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-   -   Track Day Brakes 1LE (http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=296136)

summit1le 05-17-2013 03:51 PM

Track Day Brakes 1LE
 
I currently have a Camaro 1LE. I plan on using this on about 6 to 10 HPDE per year. I am currently Intermediate Solo. My previous vehicle had a 6 piston/4 piston Big brake Kit. Here is my proposed setup. Tell me what you think. I have been going back and forth about replacing the front calipers with the 6 piston units from the ZL1/CTS-V. Im not sure that is necessary. Tell me what you think??


1.Front 3 inch cooling ducts connected to dust sheild. As others have done on Camaro 5

2.Giro Disc titanium pad sheilds

3.Front DBA 5000 2 Piece Slotted Rotors Hawk HP+ Pads
Rear DBA 4000 Slotted Rotors Hawk HP+ Pads

4. SS Brake Lines.Motul 600 or ATE BLUE? Which do you prefer?

5. Seperate Clutch Reservoir? Necessary?

Will this be sufficient?

Any Suggestions would be appreciated

1LE-pilot 05-17-2013 04:04 PM

Beginner in the autocross but have done many EVOC courses. I threw our 1LE around a course a couple weekends ago. Other than a little extra brake dust from the original pads, there were no problems.

Dropspeed 05-17-2013 05:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1LE-pilot (Post 6556238)
Beginner in the autocross but have done many EVOC courses. I threw our 1LE around a course a couple weekends ago. Other than a little extra brake dust from the original pads, there were no problems.

HPDE and autocross have very different demands on the brakes.

I have te same questions you do as I instruct and the car will be tracked at those events. I decided to see how she performs the first weekend stock and then I will modify it from there.

Pads, fluid and cooling should work wonders. Rotors are not needed. Ti backing plate are expensive for what they do and good fluid can offset the heat transfer.

Honestly it REALLY depends on your driving style (late brake) and the speeds you hit on your tracks.

And I do plan on the 6 pistons CTSV set-up after the piggy bank replenishes a bit as I just picked up the car 2 days ago.

Matt

summit1le 05-17-2013 06:01 PM

80 bux for the back plates seems a cheap gamble. I am a late braker!!! Let my know how it performs stock!!

newb 05-17-2013 07:09 PM

Track Day Brakes 1LE
 
Here is my take on brakes. And this is purely opinion from non-professional with far more track time on 2 wheels than 4.

The Zl1 and CTS-V have "better" brakes than the SS for 2 reasons.

1. The added weight of the supercharged LSA requires it to meet the capability of the lighter SS. The extra weight on the same SS brakes would result in longer stops and faster wear and warping of the rotors. Because of the extra mass they went to two piece rotors to help dissipate the heat generated by the larger calipers.

2. The LSA means the car has higher velocity down straightaways which also leads to the same reasons as above.

So bottom line is I believe the SS brakes are more than enough for the average guy in a 1LE on a track day. A fluid change and SS lines if you want better pedal feel and heat resistance and you should be fine. (Better pads when they are worn but not necessary before). I think the money for brakes could be saved and used for better things like lessons and track time. The driver mod is often the most important mod on any build.


With that being said, the ZL1/CTS-V brakes are better and more capable than the SS stockers. That will reduce braking distances and reduce fade. I just don't think they are necessary to be a good performing car.

One thing I learned from motorcycles is that late braking is great for competitive racing but not always the best for lap times. It will keep you from getting passed or help you dive underneath the guy in front of you. But that usually comes at the expense of corner speed and drive off the corner.

Phdpsy 05-17-2013 07:10 PM

I had Ti speed titanium plates on my BMW 135i. In back to back sessions there was a notable improvement. I just have upgraded fluids, separate resivoir, and Colbalt Friction pads. No issues at all and great consistent braking.

JimE 05-17-2013 07:34 PM

From what I've read here (there are numerous topics in the suspension board...all of which apply here as the 1LE brakes are no different than the SS), the stock brakes are sufficient.

It is recommended to use a race fluid and pads. Also, stainless lines will increase pedal feel.

Dropspeed 05-17-2013 07:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by summit1le (Post 6556615)
80 bux for the back plates seems a cheap gamble. I am a late braker!!! Let my know how it performs stock!!

Ahh those are inexpensive. About 10 years ago I paid about $200+ for some for a set of brembos.

summit1le 05-17-2013 08:11 PM

When modding our cars I'm sure we get a bit carried away. My first Hpde I had an Audi S5 which was great until the second session where I almost slammed into a 911. Take fade seriously. Just so unfamiliar with these cars as they are still extremely heavy. I would rather spend the money in the right places to avoid any incidents

toehead93 05-17-2013 09:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dropspeed (Post 6556586)
And I do plan on the 6 pistons CTSV set-up after the piggy bank replenishes a bit as I just picked up the car 2 days ago.

