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-   -   How to get the most out of your Suspension/Brake questions (http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=323811)

TBone 10-18-2013 02:26 PM

How to get the most out of your Suspension/Brake questions
 
I am posting this because I have been lurking through the Suspension/Brake area for the last couple of weeks and have noticed some common things that have been lacking in trying to answer common questions. Most folks just ask their question without the most common of background information needed to answer the question asked. Then responders have to waste time asking for this information while others are giving options/opinions that the OP might already have thus wasting time and space. There are just too many variables that go into even the most basic of questions let alone the more technical ones.

So with this in mind I have come up with what I think is a good format for asking question in this area. I call it the “GMMB” approach.

G= Goals: What are your goals with the car.

M=Model: What model car do you own.

M=Modifications: What are your current modifications.

B=Budget: What is your budget. If you do not have a budget or are looking for the best answer, please state so.

Answering these simple questions in your original post will greatly assist the rest of us in helping you accomplish your goals.

Note to all: if referring to a vendors package setup, Example Pedders Street kit 1, please list what is included in that kit at least once in your OP so the rest of us do not have to search out what is all included in that particular kit. There are just too many for everyone to know all of the vendor’s kits.

Another note: In some discussions it may be necessary to also delve into rim and tire combinations, please bear with us so we can provide the best answer possible.

Vendors, please make your posts relevant. Some of you are very good at this and others not so much. Posts like, “Call me and we can answer your questions”, “that is a good idea” or” That looks good” either wastes space or the reply does not benefit the whole community because the only person getting the information is the OP who calls. Vendors, if you can’t answer the question in the post without benefiting the whole community please refrain from posting. We want the answer to our technical questions, not a sales pitch. If you do that we will know who to buy from. We know you cannot post retail prices in this section so please try and fit your answers into the OP’s budget. If you think the OP’s budget is too small for their goals please also note that without getting yourself in trouble.

Edit: If you are new to the 5th Gen suspension please take the time to educate yourself with this thread all about the Camaro's suspension.
........Start here: The 5th Gen Book Chapter by Chapter

So, in the future look for the “GMMB” acronym in future posts and if someone asks what that means, refer them here.

T.

PS. If you have ideas to streamline this please feel free to share so that we can enhance this to benefit all of us.

ssmike 10-18-2013 06:48 PM

TBone your back!!!! :happy0180: :grouphug: :clap2:

Great idea for this thread! I too have noticed a lot of vague replies from vendors and pretty much the same questions over and over, especially when it comes to wheel hop! Answer.... CRADLE BUSHINGS!!!! Oh, and trailing arms/bushings! There, no need to ask anymore, it's right here!

Welcome back T.

Firefighter 10-18-2013 06:57 PM

Tbone excellent idea. This really applies to almost any performance questions though. I mean the same stuff should be provided when one asks what cam should I get or which heads or headers or intake or the tough one wheels...

JusticePete 10-18-2013 07:52 PM

Great suggest Tim.

TBone 10-29-2013 04:04 PM

Thanks.

T.

JDP Tyler 10-31-2013 03:46 PM

:bump: for a great post! It helps us so much to get a little back ground info for what you are trying to accomplish and what you have already done! Help us help YOU! :thumb:

Best regards,

Tyler
888-308-6007

BLACK10 11-01-2013 10:20 PM

Great thread tbone. Let us know if we can help!

Nick

ssmike 11-02-2013 08:59 AM

This should be a sticky up top so ppl can read it before posting! We'll have to give it a bump once in a while to keep it at the top!

Apex Motorsports 11-02-2013 09:06 AM

Outstanding post. This would be helpful in all of the technical forums.

Dyk-NO 11-02-2013 09:19 AM

Okay I'll start it,

My goal is to achieve an aggressive stance with the capability of Autocross ing once in awhile. I know the ride will be rough but as long as its tolerable for daily driving and it's not going to give me any further issues Im fine with it.

Right now my current mods are Eibach sway bars and Megan racing coilovers I'm planning to get the Pedders bushings after I get my wheel set up figured out. I'm not sure where would I stand on improving the power for my car so yea im doing the suspensions first because i think it's the most cost efficient mod for the car.

TBone 11-26-2013 12:02 PM

bump

T.

TBone 12-12-2013 03:27 PM

Fixed Da Link.

T.

rocketrider807 12-12-2013 11:22 PM

Ill contribute:
Goals: Competitive autocross car (E-prepared)/Fun Track day car

Model: V6 LS

Modifications
: BMR Sway Bars, Lowering Springs, 20x8.5 Front Wheels & 20x10 Rear Wheels

Budget: What ever I scrounge together Monthly...so how about this. WANT list w/time line:
20x10 Front Wheels ~ $600+Tires
Coil Overs (BC will do) ~ $1000
CAI: ~$350
Headers (BBK): $700

The parts are in the order that I would purchase, hope to have the first two by the time autocross season starts, the other two will come when they come :). Considering jamming bushing kits in before the power mods.

