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-   -   GM Oil pump fail (http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=324731)

gr8daneh 10-24-2013 10:21 AM

GM Oil pump fail
 
Hi guys, finally got bit. Started it up and rolled about 50 feet and got the dreaded "No Oil Pressure" message. Shut it down. I know you've heard this story before. Here is the twist...

This was already a new pump installed when I did my CAM at 10,000 miles. I am now just over 25,000. JDP motorsports suggested the early change as a preventive measure at that time. Little did they know that the GM pumps continue to fail even in the new year models and was not just a bad batch problem. They have fixed 6 other Camaro's already this year apparently.

So the moral to my story and maybe what you readers should take away is don't replace bad with bad. I am going to put a Melling oil pump in this time which is what JDP is using going forward. I am just hoping that there was no damage up top to add to my grief.

That is all! Have a good day.

:violin:

Unobtainium 10-24-2013 10:41 AM

Thanks for letting us know. Hopefully no damage!!

briancb1 10-24-2013 01:28 PM

Sorry to hear but wow lack of details.How did it fail?Debris cause a the reliefe plunger to be stuck i assume? No aftermarket pump will fix that unfortunetly as they all are copies of the OE design in that regard.Bad batch? What was bad about them?

jth6373 10-24-2013 01:31 PM

Is it a more aggressive cam which is causing these to break, or is this happening on stock engines as well?

litle88 10-24-2013 03:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by briancb1 (Post 7122272)
Sorry to hear but wow lack of details.How did it fail?Debris cause a the reliefe plunger to be stuck i assume? No aftermarket pump will fix that unfortunetly as they all are copies of the OE design in that regard.Bad batch? What was bad about them?

No it is not a copy melling 10296's are of different materials and are blue printed. The plunger sticks or the rotors gall due to two cheap metals in contact with each other.

Ls pumps have sucked since 1997 they are all the same. Except the L99's but the melling a are still an upgrade.

litle88 10-24-2013 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jth6373 (Post 7122287)
Is it a more aggressive cam which is causing these to break, or is this happening on stock engines as well?

Pump failures have absolutely NO correlation with big cams.

gr8daneh 10-24-2013 03:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by briancb1 (Post 7122272)
Sorry to hear but wow lack of details.How did it fail?Debris cause a the reliefe plunger to be stuck i assume? No aftermarket pump will fix that unfortunetly as they all are copies of the OE design in that regard.Bad batch? What was bad about them?

Unknown what the failure mechanism is. The event was just last night. JDP is going to open it up this weekend, but all indicators are debris causing a stuck plunger which is the common failure mode with the GM pumps.

:emoticon1:

gr8daneh 10-29-2013 10:44 AM

Fuuuuuu****K! Just got the verdict. Scored my CAM to sh*t, lifters are bad, check valve completely stuck open on pump = no pressure. Only ran for less than a minute this way. Looks like major dollars for less than 15,000 miles of run time. Can't believe it. :((

vroomapunk 10-29-2013 10:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gr8daneh (Post 7137301)
Fuuuuuu****K! Just got the verdict. Scored my CAM to sh*t, lifters are bad, check valve completely stuck open on pump = no pressure. Only ran for less than a minute this way. Looks like major dollars for less than 15,000 miles of run time. Can't believe it. :((

What a nightmare, sorry man, thats awful.

strych9 10-29-2013 11:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gr8daneh (Post 7137301)
Fuuuuuu****K! Just got the verdict. Scored my CAM to sh*t, lifters are bad, check valve completely stuck open on pump = no pressure. Only ran for less than a minute this way. Looks like major dollars for less than 15,000 miles of run time. Can't believe it. :((

Question then is: did the cam disintegrate first, introducing metal into the oil and causing the oil pump regulator to stick? Seems to be common, and frankly makes me very nervous, given my setup.

Cam brand? Oil brand?

Sorry for your troubles, OP. Good luck, my friend.

gr8daneh 10-29-2013 12:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vroomapunk (Post 7137327)
What a nightmare, sorry man, thats awful.

Thanks! Appreciate the empathy...

Quote:

Question then is: did the cam disintegrate first, introducing metal into the oil and causing the oil pump regulator to stick? Seems to be common, and frankly makes me very nervous, given my setup.

Cam brand? Oil brand?

Sorry for your troubles, OP. Good luck, my friend.
CAM Is missing a chunk, not sure that happened first. Comp CAM, Mobil synthetic. Thanks for the wishes.

litle88 10-29-2013 06:03 PM

Mobil 1 makes me cringe when guys/gals get aggressive cams

BigRed 10-29-2013 06:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by litle88 (Post 7138758)
Mobil 1 makes me cringe when guys/gals get aggressive cams

May I ask why? I'm actually curious due to the fact I'm going in for a Cam install Monday and that's what they said they are going to put in the car.

