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-   -   5th Gen Z28, Gen V Engine. (http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=140036)

thePill 04-09-2011 06:38 PM

5th Gen Z28, Gen V Engine.
 
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Here is a picture taken of the new Gen V 5.5 liter C6R engine. I am pretty excited because I have not seen the engine at all before this picture. This was taken last month by a GM fan.

I will dig up some stats and what I know so far. Just real quick though, this engine produces 470hp and currently is a 5.5 liter. This is the engine I believe should go into the Z28.

thePill 04-09-2011 06:45 PM

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Here are a few more pics.... Notice the large base on the head castings. Could this be another block with X-Code/LQ1 capabilities?

thePill 04-09-2011 07:11 PM

Some info I found about this Gen V.
Quote:

all-new approach to variable valve timing in an overhead valve (pushrod) engine that would allow cam phasing of both the intake and exhaust valves, like a dual overhead cam V-8. In GM's current 5.3-liter small-block OHV V-8, cam phasing is limited to just the intake valves because of its cam-in-block architecture. The new method could use so-called "cam-in-cam" timing (Like the Dodge Viper).
Quote:

the next generation small block engine family will have unprecedented fuel efficiency through direct injection and an all-new advanced combustion system design. The new engine family will rely exclusively on aluminum engine blocks, which are lighter and contribute to the improved fuel efficiency. In addition to being E85 ethanol capable, these engines are being designed with the capability to meet increasingly stringent criteria emissions standards expected throughout this decade."
Quote:

the Gen V block will have the camshaft positioned higher in the block, a raised cam. A higher position cam in the block alllows greater flexibility in pushrod positioning and because the pushrods are shorter the are stiffer. "the chevy NASCAR engine the R-07 has already done this"

thePill 04-09-2011 07:37 PM

The heads pictured above have a huge base on the bottom of the casting, these are definitely a brand new design. They also have to be production heads (very close to them), it is required in GT2 to run the stock castings I believe but the water passages can be altered for cooling and such (individual cylinder cooling). This thing was based off the 7.0 so the block should look very similar.

I heard that the direct injectors are below the intake ports and they face the pistons The the valves are 2.18" x 1.60" that makes the valve area (per displacement) greater than the LT5. Maybe shallower valve angles or splayed valves to round up the "new combustion system" GM was talking about.

Some info here:
Quote:

at a minimum they layed over valve angles - possibly 11*. it looks like straight lsx-dr tech. the exhaust face is almost in line with the bolt heads, and the intake face is vertical instead of 5*. that may account for the wider valve covers - and not splayed valves. they probably need the room that inline valves gives for the injectors.

the 5.5 and 5.0 share the same 81 mm stroke. gm racing used a 5.0L in the g6 race car. if the deck is unchanged from the gen iv, then it must be using super long rods. imo gm will want to keep a moderate rod/stroke ratio. this makes me suspect that the bore and stroke are race only, and that the production engines will have more square dimensions. they should be awesome regardless

midnighter 04-09-2011 07:42 PM

That's a nice power plant from what I can see from the pics.

GearBangr 04-09-2011 07:53 PM

Thats awesome! Thanks for sharing, Ive been wanting to get a closer look at that motor for a while.
I really hope they increase the displacement though, Im pretty sure it will since I think 5.5 is the displacement limit.

So what we know so far includes..

improved variable valve timing
raised cam block
direct injection
e85 capability
and im guessing piston squirters like the LS9 and DI 3.6
and improved combustion chamber design
which Im guessing is maybe somthing similar to what the LNF uses.

BackinBlackSS/RS 04-09-2011 07:54 PM

That is very cool!! :thumbsup:

thePill 04-09-2011 08:51 PM

I can imagine the weight would be pretty low, probably LS3 weight. As far as I know, these are the only known photographs of the LS5.5. Copy them to your desktop in case this thread gets removed. I had to dig kinda deep to get these....

BackinBlackSS/RS 04-09-2011 08:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thePill (Post 3076064)
Copy them to your desktop in case this thread gets removed. I had to dig kinda deep to get these....

done

Blueclyde 04-09-2011 08:55 PM

The Gen V small block for Camaro will be 6.2L.

thePill 04-09-2011 09:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blueclyde (Post 3076081)
The Gen V small block for Camaro will be 6.2L.

