Camaro5 Chevy Camaro Forum / Camaro ZL1, SS and V6 Forums - Camaro5.com

Camaro5 Chevy Camaro Forum / Camaro ZL1, SS and V6 Forums - Camaro5.com (http://www.camaro5.com/forums/index.php)
-   Camaro Z/28 Forum - Z/28 Specific Topics (http://www.camaro5.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=136)
-   -   Features of a ZL1 NOT Required on a Z/28 (http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=188238)

LOWDOWN 12-15-2011 11:02 AM

Features of a ZL1 NOT Required on a Z/28
 
In trying to rationalize a potential price point for an anticipated Z/28, several features of the $54,000-Base ZL1 seem to be redundant for a "track-based" ZEE. Some that come to mind:

* Rear Vision Package - Italian School of Race Car Driving: "What's behind you is NOT important..."

* Magnetic Ride Control - Optional, with "enhanced FE4" as Standard

* Body Color Roof Ditch Moulding - Optional, if even...

* Mirrors, Exterior Heated w/Auto-Dim Driver's Side - Optional, part of 2ZE Package

* Boston Accoustics, 9-speaker, 245 Watt - Optional

* Wireless PDIM - Optional, part of Convenience Package

* USB Port - Optional, part of Convenience Package

* Heated Front Seats - Optional, part of 2ZE Package

* Leather/Microfiber Seats - Optional, part of 2ZE Package

* Driver's 6-Way Power Seat - Optional, part of 2ZE Package

* Passanger's 6-Way Power Seat - Optional, part of 2ZE Package

* HUD - Optional (?)

* Universal Home Remote - Optional, part of Convenience Package

* Map Pocket, rear of Passanger Seat - Optional, part of 2ZE Package

* Trans/Diff. Coolers - Optional, part of Track Prep. Package

...and of course...

* LSA - substituted by LS7

* 1LS Trim - Standard, with Manual Seats, cloth-covered

Base Price, 1EZ37/LS7/MG9/FE4+ = $46,995

Sound about right?

For those on a more restricted budget, with slightly reduced expectations, how about a 1SS + 1LE (w/MG9/MRC) + 3.73 gears = $41,500...?

rayhawk 12-15-2011 07:37 PM

I don't understand all the talk about an LS7 over the LSA to save money? I thought the extra machining, titanium rods, etc, made the price gap between the two relatively small.

Joe in T.O. 12-15-2011 09:00 PM

Ground effects would have to go.

ShnOmac 12-15-2011 11:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rayhawk (Post 4172182)
I don't understand all the talk about an LS7 over the LSA to save money?

It's not about money.... Its about being NA and high revving! :headbang:

boxmonkeyracing 12-16-2011 12:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joe in T.O. (Post 4172655)
Ground effects would have to go.

ground effects that are there for a purpose other then looks no. in a track car they help provide more down force and that will help with handling at speed.


as for the rest of the list sounds reasonable but I'm still on the wagon that we won't see an ls7 in the car. by the time the Z28 could be released DI will be making a main stream entry.

The IOM Ninja 12-16-2011 02:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShnOmac (Post 4173605)
It's not about money.... Its about being NA and high revving! :headbang:

A 7000 RPM is not a high revving engine..... 9000 RPM at least....

right to travel 12-16-2011 08:13 AM

rear seats not required.
recaro front seats required

LOWDOWN 12-16-2011 09:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShnOmac (Post 4173605)
It's not about money.... Its about being NA and high revving! :headbang:

...and 200-250 lb. savings, mostly off the nose..."as required" vs. "pimped out"...

Z/28 > BOSS LS...not GT 500

When you compare the Z06 to the ZR1, performance-wise ('Ring time is only 3 seconds difference), a strong case can be made for a lower-contented, lower-priced, near-equal-performing, driver-rewarded Camaro...worthy of a certain i-car-nic badge...

Besides, the price spread between a 2SS (mid-$30s) and the ZL1 (mid-$50s) needs to be bridged...

LOWDOWN 12-16-2011 09:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The IOM Ninja (Post 4173989)
A 7000 RPM is not a high revving engine..... 9000 RPM at least....

For an OEM-warranted OHV 6.0L+ engine, 7,000 is "state of the art"...

2cnd chance 12-16-2011 11:52 AM

1LE + LS7 = Z28

Options: Better Stereo, USB, Leather/Microfiber Suede, Pedders Justice System, Wing Spoiler, Rear Seat - delete, HUD...