TBone 12-13-2013 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rocketrider807 (Post 7258052)
Ill contribute:
Goals: Competitive autocross car (E-prepared)/Fun Track day car

Model: V6 LS

Modifications
: BMR Sway Bars, Lowering Springs, 20x8.5 Front Wheels & 20x10 Rear Wheels

Budget: What ever I scrounge together Monthly...so how about this. WANT list w/time line:
20x10 Front Wheels ~ $600+Tires
Coil Overs (BC will do) ~ $1000
CAI: ~$350
Headers (BBK): $700

The parts are in the order that I would purchase, hope to have the first two by the time autocross season starts, the other two will come when they come :). Considering jamming bushing kits in before the power mods.

My first suggestions would be bushings. BMR, for your power level, would be something to look into and definitely something you would want to do before coilovers.

Speaking of which, I would suggest Pedders over BC just so you do not have to cut a hole in the trunk to adjust them(if you still have to do that). Also you can usually find a decent set used in the classifieds in the spring for a good price. Plus, they are just better IMHO.

Tires, tires, tires. This is subjective and I know I am going to catch some flack for this but "I" like a staggered setup and set my car up accordingly. Now when I say this I mean I set the sway bars, tires, etc. so the handling is more accommodating to this way of driving and car setup. If is works for the vette and ZL1 then it is ok for me. Now, you already have 8.5F and 10R rims. If you are used to these you could stick with this setup and set the car up for staggered and save some money and apply it toward tires. This is NOT for everyone and some do better with the same setup of the 1LE. This is something you will have to figure out on your own.

Tires part 2, Now.... tires are important. The stickier the better but you also have to decide if you are going to DD on these too. My vote is Michelin Pilot Super Sports.

Power, for a CAI my vote is a Halltech YellowJacket but as long as you pick one of the good ones you should be ok. Headers, I would choose one of the top three: Kooks, ARH, Pfadt, and then get them coated to keep heat down under hood. Oh damn, sorry just saw you are V6. I am not really well versed on making power on those so hopefully someone can chime in.

Otherwise good plan so far.

T.

rocketrider807 12-13-2013 10:29 PM

^ Thanks for the input!
I have the michelin pilot super sports up front and some old hankook V12s in the rear right now, I think those will also turn in to the Pilot Suport Sports when it's time, I love those tires so far!

I still like the idea of a square setup. I know part of my understeer problem is ME but I also feel like some extra meat up front will really help me get the car to rotate; not easy to do in those tight auto-x tracks!

You really think Bushings>Coil overs? Any particular reason? What about chassis braces? Feel free to PM if this is getting to be much for the posts :)

TBone 12-14-2013 01:52 PM

1 Attachment(s)
There are a lot of things that can cause understeer. I use a chart like this, I have adjustable sway bars, at the track when I am dialing it in.

Attachment 582857

It helps when your tires are the same brand at all four corners.

I do think bushings before coilovers because you need a solid foundation to build on. Otherwise you will not get the full benefit of the coilovers. If you have someone near you that has bushings try and hitch a ride to see the difference. Night and day.

T.

csorrentini 12-15-2013 03:04 AM

So I'll add mine here too!:

G= Goals: A daily driver that's not swaying left and right like crazy on the highway/road. I have about 412whp 409 wtq atm and getting cams installed in a month or two so it will have some power too.

M=Model: 2010 2SS/RS.

M=Modifications:
22x9 Front Wheels with +30 offset
22x10.5 Rear Wheels with +35 offset
265/35R22XL vredestein Ultrac Sessan Front Tires
315/30R22XL vredestein Ultrac Sessan Rear Tires
Vararam "tuned" air intake
XS Power Long Tubes
3" exhaust x-pipe and mufflers
Magnecore KV8.5 Wires
Self tuned with HP Tuners


B=Budget: debateable, I'd say 3k max but would rather much less considering just a daily not a dragster and such

Thanks much!

Colt 12-15-2013 01:21 PM

I'm looking for some input as well,

So I'll add mine here too!:

Goals: Since this is my daily driver, I can't drop it too much. The main focus is autocross, 1-2 times a month. I'm not really concerned about autocross classes though, just there to enjoy the time.

Model: 2010 1LT/RS

Modifications:
ACS T2 Splitter (Slightly lower, and sticks out further than the Stock SS Bumper)
Apex Washer Bottle Relocator
Apex Air Scoop
Black Ice-Olator
CAI Cold Air Intake
VMAX Ported Throttle Body
BMR Rear End Links
BMR Rear Sway Bar

Budget: I have around $500 to spend on my suspension before autocross starts up this year. I'd also like some ideas on what I should be upgrading after that $500.

My Thoughts: I'm deciding between getting a front sway bar with end links, or some BMR drop springs. Any input on these two options, or other recommendations are appreciated, thanks!

csorrentini 12-18-2013 01:44 PM

Bumps!

ssmike 12-18-2013 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by csorrentini (Post 7262085)
So I'll add mine here too!:

G= Goals: A daily driver that's not swaying left and right like crazy on the highway/road. I have about 412whp 409 wtq atm and getting cams installed in a month or two so it will have some power too.

