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-   -   Newbie at the drags, help me beat Mustangs (http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=244712)

Fraxum 08-17-2012 11:19 PM

Newbie at the drags, help me beat Mustangs
 
I have to admit that back in the day I was a very amateur street racer. Kids and witnessing horrendous accidents cured me. But tonight years later,I finally went to where the real racers go, the drag strip. I have wanted to do this for a while, but what pushed me into it now is my local Camaro club is running a drag strip challenge with the local Mustang club. I need to represent.

So at the Test and Tune tonight I think I had the fastest car on street tires but I guess it was a slow Friday night at Atco. My driving was not the fastest but when I pulled up to this beautiful orange Challenger R/T the guy came over and shouted in my window. "I will not line up against you!" It made me chuckle.

And I had a few fans from the stands coming up to me saying I was driving the hell out of my car. It must be the orange stripes on the car. And my exhaust, while not all that loud makes a really strong sound.

As I said a slow night. But fun! I even had a 12 year old junior driver dragster driver giving me launching tips. Listening to him got my RT to under a second.

But I need more advice. I think I have the middle of the track down with clean shifting, breaking loose a little shifting to second and third. My problems are at the line and the big end. I posted my best time slip tonight and my first drag run ever below. On that first run I had no idea where the traps were and I let off early. Later I learned to look for the win light. I won all but 2 races. This was the car and not me.

This was a very humid night, right before a storm, at about 80 degrees.

Off the line my best 60 foot was 2.163. Some were so bad I will never post those slips. With stock tires and a slippery track what is the best way to leave? This best 60 foot was leaving at 1500 with only a little slippage and no bogging. Should I go to higher rpms with more slip? Will my clutch survive? From what I have read here if I can get to 2 flat that is about the best that can be done with sock tires and those SUV wheels.

On the traps I was hitting the rev limiter about a second before I saw the win light. So with my bolton mods, is the best bet to shift to 4th say around 6,000 rpm?

The MPH at the traps was the same on every good run, right at 110 mph. A car with my mods should trap higher, so I guess 4th is a must.

And my 13.370 best ET is sad since I know my car should do better. Even though I am am disappointed at my ETs, it was a fun night. I want to get to another T&T night before the club meet.

One more thing I just noticed, that white BMW 335i coupe (car (113) that ate my lunch on my first run ever was watching Camaro taillights receding on my best run. Justice was served.

http://www.stutzbach.com/camaro/Atco001.jpg

SGT Stretch 08-18-2012 12:20 AM

1 Attachment(s)
I drop TP to 25psi on my stock tires and give them a light haze burnout. Just enough to start the smoke.

A tune would do you wonders for your ET's. You probably don't want to do it but just sayin.
I usually launch between 2300-2500 and let out the clutch a lot similar to leaving quickly at a stop light

Also I feel your pain on the rev limiter at the stripe so I started shifting to 4th.

I'm still a beginner myself but talking to people here and at the track like you have has helped alot. Here is my fast slip from doing these. This is my fastest time to date. And a short video of beating a mustang lol.

I'm car #396

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=weUx...e_gdata_player

Hope some of this helps and gives you an idea of where you will be with a tune.

Rcfiddy1 08-18-2012 02:10 AM

CAnt help with your shifting but I would also raise my front tires a few above max. Also try getting use to leaving on the 3rd yellow, it wont hekp your et but it will get you gout of the hole before the other guy. Dont smoke the stock tires too much or they get slippery.

Fraxum 08-18-2012 08:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SGT Stretch (Post 5459934)
I drop TP to 25psi on my stock tires and give them a light haze burnout. Just enough to start the smoke.

A tune would do you wonders for your ET's. You probably don't want to do it but just sayin.
I usually launch between 2300-2500 and let out the clutch a lot similar to leaving quickly at a stop light

Also I feel your pain on the rev limiter at the stripe so I started shifting to 4th.

I'm still a beginner myself but talking to people here and at the track like you have has helped alot. Here is my fast slip from doing these. This is my fastest time to date. And a short video of beating a mustang lol.

I'm car #396

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=weUx...e_gdata_player

Hope some of this helps and gives you an idea of where you will be with a tune.

Thanks. Nice! You beat that faster Mustang with your RT! I need more practice. And I like your MPH. What are your mods? Stock tires?

At Atco you have to drive through the water. So I was spinning the tires for a second or so.

Good point about lowering tire pressure. I forgot to do that. And from doing more reading here you can get below 2 seconds on the 60 foot with stock tires.

