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-   -   Camaros, Turbos, Mpgs and the Underappreciated V8 (http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4158)

camaro5 05-18-2008 03:19 PM

The GMnext blog has a post up that talks about the potential viability of a low-displacement turbocharged motor -- the direct-injected 2.0L Ecotec turbo, specifically -- in upcoming GM cars, including the Camaro. Let's talk about this a little. The breathed-upon Ecotec delivers 260 horses and 260 lb-ft of torque, and if you've driven, say, the Sky or Solstice equipped with it, you know just how ballsy it really is. It's more powerful (but less torquey) than either V8 offered in the '87 IROC-Z that I thought was so cool back during high school. The turbo four might well be a nice solution in a future iteration of the Camaro, but is the fuel economy argument for it as rock solid as it might seem on the surface?

The Pontiac Solstice GXP with the turbo four has an EPA fuel economy rating of 19 city/28 hwy when mated to a 5-speed manual. Not bad at all for the performance it delivers, but that same drivetrain in the bigger, heavier Camaro isn't likely to give you equal returns in terms of fuel consumption. Over at AutoblogGreen, Sam notes that the 2.0 turbo's lighter weight relative to the six- and eight-cylinders the Camaro's going to launch with should help somewhat. He follows by reminding us that GM's next-gen mild hybrid system will work with RWD cars and predicts that we'll see a 2.0T hybrid Camaro by 2011 or so. This would dovetail neatly with the first phase of the new CAFE regs, and we're sure GM would find a way to engineer a hypothetical turbo/hybrid's fuel economy numbers so they'd play nice within Uncle Sam's rules. Great.

The issue with all this talk of four-cylinder turbos and hybrids for a muscle car (along with attempts to redefine the class and reset expectations) is that everyone conveniently overlooks just how good the existing V8 is. In the 2008 Corvette Coupe, the big bad 6.2L LS3 is rated at 16 city/26 hwy. Hardly a guzzler in the traditional sense, the V8's rating isn't that far off from the direct-injected Ecotec turbo. Furthermore, the V8's fuel economy comes with 430 horsepower and 424 lb-ft of torque. Those are numbers befitting a muscle car like a Camaro. Who's to say a direct-injected LS-family V8 with efficiency tech like hybridization and/or cylinder deactivation wouldn't be just as effective at meeting the federal fuel economy requirements that begin taking effect a few years from now? You could potentially satisfy the government-created CAFE gods without giving the customers who want actual, traditional muscle the finger in the process. Yes, the consensus seems to be that smaller engines will be a necessity across the board in the new CAFE era, but let's not summarily ignore the bigger ones just because they're big.


http://www.autoblog.com/2008/05/18/c...ppreciated-v8/

CamaroSpike23 05-18-2008 03:22 PM

werd.

camaro5 05-18-2008 03:34 PM

The problem I have is I want my TORQUE. I test drove a Infiniti G37 with 330hp, 270 lbs/ft torque V6, 0-60 5.3 sec. This is a great car, highly refined, but as many times as I mashed the accelerator to the floor, I never felt the thrill of being instantly pushed into the seat. I must also point out that the fuel mileage is similar to Chevy V8's.

They do not stock them without sunroofs, so my head was jammed into the headliner the whole time. With no sunroof I would fit. But needless to say, I'm waiting for Camaro.

ToneyTone 05-18-2008 03:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by camaro5 (Post 70427)
The problem I have is I want my TORQUE. I test drove a Infiniti G37 with 330hp, 270 lbs/ft torque V6, 0-60 5.3 sec. This is a great car, highly refined, but as many times as I mashed the accelerator to the floor, I never felt the thrill of being instantly pushed into the seat. I must also point out that the fuel mileage is similar to Chevy V8's.

They do not stock them without sunroofs, so my head was jammed into the headliner the whole time. With no sunroof I would fit. But needless to say, I'm waiting for Camaro.

