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-   -   Why no root style supercharger?? (http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=195531)

bmorecam 01-14-2012 10:10 AM

Why no root style supercharger??
 
Can anyone explain why no positive displacement blower for our V6 camaro?

Ice Demon 01-14-2012 10:44 AM

I personally would not want to go with a centrifugal blower on my v6. I would prefer a roots type blower :mad0260: unfortunately I think the main reason is because of the tuning problems. Most companys don't want to use Trifecta. Also when the camaro first came out all the companys where focused on the v8 but I hope and pray that companys like Kenne Bell and Whipple will make a kit for our v6.

Mods on v6 are: K&N cai with washer bottle delete, BBK longtube headers with High flow cats, TrifectaTune and muffler delete

cjt037 01-14-2012 11:07 AM

i could see sombody putting a 3.6 kenne bell on a 3.6 camaro.

bmorecam 01-14-2012 11:08 AM

hp tuners is on the horizon so I guess we will find out if is really the tuning. I think another reason why alot of the companies have given up was because of fueling issues, but the fueling is supposedly fixed using brodix heads and two HPFP, and another option I believe is using injectors directly on top of the manifold. All thanks to Tracy.
On the flipside, Vince can do everything another tuner can do with other software...once I did hear that alot of these bigger companies think the v6 camaro is a waste of time though, EFI live one of those.:iono:

I would love to have a KB or whipple on the v6:)

cjt037 01-14-2012 11:10 AM

the fuel issue is not cheap to get around at all tho.

Ice Demon 01-14-2012 11:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cjt037 (Post 4318983)
i could see sombody putting a 3.6 kenne bell on a 3.6 camaro.

Yea that person would probably be me lol

cjt037 01-14-2012 11:18 AM

I would love to see that. hell i be happy with a 2.9 whipple.. but i like my garrett t-4 to.

Ice Demon 01-14-2012 11:23 AM

In about 2yr ill be going fi on my v6 and I want a roots blower period.

Ice Demon 01-14-2012 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SC2150 (Post 4319112)
Under hood clearance will be one of the big issues as you need room to have the intercooler between the blower & the heads. Other than that it is just fabbing the lower plenum to work and it can be done. We may look at that in the future with a 1900 but with the turbos and centri systems our plate is kinda full until we get funded and into a larger facility. :thumbsup:

Cool, if you ever need a car for R&D for a roots blower let me know :)

MichaelH 01-14-2012 12:12 PM

yea i would ship my car to you from cali tracy if you did a KB supercharger haha

CamaroDreams07 01-14-2012 03:06 PM

This is what I was always hoping for too

gwbates3 01-14-2012 09:51 PM

:headbang:

calbert1999 01-14-2012 10:33 PM

Probably because of the heat soak from a roots blower on a V6 would increase the IAT's way too much, and even meth wouldn't be able to resolve it.

Most people like the looks of roots blowers, but you'll also notice everybody with a roots blower also need a meth kit, while most folks with ProChargers have no need for meth because there is no heat transfer from the blower to the engine, and the cooling method used on a centri does not use "hot coolant" to cool the blower (to cool the air).

You're best bet for a blower on a V6 most likely a centri or turbo system.

scrming 01-15-2012 05:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by calbert1999 (Post 4321541)
Probably because of the heat soak from a roots blower on a V6 would increase the IAT's way too much, and even meth wouldn't be able to resolve it.

Most people like the looks of roots blowers, but you'll also notice everybody with a roots blower also need a meth kit, while most folks with ProChargers have no need for meth because there is no heat transfer from the blower to the engine, and the cooling method used on a centri does not use "hot coolant" to cool the blower (to cool the air).

You're best bet for a blower on a V6 most likely a centri or turbo system.

Not true at all at all on roots requiring a W/M kit... Simply run a air-to-water intercooler. As for "hot coolant", dump a bag of ice in before you make a pass at the track or BETTER YET, go with the RX Super Chiller thing! LOL! Lots of folks simply run the intercooler without meth. In fact I was just talking to Lidio over at Alternative Auto and he says very few guys are opting for meth and he installs a LOT of roots type blowers. BTW, there is nothing wrong at all with a properly setup meth kit and the power gains can be very impressive!

Also not all centri's are air-to-air.... Vortech uses air-to-water... although i think they do know offer air-to-air. But with water-to-air.. put that nice big reservoir in the trunk and load it up with a big bag of ice! When you are racing in August and the ambient temp is close to 100 degree, that cold ICE WATER isn't so hot! LOL

Thing is roots type blowers have never been that available for the V6s... so don't think it's really the tuning issues... Look at the V6 Mustang. There are already a couple of centri kits out for the new 3.7 but no roots. In the previous 4.0 V6 there was only 1 kit and that was a Eaton from Explorer Express... Took them quite a while to bring that out for the 4.0 in the Mustang... So even if the tuning in the Camaro was simple, not sure we would see a root type blower available...

calbert1999 01-15-2012 11:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scrming (Post 4322176)
Not true at all at all on roots requiring a W/M kit... Simply run a air-to-water intercooler. As for "hot coolant", dump a bag of ice in before you make a pass at the track or BETTER YET, go with the RX Super Chiller thing! LOL! Lots of folks simply run the intercooler without meth. In fact I was just talking to Lidio over at Alternative Auto and he says very few guys are opting for meth and he installs a LOT of roots type blowers. BTW, there is nothing wrong at all with a properly setup meth kit and the power gains can be very impressive!