Yeah, I had heard that too. I also heard that the 6.2 variant might be a GenV DOHC. I believe the heads on this engine block pictured above is really the prototype here. The block is still based on the 7.0.

thePill 04-09-2011 09:33 PM

Hey Camaro5, can I get all access again?

thePill 04-10-2011 02:54 AM

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I am anxious to see the chambers and valve layout in the heads. It also has a high rise intake (like the Boss), that tells me its be a high rev'ing engine and most of the power is developed at high rpm. With the engine output being 470hp (440-460hp factory), there would be less of a conflict between the Camaro and Corvette. There is plenty of room for a Z28 engine and a C7 version.

thePill 04-10-2011 03:28 AM

It says the LS5.5 is a de-stroked 7.0 engine. If that's the case, based on the 7.0 has a 4.125x4.000 bore/stroke, then the LS5.5 would have to reduce its stroke to 3.14 to reach 5.5 liters (5.501 exactly). Since this 7.0 already has a 7000rpm redline, reducing the stroke to that extreme could increase the revolutions beyond 8000rpm. For an OHV engine, there would have to be extreme head work done to keep the valves from floating and to keep the engine breathing. I had heard that the valves were 2.18i by 1.60e, the LS7's valves are 2.20i by 2.16e. I heard that the valves have a shallow angle and I have no idea if the 70cc chamber is still being used. The production Gen V will use a completely unique block that is suppose to physically raise the cam in the block, increasing the distance between the crankshaft and the cam. This means the Gen V will have "very short" pushrods while retaining a similar connecting rod length of a typical OHC engine (probably a bit longer, but shorter than the standard OHV rod). That means sturdier, smaller and lighter internals while they "should" maintain or exceed current internal strength. This means a faster drivetrain and valvetrain, capable of stability over 8000RPM. The next issue would be breathing, as an OHV engine chokes at higher RPM because of a single intake valve. The valves will have to be large, the lift and duration will have to be similar to the LS7's (.591 lift intake and exhaust and a 230/211 intake/exhaust duration) if not more. The LS7 has very big valves, the cam lift and duration would need to be taken higher on both specs to breath above 7000RPMs. Depending on the angle at which the pushrods enter the head casting, it may no longer be required to offset the intake rocker arm. It is my understanding that the cam is being raised inside the block (not pictured above) to increase the angle of the pushrods greater than 90 degrees in order to clear both the intake port (ie old OHVs such as the LS2) and to clear the head casting where direct injection would go (ie LS3,LS7). It is whispered that the direct injectors enter the head casting below the intake port on the intake side of the head. I am trying to picture this but, the injectors and fuel lines are probably going to be housed inside the intake valley, facing outward toward the piston and spark plug.

Edit: You can bet that the production Gen V engine will not have a 4.125 bore and a 3.14 stroke. The engine will probably be a square bore/stroke, I would guess between a 3.80 and a 3.90 bore. By using a 3.81 bore and a 3.85 stroke, we can get a 5.739 liter (350.17 cubic inch). Or using the LS3's 4.06 bore, we can get a 350.30 cubic inch (5.741 liter) engine using a 3.383 stroke. I know everybody has got pretty use to the 6.2 but what is the sense of producing a more efficient engine if GM continues to use the larger displacement. If GM can make a 5.7 liter that produces 450hp, 7000rpms at 27mpg then I would opt for the 5.7.

thePill 04-10-2011 05:12 AM

continued....

If the valve angle is decrease a little more from the LS7's 12 degrees (say 8 degrees) and the valves are kept very close to the LS7's 2.20/1.60 valve diameter, the airflow could see increases around 20%. The LS7's heads were at least a 25% increase over the old LS2 (15 degrees) and the LS3 received similar increases. Some cam involvement contributed to those gains, the old LS2 had a .525 lift for example where the LS7 has a huge .591 on both the intake and exhaust. With VVT or Cam in cam phasing, the oil capacity will be no less than 8 quarts. I expect the compression to be high, 11:1 to assist with emissions. I will keep searching the internet for anymore information but information is very limited and should remain that way until we get closer to the C7. I got extremely lucking finding the information and pictures as is... and I have been looking for almost 12 months.

