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-   -   Has anyone broke one of these yet? (Rear Lower Control Arm Endlink Tab) (http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=136330)

PQ 03-21-2011 10:20 PM

Has anyone broke one of these yet? (Rear Lower Control Arm Endlink Tab)
 
I was under the car the other day and decided to inspect the entire underneath. Well, I found this broken braket peice that is basically the control arm. It is the peice welded onto the control arm that the end links to the sway bar connects to.

Pete, at Pedders, has gracefully offered me one he's had at the shop from early testing. So I didn't have to go buy one but I'm curious if anyone else has had a problem with this piece.

As you can see, the end link tore through the braket. Also pictured is the other side that seems to be good.

There is a split in the other side braket and I don't know if it's a crack or is it supposed to be that way?

Anyway, any feedback would be cool.

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/attach...2&d=1300582748

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/attach...3&d=1300582748

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/attach...4&d=1300582748

UPDATE: Repaired........

Ok, last night I replaced the LCA and puet Pedders end links and sub-frame bushing inserts on the car. I'll do the CA bushings today.

As you can see, it’s NOT a good idea to break one of these. The end link was completely outside of the LCA and had separated the whole ball joint.
http://www.camaro5.com/forums/attach...0&d=1301065620
http://www.camaro5.com/forums/attach...1&d=1301065620

Here you can see material from the LCA bracket between the end link nut.

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/attach...2&d=1301065620


Another pic of the damage from the top. Is it my imagination, or does the new arm bracket look a tad thicker?
http://www.camaro5.com/forums/attach...3&d=1301065620


More damage. You can clearly see how it broke through.

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/attach...4&d=1301065620
http://www.camaro5.com/forums/attach...5&d=1301065620


The ball broke clean from the assembly. Lol

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/attach...6&d=1301065620


No doubt this is tight. LMAO, I torque this with my body weight pretty much.

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/attach...7&d=1301065620


Here you can see where my old end link had come lose before and I moved it to the inside. (stiffest) And yes I moved the other side then as well. Lol

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/attach...8&d=1301065620

I attached the Pedders end link before I installed the LCA.

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/attach...9&d=1301065620


My professional work area.


http://www.camaro5.com/forums/attach...1&d=1301065700

I set the end links to the shortest setting possible. The set nuts could be tighter but I did the best I could. They like to separate on the other one when tightening the first one.

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/attach...2&d=1301065700


As it turns out, when the finish is worn away, there IS a joint here. Can’t imagine why but I confirmed it on both arms. The coating disguises it but it’s definitely there. THIS IS NOT A CRACK. It’s an absolutely PERFECT joint. WAY to perfectly straight and true to be a crack.


http://www.camaro5.com/forums/attach...3&d=1301065700

Pedders most definitely more ‘Robust’ as Pete put it.

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/attach...4&d=1301065700


Ok, so inspect my work………. Lol

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/attach...5&d=1301065700
http://www.camaro5.com/forums/attach...6&d=1301065700

Front sub-frame insert.

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/attach...7&d=1301065700


Rear sub-frame insert. See that pin at the top? That was a BITCH to get to go back right. The struts were not wanting to align with the LCAs and the front cradle joint was up so I had to wedge something between them to hold it down to balance it backward and zip tie the struts to a position in the LCAs to get them to guide in place………… OMG, that was a pain.

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/attach...8&d=1301065700

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/attach...9&d=1301065700

Nother Update:

Second arm is failing......

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/attach...0&d=1301886201

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/attach...1&d=1301886201

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/attach...3&d=1301886201

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/attach...4&d=1301886201

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/attach...5&d=1301886201

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/attach...6&d=1301886201

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/attach...7&d=1301886201

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/attach...8&d=1301886201

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/attach...9&d=1301886201

Indpowr 03-21-2011 10:32 PM

PQ + Bonnie on the hood = split in the other side braket

Just saying...:yikes:

PQ 03-21-2011 10:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Indpowr (Post 2992783)
PQ + Bonnie on the hood = split in the other side braket

Just saying...:yikes:

:laugh:

It's a rear braket......... LMAO

Which would actually make more sense. :sm0:

Camaro21 03-21-2011 11:44 PM

I will have to look at mine, but I haven't noticed anything like that before....

