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-   -   My theory about the Z/28 (http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=44727)

GM4lyfe 09-28-2009 09:29 AM

My theory about the Z/28
 
Didn't want to turn the other thread off topic: "What we want to see in and on the Z/28". Most people in that thread had some pretty good ideas what we would like to see the Z/28 hit the showrooms with. Most had alot of throwback ideas.

I hate to sound like Buzz Killjoy here, but do to GM financial situation, and needing to make money we may see a lot of "off the shelf" parts in/on the Z/28 if it comes out. Also to keep the cost down and make it affordable/compete with the competition. GM CEO hopes to break even by the middle of next year so hopefully more development takes place after that.

Models: We may see 1Z/28 and 2Z/28 options that mirror the current SS models
Price: We might see a $10-$15K price jump from the fully loaded SS.
Engine: LSA it is a proven engine that has enough power to compete with the competition. IF GM is developing a new engine it will be another one to two years before we see a Z/28
Suspension: GM may stuff the uplevel FE3 suspension or the CTS-V's Magnetic Ride Control w/Magnetic controled shocks. Also may equip it with the driver selectable stability/ride control of the Corvette/CTS-V. IF GM develops the upgradable suspension for the SS it may become standard on the Z/28
Brakes: Brembo, the GXP, SS, and CTS-V has them. The Z/28 may have larger cross drilled or slotted rotors.
Transmission: TR-6060 and the 6L90-E
Other: We may see some nice powered Recaro seats, Pilot Sport tires/Runcraps, 15/20 MPG:D, Launch Control stays, Body upgrades, hopefully more OEM aftermarket from GM.


:yikes:

RSHugger 09-28-2009 10:46 AM

Agree... the more off the shelf parts they can pull into a "Z" car the quicker we will see the car and the more likely it is to get past the accountants. Looking forward to hearing more on the Z as we move forward. Had my first chance to drive the car (3 day AVIS rental, yes it was an SS) and get goosebumps just thinking what a Z would be like to drive!

Roger

AZCamaroFan 09-28-2009 11:20 AM

why wouldn't they use off the shelf parts, with the high performance cars they have? i don't see a lot changing other than the engine. It's still going to have 20 inch wheels. The suspension will be stiffer, but it's not like they need special parts for that. I don't see a 1Z28 and a 2Z28. I think it'll come loaded , mostly, with just a couple options.

ironpeddler 09-28-2009 12:36 PM

I thought no matter what engine is in the Z28 it was already going to be almost 2 yrs. before we see a Z28?

Mr. Wyndham 09-28-2009 12:41 PM

I agree with your theory...pretty solid logic! :D

Just a couple notes of interest:
Engine: I doubt that they'll be developing an all new engine, like you. But it's not impossible that they would modify one for this specific application, (ala L99/LS3).
Suspension: The SS is already equipped with FE3, and the magnetic ride control and driver-selectable ride control is one in the same. More than anything else, I want to see this system in the car. :bow:
Other: If Ford can get the GT500 a rating of 16/22...dang it if Chevy can't at least match that. ;)

I really don't care what it is...so long as the price is right, I'm just overjoyed that the Z is coming back!! :happyanim:

GM4lyfe 09-28-2009 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by azfan (Post 977814)
why wouldn't they use off the shelf parts, with the high performance cars they have? i don't see a lot changing other than the engine. It's still going to have 20 inch wheels. The suspension will be stiffer, but it's not like they need special parts for that. I don't see a 1Z28 and a 2Z28. I think it'll come loaded , mostly, with just a couple options.

The point is I don't think that GM will develop:suspension, brakes, tranny, engine for a Z/28. Like they did with the ZR1, CTS-V, ect.
Quote:

Originally Posted by ironpeddler (Post 978054)
I thought no matter what engine is in the Z28 it was already going to be almost 2 yrs. before we see a Z28?

Nobody knows, that was my guess. GM engine R&D takes time, no more crap engines. They can't help if they get crap from parts from an outsorced company.
Quote:

Originally Posted by Dragoneye (Post 978067)
I agree with your theory...pretty solid logic! :D

Just a couple notes of interest:
Engine: I doubt that they'll be developing an all new engine, like you. But it's not impossible that they would modify one for this specific application, (ala L99/LS3).
Suspension: The SS is already equipped with FE3, and the magnetic ride control and driver-selectable ride control is one in the same. More than anything else, I want to see this system in the car. :bow:
Other: If Ford can get the GT500 a rating of 16/22...dang it if Chevy can't at least match that. ;)

I really don't care what it is...so long as the price is right, I'm just overjoyed that the Z is coming back!! :happyanim:

I was not for shure about the FE3 but I think it will be something stiffer and more technical than the SS. I take info from Mags with a grain of salt but they are saying the SS does not handle very well.

ShnOmac 09-28-2009 02:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GM4lyfe (Post 978311)
I take info from Mags with a grain of salt but they are saying the SS does not handle very well.

Depends on what you are talking about by handling.... Are you talking about just cruising the streets or are you talking about pushing it through a apex at a furious pace?
If your talking about the track, Its nothing that a little suspension work cant cure! :thumbsup:


Quote:

Originally Posted by JusticePete (Post 641836)
Now you are on my turf. When we are done Pedderising your car you'll be able to hit apexes with a 2010 Camaro that feels 1,000 pounds lighter. The car will track and turn-in at levels that will radically alter your opinion. The difference in perspective is that I have already driven a dialed in 5th Gen. We have to get you into a fully Pedderised 5th Gen.