Also not all centri's are air-to-air.... Vortech uses air-to-water... although i think they do know offer air-to-air. But with water-to-air.. put that nice big reservoir in the trunk and load it up with a big bag of ice! When you are racing in August and the ambient temp is close to 100 degree, that cold ICE WATER isn't so hot! LOL

Thing is roots type blowers have never been that available for the V6s... so don't think it's really the tuning issues... Look at the V6 Mustang. There are already a couple of centri kits out for the new 3.7 but no roots. In the previous 4.0 V6 there was only 1 kit and that was a Eaton from Explorer Express... Took them quite a while to bring that out for the 4.0 in the Mustang... So even if the tuning in the Camaro was simple, not sure we would see a root type blower available...

People don't have to make the right decisions, but I would think most installers would "recommend" a meth kit after doing a few pulls and analyzing the IAT's. The fact of the matter is there is a lot of heat soak from roots style blowers to the engine.

Regardless, of the varying methods (meth, chiller, ice, et al) to cool down the roots style blower (engine) my point it it's always better "not" to have to worry about any secondary systems. I dont' "need" any of that on my ProCharger setup.

I don't want to use meth if I don't "have" to, and I don't want a trunk full of ice or any other gadgets to keep my IAT's cool if my blower choice doesn't transfer any additional heat to my engine. Additionally, what do you do when doing road course laps? Stop mid-way to cool the SC?

And, yes you're right ProCharger the first to come out with the Air-to-Air method and now everyone else wants to follow suit.

scrming 01-15-2012 11:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by calbert1999 (Post 4322792)
People don't have to make the right decisions, but I would think most installers would "recommend" a meth kit after doing a few pulls and analyzing the IAT's. The fact of the matter is there is a lot of heat soak from roots style blowers to the engine.

Regardless, of the varying methods (meth, chiller, ice, et al) to cool down the roots style blower (engine) my point it it's always better "not" to have to worry about any secondary systems. I dont' "need" any of that on my ProCharger setup.

I don't want to use meth if I don't "have" to, and I don't want a trunk full of ice or any other gadgets to keep my IAT's cool if my blower choice doesn't transfer any additional heat to my engine. Additionally, what do you do when doing road course laps? Stop mid-way to cool the SC?

And, yes you're right ProCharger the first to come out with the Air-to-Air method and now everyone else wants to follow suit.

But you are at the mercy of of Mother Nature and the ambient air temp... Air to air is not the end all to be all... They make gadgets for air to air also... Check out the CO2 spray bars.

And of course the other benefit of a meth system is the octane increase effect, allowing you run more boost and timing. There are some serious gains to be had with this gadget....

calbert1999 01-15-2012 01:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scrming (Post 4322863)
But you are at the mercy of of Mother Nature and the ambient air temp... Air to air is not the end all to be all... They make gadgets for air to air also... Check out the CO2 spray bars.

And of course the other benefit of a meth system is the octane increase effect, allowing you run more boost and timing. There are some serious gains to be had with this gadget....

The outside air temperatures will never be as hot as the fluid running through an engine, and that's the reason why the ProCharger works so well to push cooler air into the intake, and why the roots blowers don't thus the need for ice, and chillers.

As for increse in HP using meth.; My understanding is can use meth to cool the cylinder temp (which will maintain what ever power you already have vs a reduction in power due to hotter IAT's) OR use it as a fuel additive to provide power above and beyond what you have already. One method does nothing to increase power, the other does nothing to cool temps.

The_Blur 01-15-2012 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SC2150 (Post 4319112)
Under hood clearance will be one of the big issues as you need room to have the intercooler between the blower & the heads. Other than that it is just fabbing the lower plenum to work and it can be done. We may look at that in the future with a 1900 but with the turbos and centri systems our plate is kinda full until we get funded and into a larger facility. :thumbsup:

Would it be possible to bundle an appropriate hood with a kit? All you'd have to do is call a couple hood vendors and see what wholesale price is or make a deal with someone to sell the hood every time you sell a kit—kind of a dropship sort of thing.

scrming 01-15-2012 01:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by calbert1999 (Post 4323122)
The outside air temperatures will never be as hot as the fluid running through an engine, and that's the reason why the ProCharger works so well to push cooler air into the intake, and why the roots blowers don't thus the need for ice, and chillers.

As for increse in HP using meth.; My understanding is can use meth to cool the cylinder temp (which will maintain what ever power you already have vs a reduction in power due to hotter IAT's) OR use it as a fuel additive to provide power above and beyond what you have already. One method does nothing to increase power, the other does nothing to cool temps.

