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-   -   Before you build it GM, Dont make the same mistake twice... (http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=291)

302 Wild Mouse 10-25-2006 09:18 AM

Before you build it GM, Dont make the same mistake twice...
 
If you build us another Camaro, I will not buy the car if you dont offer a solid rear axle .

Currently own a 2004 GTO and I will never buy another "muscle car" with independent rear suspension. Bad wheel hop, and NO whole shot!! Radically stiff rear shocks on the GTO are lousy for driving. The poor independent suspension makes the car ride like a go-cart in the rear. The stiff shocks were obviously the attempt to reduce the bad wheel hop - but it doesnt work. It only rides hard.

MY 69 Z was THE car. We all buy these cars to do a little "DragRacing" and at the track the Goat wont hook-up.

Go back to the old style of building a car. Let us choose what options we want so all the cars have their "special" look or options.

When I "ordered" my 69. It was was one of a few that had "deleted" options. I ordered the car with the "front air dam" deleted and the "rear spoiler" deleted. Ordered 410 gears, Vinyl Roof, upgraded interior, delete guages. I never seen another one like it.

If GM is planning on only building 100,000 of these they better make it so we can order one that is as special now, as it was then. IN 69 I recall there were almost 480,000 built. Then they killed the car by running a new ugly body style, and called it a 70 and a half! It was the EDSEL of the 70's.

Build two versions. One with a performance package "solid axle rear end differential" and the other junk independent rear suspension. Otherwise I'll be one of the first generation Z owners, that won't buy the new model.

I leased the GTO with the intention of buying it, if I liked it. I don't, so I will turn it in next year in Oct 2007.

I Will BUY a new Z IF the suspension is right. But if its the same as the GTO. Not interested!!!

Learn from your mistakes GM. Don't take this YOUNG generation for granted by building a car that can't be drag-raced on weekends! Otherwise you will end up with every one you build with poor resale value, just like the overpriced GTO's! AND the Camaro will die again!

GIVE us who know better - what we want! We dont buy cars in AMERICA with big horsepower to ride to church! On SUNDAYS were on our way to the TRACK!

Get it?

Moose 10-25-2006 11:19 AM

Well, don't plan on seeing a solid rear axle on the new Camaro. ;) It's pretty certain that it'll have an independent rear, about 99.9%.

As for an under selling Camaro, I doubt that will happen. A big reason for the GTO's demise was the styling, or lack there of. Yes, it performed well, and the interior was very well executed, but people couldn't get past the exterior.

Based on reactions from people seeing the concept, GM has a BIG hit on their hands. For those who want to drag race their Camaro's, I'd bet there will be aftermarket companies offering all the necessary hardware.

Casull 10-25-2006 12:32 PM

I agree that you will not see the solid rear axel on the camaro at all. The costs associated with designing another camaro with a solid rear axle would probably too high to justify the low demand for this option. They would essentially have to completely re-engineer the rear for this. Not to mention the platform that the Camaro will be built around may or may not even allow for a solid axle.

Who knows, maybe the new platform will work well with the IRS and will not have the same problems that were prevelant in the GTO

302 Wild Mouse 10-25-2006 02:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moose (Post 2533)
Well, don't plan on seeing a solid rear axle on the new Camaro. ;) It's pretty certain that it'll have an independent rear, about 99.9%.

As for an under selling Camaro, I doubt that will happen. A big reason for the GTO's demise was the styling, or lack there of. Yes, it performed well, and the interior was very well executed, but people couldn't get past the exterior.

Based on reactions from people seeing the concept, GM has a BIG hit on their hands. For those who want to drag race their Camaro's, I'd bet there will be aftermarket companies offering all the necessary hardware.


Interior is nice but head room is bad. Pedal postions are bad. Unless youve owned both... you cant under stand.

As far as aftermarket companies having traction cures... forget it. There is nothing good available for GTO'S. Dont count on it for Camaros.

Casull 10-25-2006 02:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 302 Wild Mouse (Post 2535)
Interior is nice but head room is bad. Pedal postions are bad. Unless youve owned both... you cant under stand.

As far as aftermarket companies having traction cures... forget it. There is nothing good available for GTO'S. Dont count on it for Camaros.

I don't think that is necessarily true.... aftermarket companies are going to go where the money is. The GTOs did not sell in large numbers, so it just wouldn't make sense for them to spend the money developing them.

The Camaro will inevitably sell 100,000+ per year therefore there will be a much larger customer base for the aftermarket companies and thus a much greater propensity for profit.

TAG UR IT 10-25-2006 02:48 PM

1. More than one person here has heard they are working on the headroom.
2. Pedal postions being bad? First I've heard of it. Moose, you sat in it. How was the pedal position?
3. I guarantee you aftermarket companies will have a cure for wheel hop. How can I put this... You're talking about the 5th Gen Camaro, not a redesigned foreign car. There's nothing good for GTO's for a reason. I'm not saying they are crappy. I like the design, but have even heard a GM employee say, "What the hell were they thinking when they called it a GTO???" GTO's never caught on because it wasn't a GTO...It was a rebadged car. GM already has numerous companies knocking at their doors begging to be an aftermarket company on the 5th Gen. Do you really think that this could be a potential problem GM hasn't thought about? I'm not worried about it. And, I don't know about others, but I'm not going to spinning my tires so much that I have to buy new treads every 6 months. I'll take the IRS in a heartbeat.