Please add to the options list:

Blizzard 12-16-2011 12:46 PM

I would say the HUD should be standard, lets the racer keep his eye's focused on the apex while still able to see telemetry data.

htron50 12-16-2011 03:58 PM

LOWDOWN you've got it about right, but GM won't create a Z28 with all those deletes. It will be a retail street car, not a bare knuckle track racer. That said, you have to add back in quite a few bells & whistles for a price approaching $48,325.

LOWDOWN 12-16-2011 06:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by htron50 (Post 4177242)
It will be a retail street car, not a bare knuckle track racer. That said, you have to add back in quite a few bells & whistles for a price approaching $48,325.

$46,995 would include "enhanced FE4". Delete that, add MRC, and $48,500 would be achievable...

Actually, if you approach the original "content", above, from the other direction, what we'd have is:

* 1SS
* 1LS Trim - no 6-way Power Seats (weight-savings)
* 1LE Mechanicals - as per SEMA concept, with LS3/MG9 and 3.73 gears

1SS/1LE > BOSS = $41,500

Z/28 - as above except:
* MRC - Optional (function vs. weight-savings/sanctioning)
* Delete LS3 - add LS7

Final result: Z/28 > BOSS LS

Recaros, along with the trans/diff. coolers, would make a great Track Prep option, perhaps along with Rear Seat Delete (the "problem" with RSD is you now move into Corvette territory, you increase Insurance Rating...and you'll save less than 30 lb...more likely to be a DIY).

OldScoolCamaro 12-16-2011 08:22 PM

Pete said Pedder's could probably tinker with the MRC, offer a bit stouter and shorter spring. Looks like MRC is gonna be standard moving forward, but a FE4 with Pedder's enhancements will be the way to go IMHO. LSA VS LS7 is a relatively small < a couple K if I remember correctly> difference in price. LS7 is a high rev engine, look at the HP and torque charts and see where the LS7 is still there at 7 grand, and probably pulls beyond that. Given that it is a blueprinted motor with near bullet proof hardened bottom end and reciprocals, <there was a post where upper end wall thickness was an internal problem I think?>, however, 7 grand is not the top end of the RPM envelope IMHO, and that platform has the goods to hit production lines as is. The cuiser weight Champion.!! :chevy:

DGthe3 12-16-2011 10:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LOWDOWN (Post 4174859)
...and 200-250 lb. savings, mostly off the nose..."as required" vs. "pimped out"...

Whoa there ... the LSA does not weigh 200 lbs more than the LS7. More like 100 lbs.

LOWDOWN 12-17-2011 02:52 PM

The difference in weight between a ZL1, as equipped, and an LS7'd "Base" 1ZE, as listed, could be 200-250 lb. ZL1 contains 2SS+ trimmings, all the electronic doodads, MRC etc. etc.

ZL1 = 4120
1SS = 3850 (-270)
LS3 = LS7
Enhanced FE4 = very little over FE4, and less than MRC
MG9 + Brembo 6/4 + HD Diff - (2) 6-way Seats - Forged 20s etc. = 3875/3920 end result...3875 or so with enhanced FE4, 3920 with MRC.

jordan 572 12-17-2011 09:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LOWDOWN (Post 4174972)
For an OEM-warranted OHV 6.0L+ engine, 7,000 is "state of the art"...

:word: The key words in that part are OHV if the op of this statement even knows the difference. The ls7 is the highest revving OHV engine I believe on the market

midnighter 12-17-2011 10:10 PM

I like the Z28 moniker.

Blueclyde 12-18-2011 09:55 PM

I don't see where you are getting the $8k out of the base price. The MRC being an option is a good chunk but most of the other items listed do not really add up. The LS7 has to be more expensive than the LSA, plus I'd bet is on the chopping block.

LOWDOWN 12-19-2011 09:02 AM

LS7 "viability" has been beaten to death, here, over the last 6 months...search "Wixom" in the Z/28 Section...which, BTW, has AT LEAST a 2-year lifespan, according to "sources".

Pricing Rationale:

$54,095 (ZL1 Base) - $46,995 (projected) = $7,100, or $5,500 with (MRC - enhanced FE4)...

ZL1 is equipped with features well beyond a 2SS...which is $3,600 more than a 1SS.

1SS is roughly = 1LT in car content (excluding driveline)...which is $2,000 more than 1LS.

That's $5,600 in non-mechanical content...NOT including ZL1-specifics.