Irnwkrkev 10-29-2013 07:52 PM

Sounds like another one of the comp cam failures. A chunk of a cam for less then 60 seconds without oil pressure seems like a bit much.

I once had a Dodge Ram with a 318 where the old gasket stuck to the block after changing the oil and filter. With more then 1 minute running driving to an exit with no oil pressure I had the truck towed home, put a new filter and oil, and all's well for 140,000 miles and counting (my brother in-law still has it on the road).

I've got a the factory oil pump in my car with over 30,000 miles since a cam swap (ZR1 cam) with nothing but Mobil 1 0W40. The rev limiter is set at 6,800 rpm and is brought that high pretty frequently with dozens of 1/8 mile passes. Only at my last oil change did I start adding a ZDP additive.

Granted my cam uses stock springs which aren't high pressure but I wonder how many of the oil pump failures posted have been with comp cams?

f5journal 10-30-2013 09:09 AM

Engine failed first...Oil pump failed second...I've read every one of these threads in the past 4 years

VADER SS L99 10-30-2013 09:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gr8daneh (Post 7137638)
Thanks! Appreciate the empathy...



CAM Is missing a chunk, not sure that happened first. Comp CAM, Mobil synthetic. Thanks for the wishes.

Underlined in red is a big part of your problem and could be the source. M1 has no business being in a cammed engine. The aftermarket cams just have too fast of a ramp rate and M1 in ANY weight either does not have the film strength or correct amount of ZDDP. There have been too many lifter/cam failures in the last couple of years and almost all of them (including me) had M1 in the crank case. Anyone who reads this should be warned. Don't use M1 of any type or weight no matter what your tuner/builder recommends if you have a aftermarket cam. The oil just is not what it used to be.

Drew10 10-30-2013 09:34 AM

Sorry to hear of your troubles gr8. There really isn't much going on inside of these pumps for them to be having all these problems. Couple of gears, a spring, check ball is about it. Must be bad materials.

What kind of oil do you guys running cams recommend? I have the G6X3 cam, which is pretty radical, and I would rather be safe than sorry. Does Royal Purple have the additives in it to reduce wear on the cam lobes? I thought about trying Joe Gibbs oil because it has the zink additive in it.

SSDan 10-30-2013 10:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drew10 (Post 7140536)
Sorry to hear of your troubles gr8. There really isn't much going on inside of these pumps for them to be having all these problems. Couple of gears, a spring, check ball is about it. Must be bad materials.

What kind of oil do you guys running cams recommend? I have the G6X3 cam, which is pretty radical, and I would rather be safe than sorry. Does Royal Purple have the additives in it to reduce wear on the cam lobes? I thought about trying Joe Gibbs oil because it has the zink additive in it.

Drew - its highly recommended by many on this forum and elsewhere to run an oil that has higher zinc and phosphorus additives (ZDPP) than the current formula for Mobil 1. These additives have anti-wear properties that are good for us guys running higher lift cams. I run Royal Purple "HPS". It has the anti-wear additives. I use RP per my builder's recommendation (Ron @ Vengeance Racing). Joe Gibbs has a good reputation as well.

Others may well jump in with some "RP is crap" comments. :iono: While I respect their opinion - I just respect Ron's more. That oil is the only oil he uses in his street builds.

I've been very happy with this oil for about 10K miles now. My valve train is a little less noisy and I have a little less blow by in my catch can. Not sure if those are because of the oil or just there are more miles on the engine and everything is well broken in. But I like the results.

litle88 10-30-2013 10:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigRed (Post 7138778)
May I ask why? I'm actually curious due to the fact I'm going in for a Cam install Monday and that's what they said they are going to put in the car.

Vader pretty much summed it up. If you go with a cam then you should also change oil. Amsoil zrod, vr1, joe Gibbs, rp all are good oils.

JWoj3540 10-30-2013 12:40 PM

OP, it pains me to hear this...sorry man. On another note, some of you "failure mode" language tells me that you have done a DFMEA or two in your lifetime ;)

376LS3 10-30-2013 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by litle88 (Post 7138758)
Mobil 1 makes me cringe when guys/gals get aggressive cams

That hilarious cause I cringed when I saw that too! I see you recommend RP. Did they change their setup at all? I had read a couple posts on LS1TECH that the oil was too slippery and sometimes actually caused sludge. I switched to Valvoline Synpower since VR1 got pulled from the shelves. So far so good!