thePill 04-10-2011 05:45 AM

VVT or Cam in Cam phasing:
Regular VVT in a single cam OHV application is limited to either the intake valve timing or exhaust valve timing. I just can't imagine the intake/exhaust valves being controlled by a single cam unless it is a VVT/VTEC combination. GM stated that this new Gen V V8 will use Cam in Cam phasing like the Dodge Viper which is another word for VVT. GM also stated that both the intake and exhaust valves would be controlled independently. This means one of three things:

1.) GM found a way to adjust the intake lobes independently from the exhaust lobes on a single cam. VVT on the exhaust for a longer burn and more horsepower and a VTEC secondary lobe for the intake for torque and horsepower under hard acceleration and regular fuel saving operation below 4500rpm. This sounds kind of complicated, that's a lot of responsibility for a single engine component. There will also be two separate VVT cam gears w/VVT oil pressure unit casting or, some very complicated camshaft nomenclature.

2.) Just break down and go full DOHC, the cost are down and the gains are huge, possibilities are limitless, and fuel economy/emissions are fantastic. This engine design will typically weigh 15-20lbs more.

3.) Create a Duel Under Head Cam design (I believe the prototype 3 valve LS7 used this). This engine design will weigh about 10-15lbs more, the heads would be slightly more compact than a DOHC. See picture below.
http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/4...302gm5z8eh.jpg

So, a Super complex, multi-lobe single cam VVT/VTEC, a DOHC or a Duel Under Head Cam (DUHC). This is exciting...

thePill 04-10-2011 06:44 AM

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I found this little piece of info.
Quote:

3 valve, DI, OHV patents are also owned by GM for a more conventional OHV design that might utilize the Mechadyne cam like the Viper is using. All the tech exists, and I am pretty sure is quite producable. More a matter of costs associated with producing such a design. Might end up similar in cost to a DOHC, but would have packaging and weight advantage probably if you used the Mechadyne cam and didn't do the dual cam thing. Really think one or 2 cam ohv could still be less cost than a dohc V8.
What were looking at in a "Super complex, multi-lobe single cam VVT/VTEC" monster cam is this cam below, by a company called Mechadyne International. The last Viper used the "Super cam" see below...
Quote:

Our concentric camshafts enable dual-independent Variable Valve Timing or VVT on a single camshaft. Both the intake and exhaust centerline timings can be controlled to give optimum engine performance over the complete operating range. These cam assemblies form a key part of many of our VVA systems, but they are ideal for cam in block pushrod engines.
Our concentric camshafts are:
  • In volume production. The new Dodge Viper engine uses a concentric cam.
  • The best and most cost-effective solution for phasing adjacent cams on a single camshaft.
  • Essential for Dual Independent cam phasing in cam-in-block engines.
  • Used in our variable lift and duration system (VLD).

Video contributed by Dragoneye of the basic build and operation of the Cam in Cam (added 6 May 2011)

10spokess 04-10-2011 08:39 AM

Man that is just sick nasty man I want one now lol

IamJacksCamaro 04-10-2011 02:51 PM

Can't wait to see it in a Camaro.

truth411 04-10-2011 06:28 PM

Gen V V8s displacement, remain 5.3 and 6.2. Magazine and internet sites assume its 5.5 because its the displacement of the le-man V8. What they fail to realise is that max displacement allowed is 5.5 ltrs, if max displacement allowed was 7.0 then the le-man vette would have a 7.0 V8.

wildpaws 04-10-2011 06:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by truth411 (Post 3079029)
Gen V V8s displacement, remain 5.3 and 6.2. Magazine and internet sites assume its 5.5 because its the displacement of the le-man V8. What they fail to realise is that max displacement allowed is 5.5 ltrs, if max displacement allowed was 7.0 then the le-man vette would have a 7.0 V8.

I don't think we'll really know what displacements the GenV V8s will be until Chevy/GM officially releases some details. At this point I think that it is all speculation.
Clyde

b4z 04-10-2011 08:02 PM

Not that this has anything to do with motor pictured above:
I've heard that some guys who do weekend road racing will put a LS7 in their GTO/Camaro/Corvette then take out the cam and put in a LS1 factory cam and end up with about 470hp and a lower redline.
Since road racing involves a lot of extended high rpm running the valvetrain takes a beating. By leaving the factory LS7 valvesprings, etc. and taking the rpms down by 500+ they get almost bulletproof reliability and still have the 460 torque that the 7.0L motor offers in it's original 505hp guise.