M=Model: 2010 2SS/RS.

M=Modifications:
22x9 Front Wheels with +30 offset
22x10.5 Rear Wheels with +35 offset
265/35R22XL vredestein Ultrac Sessan Front Tires
315/30R22XL vredestein Ultrac Sessan Rear Tires
Vararam "tuned" air intake
XS Power Long Tubes
3" exhaust x-pipe and mufflers
Magnecore KV8.5 Wires
Self tuned with HP Tuners


B=Budget: debateable, I'd say 3k max but would rather much less considering just a daily not a dragster and such

Thanks much!

With a budget of $3k you can do a lot! Start with subframe (cradle) full bushings, trailing arms with outer bushings, toe links, coilovers lowered no more than 1 1/4", sway bars, and a good aggressive street alignment. If you do all the work yourself you should be in budget. Shop around for deals on parts and get some estimates on labor. With a future cam you should be at around 480 rwhp so all these mods will handle that power no problem, you'll have a more aggressive stance, and better overall handling! The coilovers will not sacrifice nuch in ride quality over drop springs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Colt (Post 7262656)
I'm looking for some input as well,

So I'll add mine here too!:

Goals: Since this is my daily driver, I can't drop it too much. The main focus is autocross, 1-2 times a month. I'm not really concerned about autocross classes though, just there to enjoy the time.

Model: 2010 1LT/RS

Modifications:
ACS T2 Splitter (Slightly lower, and sticks out further than the Stock SS Bumper)
Apex Washer Bottle Relocator
Apex Air Scoop
Black Ice-Olator
CAI Cold Air Intake
VMAX Ported Throttle Body
BMR Rear End Links
BMR Rear Sway Bar

Budget: I have around $500 to spend on my suspension before autocross starts up this year. I'd also like some ideas on what I should be upgrading after that $500.

My Thoughts: I'm deciding between getting a front sway bar with end links, or some BMR drop springs. Any input on these two options, or other recommendations are appreciated, thanks!

If you do the work yourself you should be able to do both springs and front sway. If not you can save some money and just use the stock front endlinks. For autocross you definitely need a lower center of gravity and sway bars to reduce front end lean and understeer. Set the rear bar full hard and play with the front to get the desired balance. Full hard on front = more understeer, full soft on front = more oversteer. With the stock wheels and tires you will probably want full hard rear and full soft front sway settings.

Norm Peterson 12-18-2013 05:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rocketrider807 (Post 7258052)
Ill contribute:
Goals: Competitive autocross car (E-prepared)/Fun Track day car

Model: V6 LS

Modifications
: BMR Sway Bars, Lowering Springs, 20x8.5 Front Wheels & 20x10 Rear Wheels

Budget: What ever I scrounge together Monthly...so how about this. WANT list w/time line:
20x10 Front Wheels ~ $600+Tires
Coil Overs (BC will do) ~ $1000
CAI: ~$350
Headers (BBK): $700

The parts are in the order that I would purchase, hope to have the first two by the time autocross season starts, the other two will come when they come :). Considering jamming bushing kits in before the power mods.

I'm guessing that you mean E-Street Prepared rather than EP. EP is the place for gutted and 10"+ race-slicked Hondas and such that weigh barely half of what your Camaro does.

I'm going to take the other track and recommend the square setup. Mainly it's with autocross in mind, where getting a large heavy car to turn in is more important than being able to add throttle a few feet sooner.

Out on the big track, a square setup is probably less necessary although it (arguably) will allow you to develop as a "momentum driver" - carrying slightly higher midcorner speed and rolling into the throttle more gently than a "point and shoot" style (where a staggered wheel/tire setup compensates somewhat for being more aggressive with the throttle.

For autocross, I'd suggest not running any so-called "race" tunes, as that usually means "drag race" which can be too abrupt for good throttle modulation. IOW, too easy to get wheelspin and tailhappiness as you get into the throttle exiting a turn onto what passes for "straights" at autocross. You do want a tune with any CAI in order to get the most out of the CAI - and to protect the engine against running lean.


Your car and mine run at about the same power to weight ratio, and I'm still experiencing mild push (understeer) on the tighter turns at NJMP (I guess you could call it my "home" track). Fairly heavy understeer is easy to come by at autocross around 180° single-cone pin turns, but it's not bad otherwise. At any rate, 9.5" wide wheels and 255/45 tires just aren't enough any more, and -1.8° (front) camber isn't really enough either but at least it's not entirely horrible.

285/35-20's in Michelin PSS on your 10's is one of two suggestions I'd make, and the 285/35-20 Hankook RS-3 is the other. BTW (full disclosure - I'm currently looking at 285/35-18's in either the PSS or in Hankook's RS-3 on 18x10.5's for next year). The RS-3's are probably a bit grippier in the dry than the PSS, but you pay for that with a shorter tread life and wet performance that's not quite up to the PSS.


Norm


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