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-   -   Why TT over SC? (http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=107291)

Jefe's SS 09-23-2010 09:51 AM

Why TT over SC?
 
School me on turbos. Why would I want to go w/ TT instead of a super charger? FYI, I live at 5280 ft. if that makes a difference.

Team STILLEN 09-23-2010 10:42 AM

Efficiency. A turbo is more efficient than a belt driven supercharger. The turbo uses exhaust energy to compress air. The supercharger uses horsepower from the crank to compress air.

I keep referring to this dyno test by Richard Holdener, its a cool test.

http://www.musclemustangfastfords.co...rced_induction

ipimpthisc 09-23-2010 10:56 AM

great write up...turbo is the way...if u want the response to be lower just go down a size...and u will get that crazy tire spin with the high hp

IPS Brandon 09-23-2010 11:51 AM

Here is some fun reading about our TT kit

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=105172

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=94520

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=91275

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1171/...8b370801_o.jpg
(R&D photo production version is slightly modified, and no that pipe does NOT hang below the subframe)

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1395/...b4988408_o.jpg

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4106/...f8015d5e_o.jpg
Auto Car

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4148/...64589c61_o.jpg
4" core!






If you have more questions please let me know.

Regards

Team STILLEN 09-23-2010 01:13 PM

I can discuss a few points about each setup. One big thing is emissions.

Most turbo kits, twin turbo guys don't get emissions certification. Not a big deal for some people, however in some places, like California, this can be a deal breaker.

The Edlebrock E- Force is 50 state emissions legal, and you can purchase an additional warranty to go along with the supercharger. So not only do you get a big boost in power, you will not have the hassles of a non-certified system down the road.

Generally speaking its easier to get emissions certification for a supercharger kit, and this cost is also wrapped into the price of the kit as R & D.

The turbo guys could get certification, but its a complicated and expensive process, that requires some tamper resistance to keep a car at the proper certified level for emissions compliance.

The turbos themselves get hot, so careful attention needs to be paid to the locations next to areas that can not take high temperatures.

A positive displacement supercharger will feel more powerful down lower in the rev range. Depending on how the turbos are sized, will depend on how the turbocharged car will feel You pick the turbo for the power you want to make. Sort everything else out around that number.

danhr 09-23-2010 01:28 PM

turbos are badass.

any more need said?

nl12 09-23-2010 06:52 PM

I hear turbos are a better choice if you are at altitude, a turbo is less likely to break your crankshaft, turbo system generally doesn't raise the cg of your car as much. Different power curves will feel different on the road.

speedster 09-23-2010 08:21 PM

A lot of it is a matter of preference, cost and installation. There are pros and cons to everything. Some like the whoosh of the turbos and some like the whine of a blower. IMO one of the biggest differences between turbos and blowers is real-time adjustability.

SILVER BULLITT 09-24-2010 03:09 AM

TT FTW

IPS Brandon 09-24-2010 07:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by speedster (Post 2363592)
A lot of it is a matter of preference, cost and installation. There are pros and cons to everything. Some like the whoosh of the turbos and some like the whine of a blower. IMO one of the biggest differences between turbos and blowers is real-time adjustability.

You mean like a "push to pass" scramble boost function! I like your thinking!

Granatelli 10-02-2010 03:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dracer98 (Post 1892276)
OK - OTK asked for help and an opinion and rather than answer the question you guys say read all the other posts and threads? That’s like going to the dealer for help and the guy telling you - well did you read the manual

So< I will do what he asked and back it up with fact...The question is all about the various 2010 turbo options out there and how reliable can they be.

Today most turbo manufactures make very reliable products - That is not to be confused by the various kit makers. You have many choices and types:

Single top mount
Double top mount
Single bottom mount
Double bottom mount
and some call the muffler turbo type another option

You asked about Fastlane so you already know they offer a single top mount system.
Turbonetics has also developed a single top mount that they claim will ultimately by 50 state legal
Single top mount systems require a cross over pipe that merges all the exhaust flow and energy into the "hot side" of the turbocharger. You basically take all the heat that is radiating out of the heads which is also known as energy and channel it into the turbo.

Twin turbo top mount -
FLP, early on, developed a twin turbo kit that had top mount turbos. If 1 top mount turbo makes heat in the wrong spot then 2 top mount turbos are double trouble. In the case of FLP, it could be quite possibly the most unprofessional kit ever made. It looks like a kindergartener built it. It gives all turbo kits a bad name. This is the only kit I know of that puts the turbos up in your face.

Why I don't particularly care for the top mount design - Like I said it puts all that heat off the cylinder heads right over the valve cover (s) or better said, in the immediate surrounding area of where it is mounted. Take for example the new Turbonetics kit coming down the pike. It mounts the turbo in a location very similar to the Fastlane kit but angles it a slight bit differently a lower in the frame. In other words if the turbo on the Fastlane kit is mounted at 1 0-clock then Turbonetics mounts the turbo at a little less than 2 0-clock and shoves it forward a few inches to keep heat off the front of the engine dress.