JDP Motorsports 10-30-2013 04:50 PM

Whenever I get the dreaded call that a customers car has lost oil pressure I cringe.. I've had customers run them for what they think is 30 seconds but the issue is we rely on the warning to alert us opposed to watching the oil pressure; that could be 2 minutes plus of low pressure before a complete pressure loss occurs. This car is very well taken care of so it isn't a maintenance issue.

I've had the stock pumps fail in 100% stock LS cars, in bolt-on LS cars and in LS cars with cam packages. I haven't seen as many until 2010 and we always assumed it was a bad batch from GM; remember there batches are HUGE. We've always replaced the OEM pumps with new OEM units in the 2010 Camaros just to be safe but we've had a few check valves stick this year and we've since gone to the Melling pumps. I talked with our GM rep and they are aware of the issue but in their world it is such a small percentage that it doesn't warrant change; I would disagree.

The scoring on the cam is seen on stock cams as well as aftermarket cams and in this case the cam was pretty mild. I think that the check valve starts to cause lower pressure as it sticks and the first place that suffers from that lack of pressure is the top end. I also think oil should be changed every 3K miles or 3 months; dirty oil can cause these failures as well. I have people tell me their oil is good for 5K miles or their Oil Life Monitor says they have 20% until a change is required; I disagree. The filter only has so much capacity and you can call me old school all day long but I change my oil at no more than 3K miles or 3 months. I'm not saying that is the case here but it is always a good idea.

We've done testing on numerous cam packages in long duration high RPM instances over thousands of miles with Mobil1 and we haven't has issues. I do prefer Red Line personally but it is twice the cost of Mobil1 and I also like the PF48R filters over the PF48. There are other good premium brands out there as well I just prefer Red Line.

She is back together with our Stage II camshaft and new lifters.



I appreciate your support and I'm always happy to answer questions, Dane. I'll let you know when the tuning is buttoned up and she can come back home. :chevy:

Kind regards,

Jordan Priestley
888.308.6007

strych9 10-30-2013 04:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDP Motorsports (Post 7142011)
Whenever I get the dreaded call that a customers car has lost oil pressure I cringe.. I've had customers run them for what they think is 30 seconds but the issue is we rely on the warning to alert us opposed to watching the oil pressure; that could be 2 minutes plus of low pressure before a complete pressure loss occurs. This car is very well taken care of so it isn't a maintenance issue.

I've had the stock pumps fail in 100% stock LS cars, in bolt-on LS cars and in LS cars with cam packages. I haven't seen as many until 2010 and we always assumed it was a bad batch from GM; remember there batches are HUGE. We've always replaced the OEM pumps with new OEM units in the 2010 Camaros just to be safe but we've had a few check valves stick this year and we've since gone to the Melling pumps. I talked with our GM rep and they are aware of the issue but in their world it is such a small percentage that it doesn't warrant change; I would disagree.

The scoring on the cam is seen on stock cams as well as aftermarket cams and in this case the cam was pretty mild. I think that the check valve starts to cause lower pressure as it sticks and the first place that suffers from that lack of pressure is the top end. I also think oil should be changed every 3K miles or 3 months; dirty oil can cause these failures as well. I have people tell me their oil is good for 5K miles or their Oil Life Monitor says they have 20% until a change is required; I disagree. The filter only has so much capacity and you can call me old school all day long but I change my oil at no more than 3K miles or 3 months. I'm not saying that is the case here but it is always a good idea.

We've done testing on numerous cam packages in long duration high RPM instances over thousands of miles with Mobil1 and we haven't has issues. I do prefer Red Line personally but it is twice the cost of Mobil1 and I also like the PF48R filters over the PF48. There are other good premium brands out there as well I just prefer Red Line.

She is back together with our Stage II camshaft and new lifters.



I appreciate your support and I'm always happy to answer questions, Dane. I'll let you know when the tuning is buttoned up and she can come back home. :chevy:

Kind regards,

Jordan Priestley
888.308.6007

Excellent info! I disagree with the film strength argument made by another poster, as Mobil1 has a very high film strength rating. Zinc...could be a factor, but I would be interested to see some analyses. Several big-name performance builders use and recommend Mobil1 with their builds and installs, so it's hard to know who to believe.

litle88 10-30-2013 06:17 PM

What big name performance builders recommend mobil1?
I've heard of redline being good too, no personal experience but I use redline d4 tranny fluid and it's good stuff.

No I'm still not a fan of RP but I've known others here in the area that use it, their formul has changed from what they showed me.

Irnwkrkev 10-30-2013 06:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by litle88 (Post 7142263)
What big name performance builders recommend mobil1?


A few years ago I read a thread where Slohawk recommended 0W40 Mobile 1 exclusively.

He's not an active member on this board anymore but I believe a certain high post count member from the north east has just started using him to wrench on his car :)


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