With those numbers out of the infiniti it makes me wonder what the DI V-6 in the maro can do against the 370Z from nissan.

camaro5 05-18-2008 05:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ToneyTone (Post 70428)
With those numbers out of the infiniti it makes me wonder what the DI V-6 in the maro can do against the 370Z from nissan.


Ya, the Camaro V6 is rumored to be detuned from 300hp to 260. If you could re-tune that to 300hp, minus the weight difference w/ V8, could be killer. So killer they detuned to 260hp so they can sell V8's.

The 370Z engine may get tweaked, only time will tell. Also the 370Z is smaller than the 350Z. All fun driving machines, so we win.

ToneyTone 05-18-2008 06:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by camaro5 (Post 70435)
Ya, the Camaro V6 is rumored to be detuned from 300hp to 260. If you could re-tune that to 300hp, minus the weight difference w/ V8, could be killer. So killer they detuned to 260hp so they can sell V8's.

The 370Z engine may get tweaked, only time will tell. Also the 370Z is smaller than the 350Z. All fun driving machines, so we win.

Do you mean the possible entry level engine option in the non-DI 3.6? Because all indication points to the same engine out of the CTS with the 304hp DI engine and thats the one I was talking about.

z28camaro2471 05-18-2008 06:44 PM

I with you on this "Camaro5". No need to entirely disregard v8s. In fact, as you so clearly note, we're not gaining much in terms of fuel efficiency with the I4.

camaro5 05-18-2008 07:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ToneyTone (Post 70440)
Do you mean the possible entry level engine option in the non-DI 3.6? Because all indication points to the same engine out of the CTS with the 304hp DI engine and thats the one I was talking about.

It'd definitely the 3.6L DOHC DI V6 that makes 304hp in Caddys. But that's where the detuned part comes in. We don't have GM confirmation yet, but more than a few inside reports are saying they will lower the power to 260hp (detune) so the lower priced, lesser optioned, lower profit V6 Camaros will not steal more profitable Mid level V8 Camaro sales. They also didn't think it was a good idea to have the Camaro V6 beat the current Mustang GT (V8). So expect 260hp V6, but we may be able to retune the 40hp back in to it. We'll see.


EDIT: We DO have GM confirmation. See post 11 below.


Quote:

Originally Posted by z28camaro2471 (Post 70443)
I with you on this "Camaro5". No need to entirely disregard v8s. In fact, as you so clearly note, we're not gaining much in terms of fuel efficiency with the I4.

Yes. :thumbup: Turns out if you want high performance period, you're going to pay at the pump, but you get more torque and horsepower out of a modern V8. You should see all the Infiniti G owners complaining about fuel mileage on the web.

v

Congoman775 05-18-2008 08:52 PM

First off.


the 370Z has already come out saying they are going to be a smaller lighter car, with a bigger more powerful engine (than the 350's 305hp) and a bigger price tag. look for the 370 to be a competitive force against the camaro but a rare opponent due to price tag.

second, did they really de-tune the V6 to 260??? thats horrible. they should at least keep it at 280 so that it dominates the mustang and challenger V6. common people, domination on every level.

DGthe3 05-18-2008 10:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Congoman775 (Post 70468)
second, did they really de-tune the V6 to 260??? thats horrible. they should at least keep it at 280 so that it dominates the mustang and challenger V6. common people, domination on every level.

Thats what I'm thinking too. thats what the other vehicles that have the DI V6 get. It makes sense for the Camaro. And even if it got the full 304 hp, the mustang GT might still be lighter and have more torque. But it would be a very close race around a road course. The V6 mustang on the other hand . . . not so much

camaro5 05-19-2008 01:18 AM

Check this out -
:) We DO have GM confirmation:


"In the Camaro, the 3.6 liter’s horsepower should be around 260, Lutz said, Fuel economy, he said, will be around 17 mpg city and 25 highway. That would place the V6 Camaro among best in class for a performance car."