LS7 crate engine - LS3 crate engine (as per GMPP) = $7,000, about $250 less than LSA...and 100+ pounds less, all by itself...

In the past, when Selective Ride (MRC) was available on Corvette as a free-flow option, the option price was about $2,000. Also made by Delphi.

IF non-MRC (- $2,000), add for enhanced FE4 (bars 'n bushings)...on a substitution basis, call it $500...NET of $1,500.

The HD Tremec (MG9) and HD 3.73 Diff/Axles and 6/4 Brembos and forged '20s/Goodyears are a constant, be it ZL1, Z/28, or 1LE.

2cnd chance 12-19-2011 09:55 AM

Lowdown, haven't I heard this all before? ;)

SEARCH AND LEARN!

OldScoolCamaro 12-19-2011 10:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2cnd chance (Post 4188451)
Lowdown, haven't I heard this all before? ;)

SEARCH AND LEARN!

Amen bro.....sigh...and on the ZL1 side there are those who actually argue the point that it's ok to the contrary. LOL, library catalogue's, hand searching through books for info, actually finding the information, reading it, and assimilating it...on one's own????....a dead art, sorry I digress<again>...., ok now back to the Z-28 channel....:D

Blueclyde 12-19-2011 08:57 PM

OK guys. I'm out. Sorry for butting into your Z28 discussion here...

Synerbee 12-20-2011 03:06 AM

If there will be a Z/28, it is probably not going to get an LS7 hate to break it to you. If anything I would guess an LS3 with a more aggressive cam, upgraded exhaust and a beefed up suspension, better designed CAI and some weight reductions.

LOWDOWN 12-20-2011 10:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blueclyde (Post 4192118)
OK guys. I'm out. Sorry for butting into your Z28 discussion here...

Actually, Clyde, we're simply 'splainin' the rationale, compiled over many-many months here. No need to flee, and your contributions and opinions are sought. It's just that, for some here, we've been 'round 'n 'round a time or twelve. We DON'T want a ZL1 (and we're very happy it was named as such!); we DO want something more than a 1SS/1LE; we recognize the elephant(s) in the room (BOSS and BOSS LS) and we expect/anticipate GM to come up with valid responses at BOSS-correct price points (low-$40s and upper-$40s) before the Gen-5's sunset.

Low-$40s = 1SS/1LE, pretty much as shown @ SEMA, only minus the "showcar" trimmings (leather 'n such). Offer it Base as a 1SS, and offer a 2SS-style upgrade to satify "those" folks...

Upper-$40s DOES afford (no pun) a legitimate opportunity for an LS7'd badge-worthy Gen-5 Camaro, to ably compete against ANY Dearborn-borne BOSS, as outlined above...

I do NOT expect a 1LE to be priced below a BOSS. GM simply doesn't NEED to. Same with the BOSS LS competitor. What's THE most outstanding track-able Camaro POSSIBLE for something between $45 and $50? And, if it fits the budget, WHY would we "settle" for less than the LS7?! If GM massages a 6.2L, it will still only be a 6.2. The LS7 will still equal/exceed the 6.2's "warrantiable" power and, left unmodified/unboosted, the LS7 will live a very l-o-n-g and charming life. And willingly tame the bucking broncos...

The problem with a "massaged" LS3? It doesn't exist in 60/100 (OE warranty), emissions-compliant, certified-'n-validated form...and that takes time and money that, apparently to this point, ain't happenin'... Every dollar $pent on an LS3 makes a buck closer to an LS7...

WIXOM: According to "sources", there is a bright-shiny future till summer-'13, at least. Plans beyond then are "incomplete"... If an LS7'd ZEE was intro'd, and demand for the car was "as anticipated", Wixom would be assured an even brighter-shinier future!

Gen-5 "LT1": NO ONE is telling anything about this engine's n/a abilities. Unless there's 470+ hp AND torque, it will deliver LESS than an LS7, which is required to move a 300+ lb. heavier Camaro vs. the power-to-weight of the BOSS. You need more than trick suspension and grippy rubber to track-match the BOSS... You need to ably move 3850-3920 pounds of Oshawa-oozing muscle, or at least make it THINK its muscle...and NOT Darlington Beach moss...

The other unanswered questions about this engine are, when will it be fully available, and will that leave enough time to implement a badge-worthy Gen-5 Camaro as it nears its sunset? Again...NO concrete answers available...yet...

Stay tuned.


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:46 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.