Silver2SSRS6spd 03-21-2011 11:48 PM

Wow, that is not good. I'm putting my car on jack stands tonight for some other mods and will be checking mine out to make sure the same hasn't happened to my car.

LightningSS 03-22-2011 12:04 AM

That's a pretty poorly designed bracket from a strength and loading stand point. The amount of material on the upper side vs the diameter of the fitting is way too small. I'm willing to bet other people will find this broken too.

When load is applied to the rod it will twist the fastener in the hole. Since this is a suspension part it obviously sees many many loadings and unloadings everyday (every time you drive it actually). You can clearly see how repeated loading made the hole oblong shaped until the fitting pulled out.

When I changed out my sway bars my first thought was this style of rod should have a forked end instead of the single-sided end.... Now you can see why.

LightningSS 03-22-2011 12:48 AM

1 Attachment(s)
Son of a b!!!

I just went out to look and mine, and look at what I find on the driver's side:

The nut is gone, but bolt undamaged it seems. The passenger side nut was loose, I could turn it with my fingers....

I hated these tierods the moment I installed my sway bars. To torque the nut you have to use a hex key to hold the bolt or the fitting just spins. Which is ok, but apparently I didn't do a good job.

I can't believe I didn't feel the problem, but it is winter around here and I haven't been ripping around much...

This is my fault for not checking the instl after a time, but those lower fittings are still a crap design (but mine look ok for now).

If anybody makes tierods with forked ends let me know I'll be the first in line... Time for a locking nut or some safety wire too.

TJ91 03-22-2011 12:56 AM

wow are you guys serious?!
Pq, did the pfadts cause it or no? Not sure if you would know or not but im just trying to figure out whether I should do drop springs or not because of a poorly designed piece that will or may eventually fail

MIQ 03-22-2011 03:59 AM

I'll be installing my rear springs today and will inspect them. I only have 500 miles on it right now so I don't expect to see anything wrong. Or will I? :(

IPS Brandon 03-22-2011 10:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PQ (Post 2992720)
I was under the car the other day and decided to inspect the entire underneath. Well, I found this broken braket peice that is basically the control arm. It is the peice welded onto the control arm that the end links to the sway bar connects to.

Pete, at Pedders, has gracefully offered me one he's had at the shop from early testing. So I didn't have to go buy one but I'm curious if anyone else has had a problem with this piece.

As you can see, the end link tore through the braket. Also pictured is the other side that seems to be good.

There is a split in the other side braket and I don't know if it's a crack or is it supposed to be that way?

Anyway, any feedback would be cool.

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/attach...2&d=1300582748

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/attach...3&d=1300582748

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/attach...4&d=1300582748

Well that sucks.

I would chalk that up to a rare and unusual production failure. I have not seen that yet, and I wouldn't consider that to be the norm by any stretch.

Regards

Darth_Emma 03-22-2011 10:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TJ91 (Post 2993365)
wow are you guys serious?!
Pq, did the pfadts cause it or no? Not sure if you would know or not but im just trying to figure out whether I should do drop springs or not because of a poorly designed piece that will or may eventually fail



PQ doesn't have the Pfadt end links. He has the Pfadt springs and sways. His end links are stock.

I have the Pfadt end links (with springs and sways) on mine and I don't seem to have this problem... right Brandon?

hypurone 03-22-2011 10:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darth_Emma (Post 2994230)
PQ doesn't have the Pfadt end links. He has the Pfadt springs and sways. His end links are stock.

I have the Pfadt end links (with springs and sways) on mine and I don't seem to have this problem... right Brandon?

I have run the Pfadt bars on stock links with no problem for 5000mi before deciding to switch to their links (still no problems).

I hate to say it, but in looking at the pics, I see rust around the mounting holes which usually indicates they were run "loose" and that will chew sh1t up real quick!

PAUL SS 03-22-2011 10:21 AM

Hey PQ, are your springs binding? I was looking at the first photo and noticed the ring of rust on the coils like the paint had been worn off by rubbing on each other. Just something you may want to consider. Good Luck.

Scott@Bjorn3D 03-22-2011 10:24 AM

Yeah those springs do not look good at all. Something is very wrong.