No tune for now. Still trying to hang on to my warranty. I should be able to see times likes yours with more practice and a better DA.

Fraxum 08-18-2012 09:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rcfiddy1 (Post 5460083)
CAnt help with your shifting but I would also raise my front tires a few above max. Also try getting use to leaving on the 3rd yellow, it wont hekp your et but it will get you gout of the hole before the other guy. Dont smoke the stock tires too much or they get slippery.

Thsnks. I will try that too. I suppose I also could ditch my spare tire and my Amp/Sub box. And lose some weight.

SGT Stretch 08-18-2012 11:51 AM

Dropping easy weight like a spare or sub box is a good idea.

My mods are tsp long tubes, CAI intake scoop and washer relocation, Hurst short throw, muffler delete. And yes that was all on stock rubber.

The time slip pictured was me vs a cammed vette..the mustang races were in the video I linked.

Medi0cr3 08-18-2012 07:31 PM

I had a bad night as well last night. I was over focused and forgot to do a lot of things. I did some good burn outs on the stock perelli p-zeros to clean them off. I remember last weekend I was around 2.3k RPM as well and it took off very clean and no wheel hop or bogging and @ 30psi in the tires. Seemed to work out well.. Last night I tried 25 PSI and had some issues with longer burn outs and the tires not grabbing as well as they should at the start... I saw a post about letting the clutch out like your getting off of a green light at a traffic intersection was a pretty good idea and I'm confident i did something like that last weekend. I'm pretty concerned with my RT as well. Any ideas?

SGT Stretch 08-18-2012 07:51 PM

RT really has nothing to do with anything unless you plan on doing bracket or heads up racing. But if that's something your looking into then leaving on the third yellow is what you gotta do. If you see green before you let out your late.

I've spent the better part of the last couple months getting to know some of the guys here and even just talking to the random "pros" at the track all these have helped me a lot. Maybe @ the 25 psi mark you were burning the tires just a little much. Just give em a nice light haze just enough to spin the dirt off. Sometimes they smoke ever so slightly when I do it sometimes they don't.

SGT Stretch 08-18-2012 07:57 PM

Were you driving through or around the water box? I always go around and have the track official back me up to just the edge where it is damp or wet but no standing water and that is where I start my burnout. The stock tires will pick up a lot of that water and keep it not to mention your front tires will do the same.

Just go around it until your on radials and skinnys. When I get my radials on I still plan on going around but backing into the box to get them wet rolling forward then doing my burnout.

Fraxum 08-18-2012 10:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SGT Stretch (Post 5462402)
Were you driving through or around the water box? I always go around and have the track official back me up to just the edge where it is damp or wet but no standing water and that is where I start my burnout. The stock tires will pick up a lot of that water and keep it not to mention your front tires will do the same.

Just go around it until your on radials and skinnys. When I get my radials on I still plan on going around but backing into the box to get them wet rolling forward then doing my burnout.

At Atco (very close to my house) you have to drive through the water. As a result they have to keep mopping the approach to the lights. I do spin the tires a little to get most of the water off but I am sure I am picking up more as the street cars don't always warm up the tires. It really seems too easy to spin the tires on the launch. Maybe 28 PSI will help.

Rock36 08-19-2012 05:12 AM

In addition to the above tips on launching, you are going to have to go into 4th. Bouncing off the rev limiter is definitely leaving a tenth or two and a mph or two on the table.

You might try short shifting into 4th at 6k like you suggested and note the results next time you are out, but hitting the rev limiter is costing you both E/T and mph.

Also, I'm going to guess you are leaving some time with your shifting in general maybe another tenth or so. Your 2.1 60' isn't that bad, and if you believe one tenth improvement in the 60ft equals a two tenth improvement in E/T (this rule of thumb was never true for me ever), then going to a more respectable 1.9 60ft on streets would only put you at about a 12.9/13.0...again assuming the rule of thumb is true.

If you had a video I could tell you if your rpms were hanging too long between shifts.

Fraxum 08-19-2012 10:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rock36 (Post 5463534)
In addition to the above tips on launching, you are going to have to go into 4th. Bouncing off the rev limiter is definitely leaving a tenth or two and a mph or two on the table.

You might try short shifting into 4th at 6k like you suggested and note the results next time you are out, but hitting the rev limiter is costing you both E/T and mph.

Also, I'm going to guess you are leaving some time with your shifting in general maybe another tenth or so. Your 2.1 60' isn't that bad, and if you believe one tenth improvement in the 60ft equals a two tenth improvement in E/T (this rule of thumb was never true for me ever), then going to a more respectable 1.9 60ft on streets would only put you at about a 12.9/13.0...again assuming the rule of thumb is true.