Meth cools the air charge... and suppresses detonation.. This allows you to get more aggressive with your tune....

The EcoBoost is an air to air intercooler system and works just fine... However there are some SHO guys running Meth and they typically knock .5 off there 1/4 mile ETs... Seriously look at this setup myself...

also for other that might not know:


scrming 01-15-2012 01:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Blur (Post 4323134)
Would it be possible to bundle an appropriate hood with a kit? All you'd have to do is call a couple hood vendors and see what wholesale price is or make a deal with someone to sell the hood every time you sell a kit—kind of a dropship sort of thing.

Would be a very expensive kit.. I would think it would price it out of the market?

How does the V6 engine height compare to the SS?

The_Blur 01-15-2012 01:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scrming (Post 4323260)
Would be a very expensive kit.. I would think it would price it out of the market?

How does the V6 engine height compare to the SS?

The hood could be an optional component. :iono: If clearance is a problem, I think people who really want roots are going to have to compromise by spending more. Otherwise, it's never going to come to fruition. It is either going to be a new hood or a weak supercharger setup. We can't expect a company to reengineer how superchargers fit on the engine for this setup.

scrming 01-15-2012 01:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Blur (Post 4323273)
The hood could be an optional component. :iono: If clearance is a problem, I think people who really want roots are going to have to compromise by spending more. Otherwise, it's never going to come to fruition. It is either going to be a new hood or a weak supercharger setup. We can't expect a company to reengineer how superchargers fit on the engine for this setup.

well, there is always TURBOS!!! :happyanim: LOL!

calbert1999 01-15-2012 06:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SC2150 (Post 4323342)
Meth injection does both...and depending on the methanol to water ratio it can be used effectively to cool IAT's, add power, add octaine, and add fuel. On our 1000-1200 hp drag motors we run straight methanol fuel (N/A) and you can put your hand on the intake manifold and it is cold to the touch. We also have to restrict the coolant to get the motors even up to operating temp.

We are using it for both cooling and adding fuel/octaine to Gretchen running 7-8#'s boost.

Yes we sure could add the hood with the entire kit....possibly with a lexan window to see the blower as well. Scrmng is correct that the price would be high....but what isn't with our cars!




Meth does allow us to be more agrresive with the boost & tune for sure. In fact with the heads up cars today running 2000-2500 hp Methanol injection is the only adder that can control the amount of boost needed for the power to be competitive.

The Co2 spray works well for a few runs and then its fill the tank again. Add the weight and its not very practical.

Water chests full of ice only last a few rounds and then you need to drain & refill.....and the added weight again is a minus. We abanonded them 10-15 years ago due to the negatives in drag racing.

The chiller adds maybe 9#'s and is run continueous with nothing ever to buy or refill again street or strip or road race. I have yet to see any solution that even comes close and can't think of any negatives.

We will work on a roots style in the future for sure when we catch up on all the other DI V6 projects. :thumbsup:

I don't doubt it, but remember we are talking about 6cyl. setups. Seems to me that if it were that easy to do (put a blower) all the manufacturers would have systems in place already.

CamaroDreams07 01-16-2012 09:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SC2150 (Post 4323342)
Meth injection does both...and depending on the methanol to water ratio it can be used effectively to cool IAT's, add power, add octaine, and add fuel. On our 1000-1200 hp drag motors we run straight methanol fuel (N/A) and you can put your hand on the intake manifold and it is cold to the touch. We also have to restrict the coolant to get the motors even up to operating temp.

We are using it for both cooling and adding fuel/octaine to Gretchen running 7-8#'s boost.

Yes we sure could add the hood with the entire kit....possibly with a lexan window to see the blower as well. Scrmng is correct that the price would be high....but what isn't with our cars!




Meth does allow us to be more agrresive with the boost & tune for sure. In fact with the heads up cars today running 2000-2500 hp Methanol injection is the only adder that can control the amount of boost needed for the power to be competitive.

The Co2 spray works well for a few runs and then its fill the tank again. Add the weight and its not very practical.

Water chests full of ice only last a few rounds and then you need to drain & refill.....and the added weight again is a minus. We abanonded them 10-15 years ago due to the negatives in drag racing.

The chiller adds maybe 9#'s and is run continueous with nothing ever to buy or refill again street or strip or road race. I have yet to see any solution that even comes close and can't think of any negatives.

We will work on a roots style in the future for sure when we catch up on all the other DI V6 projects. :thumbsup:

This would be a worthwhile addition to the price IMO. Sounds awesome. I'm still holding off to see which of the RX FI systems I spend my money on. I still wants top mount SC, but we'll see how it all turns out.

devilisht2003 04-22-2013 04:42 PM

How close? Getting close to buying a Camaro and trying to decide between SS or LFX with some form of FI. The roots style charger REALLY peaks my interest due to the bottom end power.


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