PfadtRacing 03-22-2011 11:13 AM

PM sent for some more info from the original poster. This is the first failure at that bracket that we've seen, so I'm likely to say that this is a strange isolated incident.

As far as the springs are concerned they are a progressive rate spring, meaning there are different spring rates at different parts of spring compression. The coils that you're looking at are at the extremely light side of that progressive rate and are used to achieve the proper free length while the car is at full droop, they are actually designed to stack together while the car is on the ground or under compression. This is the way they are designed, and the factory springs do the same. The springs are working exactly as designed and we see no issues with the spring at all.

There is a lifetime warranty extended to the original owner of our springs. Should the original owner ever experience a spring failure please let us know. The original poster has absolutely nothing to worry about with regard to our springs and we are gathering more information about the bracket.

Dr Jkel 03-22-2011 12:03 PM

PFADT,

You seem to think that this may be an isolated incident based on your knowledge. I too have your springs, sways, end links, trailing arms on my car as well along with 22's pretty much the same set up as PQ but I have trailing arms and end links.

In your opinion do you think horsepower or driving habits may have anything to do with this? While I do not track my car I may ocassionally get on it just to air it out, lol. Also is this a part that needs to be check periodically like oil changes etc...

Just asking from a knowledge standpoint.

PQ 03-22-2011 12:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LightningSS (Post 2993348)
Son of a b!!!

The nut is gone, but bolt undamaged it seems. The passenger side nut was loose, I could turn it with my fingers....

I've had that same thing happen. I just put it back on and torqued the $hit out of it. Happened twide actually, ON the bar like yours. I pit a different type of nut ont it and no more problems.

In my current case, I don't know what happened.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TJ91 (Post 2993365)
wow are you guys serious?!
Pq, did the pfadts cause it or no? Not sure if you would know or not but im just trying to figure out whether I should do drop springs or not because of a poorly designed piece that will or may eventually fail

This is NOT a Pfadt issue. It just isn't. It's the stock end link, and the stock control arm. Sure, the beefier sway bar may be a contributing factor, but the lesson learned here is to buy the end links from your aftermarket bar vendor. Seems the weak link, was the end link....... :D

Of course, I'm guestimating....... I can't be certain what happened.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MIQ (Post 2993500)
I'll be installing my rear springs today and will inspect them. I only have 500 miles on it right now so I don't expect to see anything wrong. Or will I? :(

I've talked to enough of the right peole to verify this is NOT typical. I wouldn't worry. Just buy the end links too.

Quote:

Originally Posted by hypurone (Post 2994262)
I hate to say it, but in looking at the pics, I see rust around the mounting holes which usually indicates they were run "loose" and that will chew sh1t up real quick!

I think you are right. It may have loosened up and ovaled out the hole.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PAUL SS (Post 2994268)
Hey PQ, are your springs binding? I was looking at the first photo and noticed the ring of rust on the coils like the paint had been worn off by rubbing on each other. Just something you may want to consider. Good Luck.

That's normal. Nothing to worry about.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PfadtRacing (Post 2994474)
PM sent for some more info from the original poster. This is the first failure at that bracket that we've seen, so I'm likely to say that this is a strange isolated incident.

I hope you are right. So the other picture from the other side is normal? With the split in the top?

And, how will this affect driveability exactly?

Avalnch 03-22-2011 12:41 PM

Hey PQ, this sucks to see, but also very educational.

What setting did you have the rear bar set to (meaning which hole are the endlinks attached to)? I think the stronger rear bar coupled with your supercharger has caused the rear endlink brackets to fail the way they did. Too many hard launches and the weakest part of the whole rear endlink set up failed, which happens to be the control arm bracket. The other side is starting to crack too.

Might as well get a set of these:
http://www.spohn.net/shop/2010-Chevr...ontiac-G8.html

You might want to email them to see if their replacement LCA has taken this into account.

Good Luck!

Dr Jkel 03-22-2011 12:59 PM

I DEFINITELY do not think it is a Pfadt issue as well maybe just finding a weak link in the chain so to speak or may be the fact that since yours were loose at one time that may have been a contributing factor.

I tend to lean away from the Horsepower theory since alot of people have added alot of HP and this is the first issue that has come up.