Matt

I would get the upgrade now personally. I plan on having CTS-V brakes waiting to go my 1LE when I get it so I can offset the cost by selling nearly new stock rotors, pads, and calipers. I figured I can sell them for $600 with under 100 miles and pay under $1300 for the CTS-V kit which I have priced out. This way the upgrade costs me about $700.

So Cal Camaro 05-17-2013 09:44 PM

CTSV front brakes with ZL1 rotors, good lines, Motul600 fluid and Hawk Pads...I view it as insurance, going for your brakes and hitting the floor is not fun...that's why I upgraded before hitting any course with my 1LE....

SPCBA 05-18-2013 01:44 AM

i melted hawk pads...literally melted and chipped them away. track pads, fluid, lines, ducts, racingbrake rotors is a pretty nice setup. lost a bunch of unsprung rotational mass weight and brakes wonderfully. cant stress enough to have track pads....hp+ are street pads and arent equipped for people pushing their car to the limit and passing braking markers on a big track.

ctsv upgrade is actually hotter and heavier. they do have extra pistons tho its a trade off.

summit1le 05-18-2013 06:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SPCBA (Post 6558130)
i melted hawk pads...literally melted and chipped them away. track pads, fluid, lines, ducts, racingbrake rotors is a pretty nice setup. lost a bunch of unsprung rotational mass weight and brakes wonderfully. cant stress enough to have track pads....hp+ are street pads and arent equipped for people pushing their car to the limit and passing braking markers on a big track.

ctsv upgrade is actually hotter and heavier. they do have extra pistons tho its a trade off.

So which pads do you recommend? Keep in mind I will change out when used on the street

Mgizzle 05-18-2013 06:19 AM

Try the stock pads first man. You shouldnt need anything but racing brake fluid and a good alignment. Unless you are schumacher running 10/10ths at the track, 20+ laps, with an ambient of 100F you will be OK. I ran one track event stock pads and racing blie fluid and am going again tomorrow. This way I will know for sure if I need a brake upgrade and so far I dont.

Do not go to lighter rotors, you need the stock thermal mass. If u really want to upgrade get the 6 piston V/ZL1 brakes and rotors and you are set for ever.

Finally, switching pads from track to street can cause a lot of issues with the rotors and the brake pedal feeling bad.

Dr. Evil 05-18-2013 08:16 AM

I dont have a lot of experience with the camaro yet. In my last 2 vettes (a 90 and a 96) during track days a set of SS lines, good pads and fluid were plenty. I realize its a much lighter car but in one instance at Hallett in Oklahoma I got black flagged. I got the brakes so hot the rubber dust boots were on fire. I still never had any fade and was late braking every corner. I was in a heated "dual" with a modded Porche 930 ;)

Lumino1LE 05-18-2013 09:43 AM

I have tracked my 1LE extensively, considering how old it is and how many miles I have on it, and the stock Brembo brakes are great for both HPDE and autocross! You read that right - great. I have tracked my 1LE at Summit Point 2 times this year at HPDE events with no problems with either braking or fading. I did replace the fluid with DOT 4, but no issues.

One of the events I ran at was an instructor's clinic where I ran for 4 hours in one day and no issues. After that 4 hour event, my pads finally wore down and I ended up replacing them with Hawk DTC 60s. But, I also purchased the stock pads again to use on the street - the Hawks were too noisy for the daily use.

BTW, I ordered the replacement OEM pads from GMPartsdirect.com and they are real Brembo pads made in Italy.

Hope my experience helps you decide. You'll do fine and will enjoy the heck out of your car!

Dropspeed 05-18-2013 09:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mgizzle (Post 6558339)
Try the stock pads first man. You shouldnt need anything but racing brake fluid and a good alignment. Unless you are schumacher running 10/10ths at the track, 20+ laps, with an ambient of 100F you will be OK. I ran one track event stock pads and racing blie fluid and am going again tomorrow. This way I will know for sure if I need a brake upgrade and so far I dont.

Do not go to lighter rotors, you need the stock thermal mass. If u really want to upgrade get the 6 piston V/ZL1 brakes and rotors and you are set for ever.

Finally, switching pads from track to street can cause a lot of issues with the rotors and the brake pedal feeling bad.

I agree and this is what I am going to do. 15+ years instructing and racing has taught me that people often throw $ at cars to fix nonexistent issues. I also run at track events for free (I do put my life in the students hands as a trade off) so I have no issues getting a feel for the car and pulling it off the track if there are any suspected problems. NOW big brake upgrades are a great investment, but not always needed

Rotors: I ran a 3400lb car with 4 piston Brembos and always ran stock, thick, heavy, non slotted or drilled rotors for cooling because they worked with no issues. There are lighter and fancier ones but they are not needed.

In regards to the brake fade comment in the S5 above. I was not there and am only commenting based on what you posted, but I will say if you almost hit someone else at an HPDE because of a fade issue you May have been over driving the car at that point in time. Always always always expect the unexpected on a race track and have 3 back up plans to escape any given situation. ( Left, Right, or Stop) and it sounds like you did one of them.