If you had a video I could tell you if your rpms were hanging too long between shifts.

Thanks! Yes I will try the short shift to 4th. I was by myself so no videos, maybe I will bring some fans next time. And even though I thought my shifting was tight, (but of this I am not 100% sure) i did slightly let off the throttle especially going into second. If I hit second too hard I can get too much spin. I just get a slight bark going into third.

On my worst pass, other than my first bundle of nerves, I left too hard and spent too much time spinning. This threw me off and I missed second to add to my misery. A rather quick Honda Civic blew me off. I lined up against him a second time, but I think he broke on the line.

Rock36 08-20-2012 12:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fraxum (Post 5466086)
Thanks! Yes I will try the short shift to 4th. I was by myself so no videos, maybe I will bring some fans next time. And even though I thought my shifting was tight, (but of this I am not 100% sure) i did slightly let off the throttle especially going into second. If I hit second too hard I can get too much spin. I just get a slight bark going into third.

On my worst pass, other than my first bundle of nerves, I left too hard and spent too much time spinning. This threw me off and I missed second to add to my misery. A rather quick Honda Civic blew me off. I lined up against him a second time, but I think he broke on the line.

I realize I left an incomplete thought on my last post.

What I meant was if you improve your 60' to a ~1.9 on streets and still end up with a 12.9/13.0 @ 110+ mph, that would tell me somewhere time is being left on the table, because your trap speed is still high. Most likely this is because you're hitting the limiter, so your shifting might be tight in all actuality. Where to short shift 4th might be a little bit of trial and error.

It also helps to write notes on your time slips for stuff like this. Writing launch rpms, where you are shifting into 4th etc, can help you isolate the effects of different things you try.

Fraxum 08-22-2012 10:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rock36 (Post 5466531)
I realize I left an incomplete thought on my last post.

What I meant was if you improve your 60' to a ~1.9 on streets and still end up with a 12.9/13.0 @ 110+ mph, that would tell me somewhere time is being left on the table, because your trap speed is still high. Most likely this is because you're hitting the limiter, so your shifting might be tight in all actuality. Where to short shift 4th might be a little bit of trial and error.

It also helps to write notes on your time slips for stuff like this. Writing launch rpms, where you are shifting into 4th etc, can help you isolate the effects of different things you try.

Thanks! I went back again last night, but even though I stayed to the end I got only four passes. :(

MY shifting rhythm and 60 foot were both off from my last time. However my ETs stayed about the same (13.3-13-8) and the shift into 4th cost me 2 MPH @ 108. The air was better and the temps were in the 70s. I also ditched my spare tire and the crap in my trunk. All in all I was disappointed in me. MY only improvement was in my RTs which were .5 or less. Still room to improve there. 3rd yellow. 3rd yellow. 3rd yellow.

I plan to go to the T&T Friday night and work on my launch. I was thinking I would try the Launch Control to become more consistent. Then once I have the rest worked out come back and work on a clean manual launch. However after reading more about it I think not.

Pro Stock John 08-22-2012 10:25 PM

I'm not a stick guy but I grew up in South Jersey (Mays Landing, Absecon.

Based on your just shy of running 84mph in the 1/8th, you have some ET left on the table. You have to work on the front half of the pass more. I'm thinking you should hit 86mph in the 1/8th. Look at the thread with the timeslips for inspiration.

I don't race stick much but I always think it's better to spin a little than bog.

molsonbrador 08-23-2012 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fraxum (Post 5480353)
Thanks! I went back again last night, but even though I stayed to the end I got only four passes. :(

MY shifting rhythm and 60 foot were both off from my last time. However my ETs stayed about the same (13.3-13-8) and the shift into 4th cost me 2 MPH @ 108. The air was better and the temps were in the 70s. I also ditched my spare tire and the crap in my trunk. All in all I was disappointed in me. MY only improvement was in my RTs which were .5 or less. Still room to improve there. 3rd yellow. 3rd yellow. 3rd yellow.

I plan to go to the T&T Friday night and work on my launch. I was thinking I would try the Launch Control to become more consistent. Then once I have the rest worked out come back and work on a clean manual launch. However after reading more about it I think not.

Are you still going tomorrow?

Fraxum 08-24-2012 11:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by molsonbrador (Post 5482487)
Are you still going tomorrow?

Oops, didn't see this and yes I did. I plan to go again even after this Sunday, I am hooked. It is so cool even just hanging out in the lanes.