Fastlane makes claims that the factory (General Motors) mounts their turbos up high which is actually not the case. But it is a different story for a different thread. Like they say everyone has an opinion on the subject and my opinion is - Don't ever mount a turbocharger with super hot exhaust right next to the spark plug wires, the coils, the valve covers, ABS unit and the likes. You ask why companies do it then. Simple Turbonetics tells you they would prefer to run twins but there is no way to accomplish that 50 state legally. Meaning the law states you cannot move or alter the cats at all. In fact all you guys that purchase bigger after market cats for your cars with headers are still breaking the law. Look it up if you think I am wrong. There is no such thing as a 50 state legal aftermarket performance catalytic converter. Scratch that – if you have over 50,000 miles on your car and you need new cats then you can change them... While changing them, nothing stops you from going bigger. But for the most parts it is not legal. Back to business – Turbonetics marries the exhaust at the front and mounts the single turbo high because in order to build a Y pipe AFTER THE FACTORY CATALYTICs there is no way to get a big enough single turbo under the car. So, it ends up high. Fastlane obviously has the ability to build a twin just as easy as they did the single but I would surmise now that they are pushing the big single it would be a conflicting story to push a twin. Especially when they know the twins can easily make more power in a better package – by package I mean space.

That leads us to Single turbo mounted under the car – like I said – it just doesn’t package right. Sure you could probably wedge a 60mm turbo under the car in the proximity of the front end but the turbo is only good enough to make roughly 550hp at a very high boost - this would not be optimal to say the least.

You could take the STS route and mount a big single towards the back but while your back there you may as well go duels – which is exactly what they do.

So let’s talk about twin muffler type turbos, aka the STS version, when all else fails every car manufacture makes room for a muffler – if there is space for the muffler there is space to take it out and drop in a turbo or 2. That must be STS’s motto. On the dyno, the STS kit proves that a turbo does not really mind pumping through a maze of piping in order to ultimately pressurize the engine. So what is the draw back to the STS method – Turbo lag(The time required to bring the turbo up to a speed where it can function effectively by compressing air into the engine (aka) lag is the delay between the instant a car's accelerator is depressed and the time the turbocharger take to make boost and some would say full boost.)Whenever you talk to “anti-turbo” people they want to talk about turbo lag. A better definition would be boost lag – and boost lag can be measured in any compressor application. Certainly the centrifugal blower companies can’t preach about lag because they blowers make boost based solely on engine RPM – that means the turbo makes peak boost sooner and maintains it longer than a centrifugal. The Magnuson, Kenne Bell, Whipple crowd make boost sooner than the turbo and carry it through out the engine RPM but it comes at the cost of crank HP robbed to spin the unit. –

Back on track – The STS kit has more lag then most other twin and single turbo kits because the farther you put the turbos from the exhaust discharge of the heads the more time it makes to get them up in their sweet spot – this is also known as PUMPING LOSS –

Foot Note - Although a turbo's position in the exhaust stream does restrict exhaust flow potential to some extent, the pumping losses are much less than the parasitic drag induced by a conventional supercharger's belt or gears. In a typical gasoline-fueled engine, it's common to see 30 out of every 100 hp added by a belt driven supercharger being wasted turning the drive pulleys and belts; this compares to about 5-10 hp per every 100 suffered as pumping losses by a typically well-designed turbo installation.

Interesting to note: Considered as a system, a good twin turbo setup has less heat buildup than a large single turbo system. Additionally, the twin turbo setup has less heat buildup than a Magnuson/Kenne Bell/Whipple type blower, and its smaller size compared to a centrifugal supercharger permits higher compressor-wheel rotational speeds and more radical blade-tip curvature that collectively translate into greater pumping efficiency. A large single turbo system radiates heat more in line with that of a non intercooled centrifugal type.

The Twin Turbo set up is often perceived as complex and difficult to install over other systems but that is simply not the case. Sure you need a hoist, lift and or jack stands to install it but once installed it is the most maintenance free and trouble free of them all and that was the real first question – Reliability!.

So let’s talk about all the twin turbo set ups out there:

Granatelli Motor Sports – Everyone Pretty much agrees they have the nicest looking kit out there – should I say just released kit out there They run PTS turbos which are considered to best in the business and I have firsthand knowledge that the PTS 6265 turbo feed 600hp each at moderated boost levels – so this kit is what they say Able to go from Mild to Wild! How can you go wrong with Granatelli, everything they put their minds to usually is top notch – they work with Turbo Tech - that just gives this kit the 1 -2 punch over the rest in my book

Hellion Turbo Systems – They claim to also be shipping and they use 58mm Turbonetics turbos. Turbonetics put a 1 year warranty on all their turbos so that should add some piece of mind. The reviews on these guys are also pretty good so far – although you gotta wonder why they sell turbo kits but race at the track with Centrifugal stuff.

STS – we talked about them. Not sure if a want to spend 8 to 10k for a system that put the air filter right behind the rear tires but I am sure there must be a shroud for that – just not show in the pictures. But again it has the lag issue – good thing about the STS kit, the turbos come after the factory cats so they are as close to 50 state legal as you can get. – If power is not the first priority and you don’t worry about the turbos vacuuming up water from what gets thrown off the tires, this a great system as well

There are other players out there too – you just don’t hear as much because they are not quite there yet.

So while other want to tell you to “look it up” or “make your own choice” I hope this helps you in a cliff notes kind of way.

You can’t go wrong with forced induction on your Camaro and the choices are plenty

Rewind


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