I will report back after next weekend and let everyone know how the car worked on the stock set-up with ATE fluid in it.

So Cal Camaro 05-18-2013 10:03 AM

Make sure you bleed your brakes between events to ensure you have no issues at the track...

Jim968 05-18-2013 11:12 AM

Motul 600 is far superior to ATE.

Hawk HT10's or DTC 60/70's will be MUCH better on the track than the HP pluses, although they're not good for the street. You'll love running a dedicated track pad so much that you won't mind the small extra effort to swap back to a street pad when you get home from the track.

Dropspeed 05-18-2013 12:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim968 (Post 6558897)
Motul 600 is far superior to ATE.
.

Is this based on facts or an opinion?

I have run ATE Super Blue in my last 4 track cars and two race cars with zero fluid issues and without bleeding during a race weekend. I like the super blue as it is easy to see when the stock fluid is run out and the blues fills the lines....when you bleed it a second time you just grab the Yellow and run that through the lines and so on.

I have never used Motul but have heard good things as well...

-Matt

Jim968 05-18-2013 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dropspeed (Post 6559055)
Is this based on facts or an opinion?

Facts. I have extensive experience with both fluids. ATE boils in my race car and Motul RB600 doesn't. The specs prove it out:

ATE dry boiling point 536, wet boiling point 396

Motul RB600 dry boiling point 593, wet boiling point 420

If you're not boiling your ATE you're not trying hard enough :D

CHMSC 05-18-2013 01:55 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Since no one has answered your other question I will.

As far as a remote resivoir, I would suggest doing it since it will keep your brake fluid much cleaner and prevent ABS issues down the road. I put in the tick stainless high flow clutch line, ideal garage high flow master clutch cylinder and JDP's remote resivoir. My clutch problems are gone like the second gear grind and the clutch pedal not wanting to return all the way up after depressing it under high revs. Yes, you can use motul as clutch fluid.

I would also suggest changing the trans fluid. I used GM fluid to keep my warranty but it helped a ton and my shifting is way smother now.

Here is a pic with trans fluid, rear diff fluid and additive part numbers in case you want to do the same.

Dropspeed 05-18-2013 02:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim968 (Post 6559285)
Facts. I have extensive experience with both fluids. ATE boils in my race car and Motul RB600 doesn't. The specs prove it out:

ATE dry boiling point 536, wet boiling point 396

Motul RB600 dry boiling point 593, wet boiling point 420

If you're not boiling your ATE you're not trying hard enough :D

Or I have had sufficient cooling and the proper set-up :)

Yes, both wet and dry boiling points are higher, but only marginally. Without knowing your specs and set-up it doesn't mean you don't have another issue with cooling, brakes size vs weight of the car ect that is causing the fluid to boil. If you are within 60 degree of your boiling point I am willing to bet there is another variable effecting the temps.

What does your race car weight, what is the brake set-up and at what track or tracks?

-Matt

Mgizzle 05-18-2013 03:22 PM

If u dont mind the cost get the motul. Castrol SRF is great too but problem with both is they are hard to find locally and u need three four bottles to bleed entire system. Ate is more readly available and comes in 1 liter cans enough for entire system plus some.

I would highly suggest AGAINST titanium shims. Ti does not transfer heat, which means ur rotor and pad will have to take on more heat. This is not good, entire point of better brake fluid is so u dont have to use ti shims etc and allow a higher heat capacity of ur brake corner.

Finally, the 1LE has a small disc splash shield like the ZL1, ducts will not work with it. If u do go for ducts, dont use the fog lamp cover for air inlet, use the front lower grill portion like the zl1. Day and night in how fast and cool ur air is for rotor cooling.

Jim968 05-18-2013 04:29 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Dropspeed (Post 6559455)
Or I have had sufficient cooling and the proper set-up :)

Yes, both wet and dry boiling points are higher, but only marginally. Without knowing your specs and set-up it doesn't mean you don't have another issue with cooling, brakes size vs weight of the car ect that is causing the fluid to boil. If you are within 60 degree of your boiling point I am willing to bet there is another variable effecting the temps.

What does your race car weight, what is the brake set-up and at what track or tracks?

-Matt

My race car is a Porsche 968. Primary track is Mid Ohio, but I've been all over. Minimum weight with driver ranges from 3,000 to 3,236 depending on which series I'm running. The car has the big brake option, which is Brembos that are roughly the same size as the ones on our Camaros. Cooling is ducted from inlets on the front of the car.

Trust me the car is set up. In it I have 32 class wins, two regional championships and one national championship. Many of my competitors are using Castrol SRF which is the best fluid out there, but ridiculously expensive. The rest of us use Motul. I don't know any serious racer who is still using ATE.

What car(s) are you racing?


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