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-   -   IPF-SC-LLT36V6 .... First Installation in Europe/Germany (http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=295042)

ASH@IPF-TUNING 05-12-2013 04:38 PM

IPF-SC-LLT36V6 .... First Installation in Europe/Germany
 
6 Attachment(s)
Hi everybody ...

one of our german cooperation Partners installed the first LLT IPF Tuning SC kit last month and we did the final dyno testing last week :

Car was running 1000km with the sc kit .. .all readiness codes set ... no error codes appeared ... Adaptation below +3% Fuel 98-102Okt

Greets ASH@IPF-TUNING

KaBoom1701 05-12-2013 05:36 PM

That's awesome!

Congrats!

Nutbutt 05-12-2013 05:43 PM

Permagrin in Germany :happyanim:

Ventmaster 05-12-2013 05:44 PM

OK- can someone "dumb that down" for me and convert to HP and torque!

:facepalm:

ASH@IPF-TUNING 05-12-2013 05:53 PM

Hi !

For everbody to explain : gearbox is AT

RWP ... 298kW / 405PS

DRIVE_LOSS ... 32kW / 40PS at Speed 255km/h

flywheel power = 330kW / 448 PS !

flywheel TRQ : 565 Nm = 390 LbFt

correction factor EU DIN 0.994 !

448 PS X 0.994 = 445 PS on the dyno sheet !

Greets ASH@IPF-TUNING

Ventmaster 05-12-2013 06:37 PM

Very impressive! Thank-you.

KMPrenger 05-12-2013 07:15 PM

So just over 400rwhp. Very nice!

I'm guessing that 390HP is at the engine, and not rear wheel torque?

Those rims look very big and heavy, and so I'm surprised it was able to make that much power on the dyno.

Thanks for sharing!

hunterv6 05-12-2013 07:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ventmaster (Post 6535578)
Very impressive! Thank-you.

+1


Sent from my iPad2 on space mountain

IBM camaro 05-12-2013 08:38 PM

Amazing job guys Arno is great!

ASH@IPF-TUNING 05-13-2013 06:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KMPrenger (Post 6535686)
So just over 400rwhp. Very nice!

I'm guessing that 390HP is at the engine, and not rear wheel torque?

Those rims look very big and heavy, and so I'm surprised it was able to make that much power on the dyno.

Thanks for sharing!

Hi !

The TRQ is FLYWHEEL Torque 390 LbFt / 565 Nm !

Our singel Drum TAT Dyno System dont care RIM weight or size .... we are doing a positive power dynorun until REDLINE and direct on the fly a dynorollout to measure the negative gearbox ... wheel and transloss power...

So with diffrent gears and rims the positive power at the wheels is diffrent .. but the power loss measurement afterwarts is doing its Job and the FLYWHEEL values are ALL same .. if you use 18" or 22"" rims .. if you are using gear 3 4 5 .. all diffrent WHEELPOWER ... but SAME Flywheel power and flywheel TRQ !

to measure ONLY the Wheel power / torque is nothing to compare diffrent cars on diffrent dynos ... toooo much Variation in the used gear and rims !

Greets ASH@IPF-TUNING

Vgav1221 05-13-2013 02:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ASH@IPF-TUNING (Post 6537201)
Hi !

The TRQ is FLYWHEEL Torque 390 LbFt / 565 Nm !

Our singel Drum TAT Dyno System dont care RIM weight or size .... we are doing a positive power dynorun until REDLINE and direct on the fly a dynorollout to measure the negative gearbox ... wheel and transloss power...

So with diffrent gears and rims the positive power at the wheels is diffrent .. but the power loss measurement afterwarts is doing its Job and the FLYWHEEL values are ALL same .. if you use 18" or 22"" rims .. if you are using gear 3 4 5 .. all diffrent WHEELPOWER ... but SAME Flywheel power and flywheel TRQ !

to measure ONLY the Wheel power / torque is nothing to compare diffrent cars on diffrent dynos ... toooo much Variation in the used gear and rims !

Greets ASH@IPF-TUNING

But thats not power to the floor then.

I know all i care about is how much power and torque my car puts to the floor.

Isnt the point to getting us to buy this kit is to show how much power were getting to the ground.

KMPrenger 05-13-2013 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vgav1221 (Post 6538820)
But thats not power to the floor then.

I know all i care about is how much power and torque my car puts to the floor.

Isnt the point to getting us to buy this kit is to show how much power were getting to the ground.

I don't think that is the point.

First off, he does say how much HP is being put to the ground...which is just over 400. Just not the torque.

Honestly, it shouldn't matter how the power is measured, whether at the flywheel or at the rear wheels. We all have a good idea how much power is robbed through the drivetrain, so its easy to figure out.