Unfortunately it has happened to you PQ. but the good news is I am putting together a Resume' for you and you are a shoe in for your new job as "Product Tester" Once is gets the seal of approval from PQ it will be the industry Gold Standard.

I can see it now. PQ approved this product, or you think your products will stand up? Send it to through the PQ challenge.

I know I am making light of a not so funny situation but you have to admit you are having some of the craziest things happen. Fuze Pull , wheels, etc....

PQ 03-22-2011 01:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avalnch (Post 2994909)
Hey PQ, this sucks to see, but also very educational.

What setting did you have the rear bar set to (meaning which hole are the endlinks attached to)? I think the stronger rear bar coupled with your supercharger has caused the rear endlink brackets to fail the way they did. Too many hard launches and the weakest part of the whole rear endlink set up failed, which happens to be the control arm bracket. The other side is starting to crack too.

Might as well get a set of these:
http://www.spohn.net/shop/2010-Chevr...ontiac-G8.html

You might want to email them to see if their replacement LCA has taken this into account.

Good Luck!

I saw those on the net while looking for some better ones. Not sure what I'm going to do yet. I'm trying to verify that I need both arms. The split in the other one might be already there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Jkel (Post 2995004)
I DEFINITELY do not think it is a Pfadt issue as well maybe just finding a weak link in the chain so to speak or may be the fact that since yours were loose at one time that may have been a contributing factor.

I tend to lean away from the Horsepower theory since alot of people have added alot of HP and this is the first issue that has come up.

Unfortunately it has happened to you PQ. but the good news is I am putting together a Resume' for you and you are a shoe in for your new job as "Product Tester" Once is gets the seal of approval from PQ it will be the industry Gold Standard.

I can see it now. PQ approved this product, or you think your products will stand up? Send it to through the PQ challenge.

I know I am making light of a not so funny situation but you have to admit you are having some of the craziest things happen. Fuze Pull , wheels, etc....

:sm0: :sm0: :sm0:

No doubt. If I can't tear it up, it can't be tore up. LMAO

LightningSS 03-22-2011 01:27 PM

[QUOTE=Avalnch;2994909]The other side is starting to crack too.
QUOTE]

Yes it is. I didn't notice this last night, but you can see the crack clearly in the third picture. It is just waiting to pull out too.

This is not a Pfadt issue. It a fitting geometry issue on the "car side." If rust got in around the fastener bushing it probably ate away enough lug material to reduce the strength of the lug enough to let a crack form and then the fastener tears out.

PQ, time to find a good welder to fix the busted side and repair the other.

CoyoteRiverRacing 03-22-2011 01:49 PM

PQ - Did you find better LCA arms?

TIA
Chet

PfadtRacing 03-22-2011 02:11 PM

It's certainly a mediocre mount design at best, but it would be arm chair Quarterbacking at this point to try and give a solid answer why it failed. We've never seen it before, but we prey for a speedy recovery to PQ!

Long story short we're not exactly sure, it's definitely is a strange issue. The rear control arms are cheap, only about 35-50 bucks. I'm thinking it would be just as expensive to just replace the arm as it would be to hire someone to weld the damaged mount. We would replace them both for a little more piece of mind.

BMR guy 03-22-2011 02:14 PM

This is the third control arm I have seen with this problem. The OE brackets are only 1/8" material and there is insufficient material surroundling the bolt hole. To the OP, where the nuts loose on the end link when you found it this way?

During our control arm testing, we actually updated the sway bar mounts on the control arms specifically because of these failures. The sway bar mounts were increased in thickness to 3/16" material and the hole has a full 1/2" of material around it's radius...

blazzin1 03-22-2011 02:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BMR guy (Post 2995341)
This is the third control arm I have seen with this problem. The OE brackets are only 1/8" material and there is insufficient material surroundling the bolt hole. To the OP, where the nuts loose on the end link when you found it this way?

During our control arm testing, we actually updated the sway bar mounts on the control arms specifically because of these failures. The sway bar mounts were increased in thickness to 3/16" material and the hole has a full 1/2" of material around it's radius...

That's all great and everything, but when are you guys going to release them to the public?!?!? I've been hearing about these LCA's of yours for over 6 months now!!! Still waiting.... And still waiting on the Drag Sway Bar and Delrin Subframe Bushings too!


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