When it comes to ALMS and Grand Am racing the motors in the Corvettes are not that impressive. They are so choked down by the governing body that hp is less than what you can buy off the street.

truth411 04-11-2011 10:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by b4z (Post 3079468)
Not that this has anything to do with motor pictured above:
I've heard that some guys who do weekend road racing will put a LS7 in their GTO/Camaro/Corvette then take out the cam and put in a LS1 factory cam and end up with about 470hp and a lower redline.
Since road racing involves a lot of extended high rpm running the valvetrain takes a beating. By leaving the factory LS7 valvesprings, etc. and taking the rpms down by 500+ they get almost bulletproof reliability and still have the 460 torque that the 7.0L motor offers in it's original 505hp guise.

When it comes to ALMS and Grand Am racing the motors in the Corvettes are not that impressive. They are so choked down by the governing body that hp is less than what you can buy off the street.

The LS7 is already bullet proof as is, way more reliable than the highly strungout italian/German motors and if something do go wrong waaaaaaay cheaper to fix to.

thePill 04-12-2011 12:15 AM

I'm going to attempt to explain this Cam in Cam operation. First, this CiC has nothing in common with VTEC, CiC does not alter the lift at all. VTEC was technically two cams in one, when a certain RPM was reached, a secondary lifter would lock into place on a secondary lobe that had a much higher lift. Honda's VTEC usually dropped its secondaries around 4500rpm, at which a higher lift was used only, duration could be altered depending on the secondary lobe and timing would remain the same.

Cam in Cam (CiC): This setup is made of two cams, a hollow exterior cam (hollow like a OHC's cam) and an internal solid cam. I don't know for sure but, the exterior cam would control all the intake valves and the internal cam would control the exhaust (could be the other way around). The VVT phaser (or the strange casting that surrounds the cam gear and adjust the cam timing) would contain two separate cam phasers for each cam. Probably a large outer phaser for the hollow exterior intake cam and an inner phaser for the small internal exhaust cam. Controlled either electrically or by oil pressure, it would adjust the intake and exhaust separately. You will notice the small pins in the cam itself, these pins would disengage the internal exhaust cam from the exterior cam by pushing the pin outward so that it can operate and adjust independently. The normal operation position of the pin would be "IN" and oil pressure or electronically (doubt it) would force the pin "OUT" so that the internal cam could spin independently from the exterior cam. Maybe oil pressure that is bled from the VVT phaser into the internal cam tube disengages the cam pin (pushes it up), I don't know for sure... I would have to whip up a few more diagrams before I could say for certain if bleed over could produce enough oil pressure to do that.

As the CiC operates independently, and the engine returns to normal operation, the lack of oil pressure inside the internal cam tube would allow the cam pin to return to the :IN" position, locking the cams together again for normal operation.

I hope this explanation is easy to follow...

LOWDOWN 04-12-2011 08:53 AM

RE: Gen-5 architecture:

The only "sacred cow", here, are the bore centers @ 4.40". Changing those makes retooling/manufacturing much more expen$ive, and instantly obsoletes ALL that the previous Gen SBCs are/were based on.

That is where the limiting factor for "bore" comes in. You cast the blocks with 4.40 centers, and sleeve down from there.

Valve sizes: you don't build a 4.00" bore engine with 2.20"/1.60"+ valves..."shrouding" happens. Take a look at LS1/LS6 engines: smallish bore = smallish valves. Pretty much max'd @ 2.05".

Valve sizes, alone, do NOT correlate to greater revs. In fact, a smaller valve weighs less, and theoretically can be rev'd higher... That's part of the reason that a 4-valve engine revs higher than an equivalent 2-valve.

Port dimensions and shapes are important to high revs. Bottlenecks in the ports restricts your usable rev capabilities... More air in/exhaust out = more power-better emissions, again depending on port design, and combustion chamber shapes. Port velocity is more important than all-out port size.

Raised cam, as seen in the Ilmor/Chev cum Mercedes Indy engine, = shorter pushrods = less valvetrain weight = higher rev capabilities. NASCAR engines utilize flat-tappet cams, much less efficient than rollers, and still achieve 9,000+ rpm for hours on end. Almost impossible to do with current production-based long pushrods...

With DI, optimized bore and stroke per displacement, and optimized cylinder head design, combined with short pushrods and VVT, these engines regardless of displacement will offer power-to-size with emissions AND economy previously only dreamed about...


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