Also, you have to remember that your wheel and tire setup will affect the rear wheel output, along with the type of dyno you are on.

So to me...makes no difference. We have plenty of IPF threads here showing anywhere from 380 - 400+ horsepower at the wheels. No reason to think this would be any different.

ASH@IPF-TUNING 05-13-2013 05:58 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Hi everybody ...

Someone asked about the power to the ground ?? Good question ... many awnsers !

as MY next question would be ... what gear you like to know ... because the RWP is gear dependent ... so lets see that calculation :

the camaros drivetrain ( gearbox & wheels ) LOSS is vehicle Speed and lubrication oil in the drivetrain parts dependent ..

When you do 2 measurement after a 5 min constant 50 mph rolling on the dyno to we declare tire temp and gear lubrication temp is same in 2 runs .. then only the each other we declare the drivetrain loss is only dependent from vehicle Speed like shown in this diagram :

as you see ... in 1rst gear we are getting Maximum RWP with 429 RWP because of less drivetrain loss in the 1rst gear ... against 405 RWP in gear nr. 4 !!!!

all higher gears are causing higher drivetrain loss .. also lower RWP ... BUT CONSTANT FLYWHEELPOWER !!!

so .. the only way to do accurate dyno testing is to do the positive dyno run and after that measure the drivetrainloss to get the REAL Flywheelpower !

Anything else is not be able to compare between diffrent dynos !

Because ... i can run the car stock in 4 gear .. with a much higher drivetrain loss and the Tuning i measure in 3 gear ... so the Tuning will Show much more power because of less drivetrain loss !

When you do the flywheel calculation Methode ... the lower drivetrainloss in 3rd gear will be complete compensated and the REAL power Differenz is shown !

greets ASH@IPF-TUNING

KMPrenger 05-13-2013 10:42 PM

Hi Arno,

I would expect the loss due to the drivetrain to be MUCH greater than just 40HP. In fact, in almost every dyno we have seen on this site for the V6, the drivetrain loss for an automatic V6 is usually 20% or higher. I believe it is about 21% loss.

So using that estimate, if the car is truly making 405HP in 4th gear on the dyno, that would mean the car is really making about 500+ HP at the crank.

ASH@IPF-TUNING 05-14-2013 04:57 AM

Hi everybody !

Keith ... please Show me only 1 Diagramm where the drivetrainloss is REALLY measured and 20%+ from the wheelpower ... that is only possible when an eddicurrent retarder break was used and not corrected in the System !!

We have also an eddicurrent break retarder in our dyno ... but the very heavy drum at the medium power of the camaro dont Need any more load for propper reading ... for a 1000PS+ Turbo car we Need the retarder break to get propper boost Levels and to expand the measuring time .. !

the measured camaro had 405 PS at the wheels at 254km/h and 40PS complete drivetrain and gearbox and tire loss .. so together 445PS at the flywheel ... NOT MORE !! Anything else is a lie in the own pocket and only good at bar talks with lots of beer !! :fighting0056:

small twin dyno rollers can cause a very big surge loss at the wheels , but then the wheel power is also low ! :pout:

in this case the gearbox cooler must have nearly the size of the engine cooler to get rid of the heat ! :frusty:

one vehicle that i know with such a big loss was possibly the sherman tank in WWII! :focus:

greets ASH@IPF-TUNING

KMPrenger 05-14-2013 12:45 PM

Hello Arno,

First off I just want to say I'm not trying to argue of course...I know your a good guy and great at what you do!

I am just confused about the drivetrain loss figures.

Please take a look at this thread. It is a sticky thread which lists dyno numbers for V6s (stock and modified) on this website.

For this purpose, please look at the stock chart.

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=153186

Now I can't show you a dyno reading of power at the flywheel, as I have never seen one before. But if you notice, every one of these cars is showing around 18% or greater loss at the wheels if you assume stock has 312 HP (which is what it is advertised to be for 2010 and 2011 models) So unless the car actually does not make 312 HP at the flywheel, OR every single dyno is reading lower than actual output (doubtful), I don't see how the drivetrain loss (which to me includes the transmission, driveshaft, rear axle, wheels,tires, etc.) can be less than what the chart is showing.

Again, not trying to argue. Just showing you what we are used to seeing here. It has been said that as a rule of thumb, manuals tend to show 15% loss and autos tend to show 20%.

So are you saying that much of the loss shown on these graphs is due to the dyno rollers themselves, and NOT because of drivetrain loss??

dertobi 05-14-2013 04:22 PM

Hi guys, just to let you know, I am Arno's second engineer @EDS...


Quote:

Originally Posted by KMPrenger
Just showing you what we are used to seeing here. It has been said that as a rule of thumb, manuals tend to show 15% loss and autos tend to show 20%.