Moose 10-25-2006 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TAG UR IT (Post 2540)
Moose, you sat in it. How was the pedal position?

Pedal position in the concept not an issue, nor was the headroom. You would think headroom would be from the looks of it, but I'm 5'11" and fit just fine. Also, Scott, who is about 6' if not taller, was sitting in it and he seemed OK too. :iono:

TAG UR IT 10-25-2006 02:57 PM

Good deal. I've seen him sit in it and it looks like there's plent of room. He's about my height, maybe an inch shorter. So, that doesn't appear to be a problem then!

KILLER74Z28 10-25-2006 03:24 PM

What is it they say, oh yeah, “Opinions are like @$$ holes everyone has one"… I have never witnessed so much leaping before learning…:bs:

Casull 10-25-2006 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KILLER74Z28 (Post 2544)
What is it they say, oh yeah, “Opinions are like @$$ holes everyone has one"… I have never witnessed so much leaping before learning…:bs:

Man, you are all about criticizing peoples posts today....... :thumbdown:

KILLER74Z28 10-25-2006 07:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Casull (Post 2553)
Man, you are all about criticizing peoples posts today....... :thumbdown:

I’m sorry Cas, I must have put my “Negative Nancy” pants on today.:cry: I was not criticizing this thread, all I am saying is, everyone has an opinion and there are a lot of people screaming “I won’t buy it if” when there is not even a production Camaro with test data. No one knows what the performance numbers are going to be so in "my opinion", I would say it is pretty close-minded to be screaming “I won't buy it if” this early in the game.

camaro2009 10-25-2006 07:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KILLER74Z28 (Post 2558)
I’m sorry Cas, I must have put my “Negative Nancy” pants on today.:cry: I was not criticizing this thread, all I am saying is, everyone has an opinion and there are a lot of people screaming “I won’t buy it if” when there is not even a production Camaro with test data. No one knows what the performance numbers are going to be so in "my opinion", I would say it is pretty close-minded to be screaming “I won't buy it if” this early in the game.

I would have to agree with you here, until I see some concrete performance specs on paper from a proven testing ground with the "production model" Camaro, I wont get my panties in a wad either.:clap: But I do appreciate the opinions about the GTO they actually tend to make me want to think twice before getting one for my wife. I really like that 6.0 400HP # on the window sticker, my dealer here is having a big sale starting the 26th of October, and was seriously gonna give it a hard look, now I will know exactly what to look for. thanks for sharing.:bonk:

alleykt123 10-25-2006 08:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moose (Post 2533)
A big reason for the GTO's demise was the styling, or lack there of. Yes, it performed well, and the interior was very well executed, but people couldn't get past the exterior.

True enough about the exterior, but I didn't buy mine based on looks (and since I spend my time IN the car, the interior works well for me). I ordered a GTO based on a test drive performed at an AutoShow in Motion event. The way I was able to thrash it around the course told me that this vehicle would be what I wanted to drive in the local twisties.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TAG UR IT (Post 2540)
I like the design, but have even heard a GM employee say, "What the hell were they thinking when they called it a GTO???" GTO's never caught on because it wasn't a GTO...It was a rebadged car.

Yes - it was a rebadged Holden Monaro, and I'm more than happy to point this out to anyone who doesn't know that the GTO is an Australian import (it says inside the driver's door "MFD BY HOLDEN LTD"). I've always been a bow-tie girl and not a fan of Pontiac, so the fact that it was rebadged, redesigned Holden was another selling point for me. (Wouldn't it be cool if GM could bring the Ute design back as the El Camino? :D )

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moose (Post 2541)
You would think headroom would be [poor] from the looks of it, but I'm 5'11" and fit just fine. Also, Scott, who is about 6' if not taller, was sitting in it and he seemed OK too. :iono:

I'm glad to hear about this - I'm 5'10" and hate the idea of having my head too close to the roof.

Geez - I can't wait for this car to be built!!! :drool:

http://img417.imageshack.us/img417/6...014007l9ma.jpg

z28camaro2471 10-25-2006 10:05 PM

The Vette has an IRS....z06....505hp...no problems!! Granted it's not the same setup...but I'm sure the new Camaro will be just fine.

TAG UR IT 10-26-2006 01:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by z28camaro2471 (Post 2567)
The Vette has an IRS....z06....505hp...no problems!! Granted it's not the same setup...but I'm sure the new Camaro will be just fine.

Yep. This is exactly what I'm talking about. They can build it to last. GM isn't going to put a crap rear end back into a car that is estimated to sell this much. I can't wait for the IRS. It will work and wheel hop will be minimized.