I provided some comic relief Tuesday night when I staged with my rear tires. Doh! I was fooling around tuning the radio to the Atco band and passed the lights. So the next tires that staged were my rears. The announcer did not think I deserved such a big advantage over the old Mustang and told me so. He was right it really wasn't a race.

It started out very disappointing with big wait times. But around 9:30 things opened up and I was able to make runs without the long wait.

One thing I did different about then was get up to the front of the street lanes. What a difference! There must have been much less water at the tree and some good rubber from the track cars. My launches were so much cleaner although still hovering around 2.1.

Also I am no longer thinking so much when driving the quarter. It's starting to just flow. My last three runs were all around 13 flat with my first 12 second run. Just barely at 12.999 but I will take it!

I sill need to work on my launch and my shift points. With my mods there must be at least another half second in the car. I am car 3101 below.

http://www.stutzbach.com/camaro/atco002.jpg

Fraxum 08-24-2012 11:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pro Stock John (Post 5480388)
I'm not a stick guy but I grew up in South Jersey (Mays Landing, Absecon.

Based on your just shy of running 84mph in the 1/8th, you have some ET left on the table. You have to work on the front half of the pass more. I'm thinking you should hit 86mph in the 1/8th. Look at the thread with the timeslips for inspiration.

I don't race stick much but I always think it's better to spin a little than bog.

I was hitting the 86 in 1/8th by the end of tonight. See above. Yes and I was spinning a little at the launch. I am revving a bit higher, 3000? and really slipping the clutch at the lights. Thanks for the advice.

My family is from Egg Harbor/Mullica. I love that river.

Fraxum 09-03-2012 11:56 AM

The results are in. Over the course of my practice T&Ts and Camaro vs. Mustang day at the track I lost to two Mustangs so far. One, a much better driven Fox Body with Streets and a 2013 GT500. All of the other Mustangs were pre Coyote versions. I am not saying there were not other faster Mustangs present, but none lined up with me.

I had a shot with the GT500 as this was his first day with the car at the track. He ran a 12.85 (at 120 mph!) to my 15.3. I started out in second. Doh. Nerves I guess. But justice was served. Looking forward to running a 5.0.

Thanks for the help. I will keep going back. A night of fun for $15 is too hard to resist. And if I do not break anything it is cheaper then going to see a movie. As if there is anything worth seeing anyway.

I want to try Autocross next.

Rock36 09-03-2012 03:00 PM

Are you still shifting into 4th or did you decide to stick with hitting the limiter? I guess I should have asked how close to the end you are hitting the limiter.

When the Shift to 4th cost you 2 mph did you experiment with different rpms for the 3-4 shift?

Good job bringing those times down. You are actually out there racing instead of only talking about it and speculating.

EDIT: I went back and looked at your first slip. You've picked up over .1 second by the 330' mark and about .2 sec and 3 mph by the 1/8th. In these cases your 60' time has stayed almost the same.... 2.167 vs. 2.120 and 2.157.

I'm thinking that your improvements are from improved shifting in general. By the time you cross the 1/8th mile mark you've already done the 1-2 and 2-3 shifts, given that your 60' hasn't changed much, those two shifts are where you stand to pick up time. But it does seem your 60's are now consistently 2.1X so that is still improvement as well.

It goes without saying that a lot happens in that first 1/8th mile. The back half is usually just keeping the throttle down and the car straight, all the major work is done by the time you reach the 1/8th...and even if you do have to shift on the back end, the 3-4 shift is by far the easiest.

Fraxum 09-03-2012 07:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rock36 (Post 5528587)
Are you still shifting into 4th or did you decide to stick with hitting the limiter? I guess I should have asked how close to the end you are hitting the limiter.

When the Shift to 4th cost you 2 mph did you experiment with different rpms for the 3-4 shift?

Good job bringing those times down. You are actually out there racing instead of only talking about it and speculating.

EDIT: I went back and looked at your first slip. You've picked up over .1 second by the 330' mark and about .2 sec and 3 mph by the 1/8th. In these cases your 60' time has stayed almost the same.... 2.167 vs. 2.120 and 2.157.

I'm thinking that your improvements are from improved shifting in general. By the time you cross the 1/8th mile mark you've already done the 1-2 and 2-3 shifts, given that your 60' hasn't changed much, those two shifts are where you stand to pick up time. But it does seem your 60's are now consistently 2.1X so that is still improvement as well.