Correct, it is a rule of thumb...nothing less or more... pub science in my eyes...that's what it is.

if you want to have a proper measurement, you cannot estimate half of it, and than state that the result is correct...thats complete guessing nothing else.

but that is the mayor problem with your dyno charst in the US, you cannot compare them and in every gear you will see different results.
the only thing you can use this measuring for, is the compare one single cars gains (e.g. for the benefit of a tuning), when you look at the difference between before and after


what leads to your next question:

Quote:

Originally Posted by KMPrenger
So are you saying that much of the loss shown on these graphs is due to the dyno rollers themselves, and NOT because of drivetrain loss??

No it is NOT, with different rollers you would see a different drivetrain loss value, but also different wheel power, because the flywheel power is always the same.

if the drivetrain loss is higher, the wheelpower would be lower and vice versa... it is an easy equation:

Flywheel_pwr = Wheel_pwr + loss

[edit]: and: loss = cars secific drivetrain loss + "roller loss"(most friction)

so its easy to see what has to happen when the left side is always constant , and the values from the right side differ

hope U understand what we want to say

best regards

Tobi

ASH@IPF-TUNING 05-14-2013 05:17 PM

7 Attachment(s)
Hi !

i can tell you about our Dynojet Story that we bought for our EDS Tuning and Service Center in Shanghai ... :welcome:

January 2013 we spend 4 weeks in Shanghai to set up the new delivered LC224 overground dynojet with Eddi current break retarder ... :respekt:

We asked dynojet for the flywheel-power-testing Option Software from Dynojet and after the Installation we checked some known cars on the dynojet . :paddle:

1) Buick Regal GS 2.0Turbo ... stock 225PS engine power ... dynojet showed 195PS engine power and much too less torque .... :iono:
2) Buick Excelle 1.6Turbo ... stock 180PS engine power .... dynojet showed 160PS engine power ... and much too less torque ...:iono:
3) Buick Regal 2.4NA ... stock 175PS engine power ... dynojet showed 145PS ....:iono:

So we asked for a new software to get accurate dyno numbers and not that Kind of Bingo Game ! :help:

We were connected to the EU Division of dynojet and they send us the EU Version for accurate flywheel power and Trq measurement with 15 sec Extrapolation calculation during the rollout of the negative power loss testing ... and BINGO !!! :welcome:

All stock cars showed STOCK power and TRQ figures as they were confirmed by the GM factory in Shanghai and we did our Job to develop the power Tuning for the Buick Regal 2.0T and Excelle 1.6T Shanghai Motorshow cars ! :thanks:

So .. the end of the Story .... i cant tell you WHY there are sooo many cars with soooo less RWP dyno figures and soooo much drivetrain loss in % ..... :emoticon1:

Only to measure the RWP on a dyno seems to be total Nonsens and you can better spend the money for a RWP-dynorun in the next bar with some nice Girls ! :clap:

A propper flywheel dynorun is also showing the RWP and the complete drivetrainloss ... and together the flywheel power and that seems to be the only way to compare cars , Tuningsystems and enginebuilds !

In my personal opinion every Dyno Owner should ask for the flywheel-option from the dyno manifacturer and test some cars ... then the discussion after some flywheel dynotests will be much smoother then now and MUCH more realistic !! :thanks: for listening

Greets ASH@IPF-TUNING

Ventmaster 05-14-2013 05:39 PM

I'm pretty sure that Buick is not for sale in the US!

Thanks Arno, as always- very instructive and fun to read! :headbang:

ASH@IPF-TUNING 05-14-2013 05:58 PM

Hi !

thanks Keith , you can write something boring ... so nobody reads it ... !! :noidea:

with a Little more fun ... life is more easy ! :sm0:

on the last pic ... i'm the big guy with the red Pullover ... Tobi is the man in the middle and right side you see our Taiwan technitian Mr. LIN ... good guy !

greets ASH@IPF-TUNING

KMPrenger 05-14-2013 06:03 PM

Thanks Tobi and Arno!

Didn't mean to de-rail the thread!

KMPrenger 05-14-2013 06:05 PM

Arno, are you still coming back to the U.S. for more tuning sometime this year? Just curious.

ASH@IPF-TUNING 05-14-2013 06:34 PM

Hi !

Plan is ... Tobi Comes in June/July .. and i will come October to AZ !

Both sessions 3 weeks !

Greets ASH@IPF-TUNING

JohnnyBfromPeoria 05-15-2013 01:33 AM

I would like for you to have a look at my car in October.

John B.

Nutbutt 05-15-2013 12:19 PM

Arno, looks like your have the better of the two dates for the AZ visit.


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