Moose 10-26-2006 09:48 AM

302 Wild Mouse,

The new Camaro will have an IRS. Visit www.chevrolet.com. Under 'Performance' vehicles you will see the concept. Under 'Specifications' it lists an IRS. :thumbsup:

fierocamaro 10-28-2006 08:10 AM

302 Wild Mouse is right, I think Chevy should let us custom order ours so we can have it hwever we want it, not just whatever is on the lot

Casull 10-28-2006 11:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fierocamaro (Post 2648)
302 Wild Mouse is right, I think Chevy should let us custom order ours so we can have it hwever we want it, not just whatever is on the lot

Last I checked, you can custom order a vehicle from any dealer. I have never been stuck buying just what is on the lot.

In terms of making a solid rear axle an option, I can't believe so many people are already complaining about the IRS when absolutely no one has had a chance to see how it feels. The GTO is hardly an example as the Camaro is being build on a chassis that has never been used.

Not to mention, do you know how much money it would cost GM to redesign this car to work on a solid rear axle? The engineering costs, the tooling costs, and the lost production line capacity. The only people who would buy a solid rear axle anyway are hardcore enthusiests who actually intend to race their car. I hate to tell you but that is a very very small number of people that would have to absorb all of those added costs, or they would have to jack up the price of the IRS Camaros to recoup that money and that is just stupid if they are trying to minimize costs and compete. The solid rear axle as an option is just not a feasible option, it has to be one or the other, and don't be so quick to judge the capabilities of the IRS until someone has had a chance to drive on it!

TAG UR IT 10-28-2006 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Casull (Post 2652)
In terms of making a solid rear axle an option, I can't believe so many people are already complaining about the IRS when absolutely no one has had a chance to see how it feels.

Not to mention, do you know how much money it would cost GM to redesign this car to work on a solid rear axle? The engineering costs, the tooling costs, and the lost production line capacity. The only people who would buy a solid rear axle anyway are hardcore enthusiests who actually intend to race their car. I hate to tell you but that is a very very small number of people that would have to absorb all of those added costs, or they would have to jack up the price of the IRS Camaros to recoup that money and that is just stupid if they are trying to minimize costs and compete. The solid rear axle as an option is just not a feasible option, it has to be one or the other, and don't be so quick to judge the capabilities of the IRS until someone has had a chance to drive on it!

Finally someone hit the nail on the head. That's exactly how I feel. The Vette has a very nice IRS set up and we don't hear about them breaking now do we??? GM won't put out a vehicle that has a crappy rear end that has horrible wheel hop when we punch it. Do you have any idea just how many complaints GM would have if that was the case??? The technology is there. DO NOT WORRY ABOUT IT. The everyday ride around town and the occasional day at the track will be just fine. Have faith, my friends!

FTI-EDC 10-31-2006 08:21 AM

The wheel hop is totally removable in the GTO, if you know what to do. My naturally aspirated LS1 2004 runs 11.70/80s at 115 with 1.62 sixty footers. NO WHEEL HOP...
:burnrubber:
I don't care "what" GM comes out, just BRING IT! Innovative hot rodders will rework and build up whatever they need to make the car work better...
:drinking:
Cripe, we have a Cobra 8.8 IRS center section conversion going into the GTO so I can run some serious gear in back. I'll bet a "version" of this conversion could be retrofitted into the 2008 Camaro IRS too...

Ed

Moose 10-31-2006 08:54 AM

Hey Ed!

I was checking out your site...:thumbsup: I like what you've done to the Goat.

LowRider 10-31-2006 09:08 AM

idk but whatever GM brrings out. Be ready for it because it will be a bad ass car.

Casull 10-31-2006 09:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LowRider (Post 2694)
idk but whatever GM brrings out. Be ready for it because it will be a bad ass car.

I agree, I truely believe that GM is going to pull out all of the stops on this car. I think that given the direction of the American auto manufacturers and all of their recent troubles that this car is going to be more than just a car. It is going to be a statement about the status of GM, their dedication to innovation and quality, and an overall symbol of their health as an organization. I think that in this era of motor-city, GM can not afford anything less - especially since they are coming to the party 3-4 years later than Ford's Mustang.

I would be willing to bet big money that when this thing is unveiled at the '08 NAIAS we will all be shocked and amazed at what GM has come up with.


EDIT: I just wish that I could have it in my driveway yesterday!

LowRider 10-31-2006 11:29 AM

Casull I can't agree more with you. I strongly beileve that you and me and all others think that GM will bring out a nice ride that everyone will appreciate.

FTI-EDC 11-06-2006 07:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moose (Post 2690)
Hey Ed!

I was checking out your site...:thumbsup: I like what you've done to the Goat.

Thanks Moose ... did a bit more to be able to knock down some 11.70's but the whole building a "new shop" blues curtains any new stuff... Besides.... I'm saving for my Gen5.. :D

Ed


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