It goes without saying that a lot happens in that first 1/8th mile. The back half is usually just keeping the throttle down and the car straight, all the major work is done by the time you reach the 1/8th...and even if you do have to shift on the back end, the 3-4 shift is by far the easiest.

My highest MPH 111, was a shift to 4th. I am trying to shift into 4th at 6K but the tach on the HUD is hard to read with the blocky numbers at over 100 mph.

If I stay in third I hit the limiter way before the win light comes on. I might have a better ET if I can judge backing off at 6,500 rather than hitting the limiter. Hitting the limiter almost seems to put the brakes on. At Atco I am told seeing the light is the only way to tell you have passed the traps.

I want to go back and work on my 60 foot, RT, and that last shift. In that better fall DA I hope to be running consistent 12s. Very few bolton fifth gens are running in the 12s at Atco that i have seen so far. But then I have only been there a few times.

Fraxum 12-06-2012 03:56 PM

Still Trying
 
Still at this.

I have been to the track a few time after my first run in the 12s. That stood as my best until last Friday, Nov. 30th. I was still cutting a 2.1 60 foot but my RT is improving. One time I almost had a perfect light, but red-lighted by .005.

Last Friday the temps were in the 40s to 50s. Good air!

My C5 was much faster and much harder to be consistent. I knew it would be a little cold so I left my spare setup in the trunk, filled up with 93, and lowered my rear TP to below 30 pounds.

As a result I ran 3 runs in the 12s and my MPH is getting close to 113: (I am #28)

http://www.stutzbach.com/pics/atco-11-30-2012.jpg

But still, to me this improvement does not seem like much and was a gift from the air. I will say it was harder to get a good run. Launching was tough and I could not power shift into second without getting a little sideways. One time I let the car cool down for about 30 minutes and then found out how strong a bolton LS3 can be. My first run was a mess, with about a 2.5 60 foot and having to let off a bit after shifting into second. My second run was the 12.866 @ 112.86. In that run I eased more into second and then focused on the next 2 shifts.

As far as Mustangs go it was a mixed night. A old Fox body ran a 12 flat to my 13.0. A mean sounding early 2000s vert ate my dust. But I finally ran into a new '13 5.0 M6. To be fair to the Mustang, it was stock and not fully broken in. The first time I ran him I beat him off the lights and was puling away when I missed third. But I recovered and almost ran him down. Our second run he caught me sleeping but then I put together a good run and ran him down after being 5 or more cars behind. And to be even more fair to Mustangs there was a completely stock '13 5.0 automatic that running 12.5 to 12.6s at over 113. I did not get a chance to run him, but we know how that would have turned out.

So I still have .2 more seconds left at the 60 foot if I can get better. My second problem is my inconsistent shifting. I wonder if a shift light would help? I think there is another .2 or .3 there. i plan to resume my quest in the spring. I am setting my sights on that automatic 5.0. I hope he doesn't mod.

One other thing, even though my suspension is well modded, I still have wheelhop on some launches. Would a non-stock wheel alignment help?

Future plans:

lighter 1LE replica wheels
1lE 3.91 gears and axles (what a deal!)

Then maybe some DRs.

Is a new intake a bolton?

Fraxum 06-11-2013 10:07 PM

http://www.stutzbach.com/pics/atco-6-10-13.jpg

Still trying and have slightly improved my best.

Tonight though I ran against a Fox body convertible Mustang with a similar power to weight ratio that left me for dead. See that run on the left. I am car 454. (nice number) This run makes clear my problem. We both had about the same RT. Then he beat my 60 foot by .154 seconds. Then by the 330 foot i was losing more ground and behind by .322 seconds. After that I came closer to holding my own although he is still pulling me a little.

Besides my crappy 60', I must either be spinning more through first gear and maybe even on the shift to second. On the street the traction control light is on through most of first gear. I wander also if i am short shifting first a bit. Second comes so fast. I made probably 50 or more runs tying to improve my times and 12.8x @ 112-113 is the best I can do. I did improve slightly by replacing my big front sway bar with the stock one.

So without more tire I think I am stuck.

But on a brigher note my corrected best time car #0806 on the left slip:
Stock and Mildly Modified Naturally Aspirated Engines
12.627 @ 113.844 MPH

Fraxum 06-16-2013 03:43 PM

My best 60' times so far. So close to the fast list. But my 1/4 times are horrible. Right now I am in the middle of returning my car to stock. I will see what I run once I remove the LTs. I bet my times will not change much as i might be able to launch better. But mph will be down.


blufin 06-16-2013 08:12 PM

Why is the car going back to stock?


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