a SUPERCAR and we have the track data to prove it.
Here is an update on the Theoretical Lap Times for both the Mustang and Camaro. We use our data logging software to cut and paste the best parts of every lap we ran for each car. This does two things. First, it is a measure of driver consistency. The closer the drivers Best Lap to the Theoretical Lap the more consistent the driver is. To be withing a second is good, under a second is better and under a half a second is beyond good. Second, this is a measure of the car and particularly the suspension. To be able to be consistent the car must be consistent. All a driver can ask of a car is to be stable and predictable. If the car delivers stability and predictability the driver knows what to do on every inch of the track. A really good car paired with a really good driver will deliver consistently good results. One is a measure of the other.
In the Camaro John was 3/10ths of a second slower in his Actual Lap Time compared to the Theoretical Best Lap Time.
In the Mustang John was 3/100ths of a second off in his Actual Lap Time compared to the Theoretical Best Lap Time.
This is another way of saying the same thing. Our DRIVER and our CARS were almost PERFECT.
John and the Mustang WERE perfect to be 3/100ths of a second apart in Actual vs. Theoretical Lap Times.
:clap: :thumbsup: :clap: :bow: :respekt:
Is there only one right answer? ;)
Voted! I took a chance and went with the Camaro beating the CTS-V time of 1:33.7.
Ahhhhh too many choices!! hahaha I think they both beat the CTS-V....For NOW. I have a feeling that some guys with a bunch of red suspension parts, and a bull in their logo will make that CTS-V even faster....
So sheesh, how long are we gonna have to wait for these media people?! =)
Picking up and installing Pedder's sway bars tomorrow... To add to my bushings and Xa's. I LOVE the way my car handles, cant wait to see what the sways do!
Wish I was closer for all these awesome track days etc!
... Most of the above? :laugh:
Hey Pete...PM me with some hints. LOL
Now I am going to be wondering about this one til it hits print.
Every time I pick up a new car I have thee same feeling. Compared to whatever we have just finished they don't feel any where near as good. Then I start to worry. Can we get this car up to where we want it? With a good TEAM around you there isn't much you can't do. So we did. Again. :D
1. The Mustang with Driver is 352 pounds lighter than the Camaro with Driver giving the Mustang a huge advantage every time the accelerator or brake peddle is used.
2. Both cars runs the exact same tire and wheel combination giving an edge to the Mustang in traction through foot print per pound.
3. The Mustang delivers with a 3.73 the Camaro a 3.43 giving the Mustang an advantage.
4. The twin screw Saleen blower develops more HP and TQ at the lower RPM range to give the Mustang another advantage.
5. Gingerman Raceway rewards suspension, tires and brakes because it is a momentum track and not a HP track like Road America.
Both cars have FI. Both cars run custom made Cobalt Friction brake pads. Both run the same lightweight Forgeline racing wheels. Both cars run Bridgestone RE-11 tires. Both cars run suspension developed by Pedders. Both cars are prepped at the same shop by the same tech with me watching.
Short of running identical cars these are about as even as you are going to get.
Do I still get to vote?
Vote Chicago style -- Vote EARLY and vote OFTEN. Just don't tell anyone who you voted for. ;)
Funny how the first option has no votes! lol
This is what it boils down to. How sure are you that 100 WRHP makes the car faster. Since the Mustang is down 100+ RWHP I say spot me a car length for $100 and see how sure you are. I am not calling you out, just making a point. On the other hand anyone that wants to make side bets with me I'll donate my winnings 100% to charity.
The cars were a dead heat testing. There is much more I can say about how evenly matched they are.
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