SOURCE:

http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dl.../FREE/86927553

z

http://cwimg.sv.publicus.com/apps/pb...ArtNo=86927553

SSINSTR 05-19-2008 02:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by camaro5 (Post 70427)
The problem I have is I want my TORQUE. I test drove a Infiniti G37 with 330hp, 270 lbs/ft torque V6, 0-60 5.3 sec. This is a great car, highly refined, but as many times as I mashed the accelerator to the floor, I never felt the thrill of being instantly pushed into the seat.

:word: I drove one a few months ago and was not impressed. I honestly could have more fun in my chipped 1.8t than I could in that car. Just felt boring and didn't have that low end grunt.

Anyone else catch the mention of a DI LS motor. Makes me think of the "forget everything you know about engines" quote.

camaro5 05-19-2008 02:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SSINSTR (Post 70512)
:word: I drove one a few months ago and was not impressed. I honestly could have more fun in my chipped 1.8t than I could in that car. Just felt boring and didn't have that low end grunt.

Anyone else catch the mention of a DI LS motor. Makes me think of the "forget everything you know about engines" quote.

About the G37 - ya no thrill. It's super fast, but it doesn't feel it. God help us, maybe it's over-refined. :) But only 270 lbs/ft torque too...

The DI LS should debut in 2011 in small numbers with many more in 2012. Somewhere else I posted a UAW doc link showing DI future business with dates.
It would be a blast if they made some before that, but it does not look like it.

fbodfather more recently said "We have new stuff you haven't heard about" regarding the V8 engine, so it's something new. :thumbup::iono:

c

TAG UR IT 05-19-2008 03:21 AM

Well, give me something new. Like, ...40 miles to the gallon w/ 500hp new out of a V6. hehehehe...that'll work.

and I think everyone'll forget everything they knew about engines then!!!

Supermans 05-19-2008 07:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by camaro5 (Post 70513)
About the G37 - ya no thrill. It's super fast, but it doesn't feel it. God help us, maybe it's over-refined. :) But only 270 lbs/ft torque too...

The DI LS should debut in 2011 in small numbers with many more in 2012. Somewhere else I posted a UAW doc link showing DI future business with dates.
It would be a blast if they made some before that, but it does not look like it.

fbodfather more recently said "We have new stuff you haven't heard about" regarding the V8 engine, so it's something new. :thumbup::iono:

c

I agree, 400lbs of torque and you feel it...260 and you don't, no matter what the actual speed is..Let us hope that the V8 will live on in some fashion or another..

Grape Ape 05-21-2008 12:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by camaro5 (Post 70423)
The issue with all this talk of four-cylinder turbos and hybrids for a muscle car (along with attempts to redefine the class and reset expectations) is that everyone conveniently overlooks just how good the existing V8 is. In the 2008 Corvette Coupe, the big bad 6.2L LS3 is rated at 16 city/26 hwy. Hardly a guzzler in the traditional sense, the V8's rating isn't that far off from the direct-injected Ecotec turbo. Furthermore, the V8's fuel economy comes with 430 horsepower and 424 lb-ft of torque. Those are numbers befitting a muscle car like a Camaro. Who's to say a direct-injected LS-family V8 with efficiency tech like hybridization and/or cylinder deactivation wouldn't be just as effective at meeting the federal fuel economy requirements that begin taking effect a few years from now? You could potentially satisfy the government-created CAFE gods without giving the customers who want actual, traditional muscle the finger in the process. Yes, the consensus seems to be that smaller engines will be a necessity across the board in the new CAFE era, but let's not summarily ignore the bigger ones just because they're big.

What the author seems to be missing is that to get real mileage gains out of a hybrid (especially on the freeway) you need to shrink the engine and make it up with the electrics. So a 400 hp V8 might get replaced by a 320-340 hp V6 (or small V8) and 80-60 hp of batteries and electric motors.


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