GM4lyfe 09-28-2009 06:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shnomac77 (Post 978413)
Depends on what you are talking about by handling.... Are you talking about just cruising the streets or are you talking about pushing it through a apex at a furious pace?
If your talking about the track, Its nothing that a little suspension work cant cure! :thumbsup:

I'm pretty sure it can hold its own on the streets. I guess if pushed you can tell. True alittle money in the suspension can go along way. Hopefull GM will hook the Camaro up from the factory.

2cnd chance 09-28-2009 09:22 PM

I'm sure Pedders was involved in the Z/28 suspension.
And that makes me happy!

GM4lyfe 09-29-2009 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2cnd chance (Post 980240)
I'm sure Pedders was involved in the Z/28 suspension.
And that makes me happy!

Hope so. We'll see...

2010-1SS-IBM 09-29-2009 04:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GM4lyfe (Post 977484)
Price: We might see a $10-$15K price jump from the fully loaded SS.

I have no theories about the Z28 yet, except regarding the piece I quote above. I think if GM goes that high in price it will be a disaster. Not saying they won't do it, just that it won't sell in high enough volumes to justify the line.

I think if the base model goes above high-30's to low-40's, they will be in trouble. Performance in the $30-$35k range is an empty field. Performance in the $50k+ range is packed, in some cases by other GM cars.

Fandango 09-29-2009 04:42 PM

What I want to know is... when do we see some pre-pros hit the street and get some spy shots of this beast. Secondly, will GM have a Concept or Push car for car shows in the following year.

Fandango 09-29-2009 04:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2010-1SS-IBM (Post 983545)
I have no theories about the Z28 yet, except regarding the piece I quote above. I think if GM goes that high in price it will be a disaster. Not saying they won't do it, just that it won't sell in high enough volumes to justify the line.

I think if the base model goes above high-30's to low-40's, they will be in trouble. Performance in the $30-$35k range is an empty field. Performance in the $50k+ range is packed, in some cases by other GM cars.

:word:

ShnOmac 09-29-2009 05:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2cnd chance (Post 980240)
I'm sure Pedders was involved in the Z/28 suspension.
And that makes me happy!

:word: I sure hope so :thumbsup:

GM4lyfe 09-29-2009 06:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2010-1SS-IBM (Post 983545)
I have no theories about the Z28 yet, except regarding the piece I quote above. I think if GM goes that high in price it will be a disaster. Not saying they won't do it, just that it won't sell in high enough volumes to justify the line.

I think if the base model goes above high-30's to low-40's, they will be in trouble. Performance in the $30-$35k range is an empty field. Performance in the $50k+ range is packed, in some cases by other GM cars.

I'm not following you. What I'm saying based off Camaro's website that the 2SS starts at $34K, the Z/28 maybe $10k-$15K on top of that like $44K-$50K. I don't think we'll see a performance car with 500+hp under $40K.

ShnOmac 09-29-2009 06:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2010-1SS-IBM (Post 983545)
I think if the base model goes above high-30's to low-40's, they will be in trouble. Performance in the $30-$35k range is an empty field. Performance in the $50k+ range is packed, in some cases by other GM cars.

Huh?

2010-1SS-IBM 09-29-2009 09:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GM4lyfe (Post 984053)
I'm not following you. What I'm saying based off Camaro's website that the 2SS starts at $34K, the Z/28 maybe $10k-$15K on top of that like $44K-$50K. I don't think we'll see a performance car with 500+hp under $40K.

I understand that, but there's nothing special about a performance car at that price. Pricing it like that will only net the die-hard Camaro enthusiasts who also have money to spend, which is a very small part of the buying public.

The Corvette starts at $48k (same price range), Corvette convertible $53k (~$5k more) the GT500 $46k (same price range), the GT500 Convertible $51k (same price range). And even though it's not the same kind of performance, the 370Z Nismo would be a comparative bargain at $39k ($5k-$10k less). The Cadillac CTS-V would only be $9k-$14k more, the BMW M3 coupe would be between $8k and $14k more, the Mercedes C63 AMG would be between $7k and $13k more.

They'd be crazy to sell a Z28 in that range, it would be slaughtered.

Mr. Wyndham 09-29-2009 09:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2010-1SS-IBM (Post 984919)
I understand that, but there's nothing special about a performance car at that price. Pricing it like that will only net the die-hard Camaro enthusiasts who also have money to spend, which is a very small part of the buying public.

The Corvette starts at $48k (same price range), Corvette convertible $53k (~$5k more) the GT500 $46k (same price range), the GT500 Convertible $51k (same price range). And even though it's not the same kind of performance, the 370Z Nismo would be a comparative bargain at $39k ($5k-$10k less). The Cadillac CTS-V would only be $9k-$14k more, the BMW M3 coupe would be between $8k and $14k more, the Mercedes C63 AMG would be between $7k and $13k more.

They'd be crazy to sell a Z28 in that range, it would be slaughtered.

You're not making very much sense. :(
For one, they don't intend to sell this model in volume. 2-5k...maybe. If they did, they wouldn't have waited to make it. So, perhaps you might rethink the target buyer for the Z?

The Corvette is a totally different car, marketed to an entirely different crowd. It is not competition, so strike it off the list.

Convertibles? huh?

The Nismo Nissan is different as well. The SS already outperforms it...so I don't understand how you'd consider it a bargain compared to a Z28? :iono:

The Cadillac...is again, different -- a 4-door, LUXURY sedan...not competition for the Z, and since you're taking issue with a 15k increase over a stock SS...how can you quote 9-14k more for a V as "competiton" Same for the last two you listed....:iono:

That leaves the GT500...anddd....the GT500. The performance of which costs roughly $45 grand. You can't get there for less. Honestly, unless they don't offer similar performance Z...I don't understand why it wouldn't (and shouldn't) cost in that same range. :iono:

GM4lyfe 09-29-2009 10:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2010-1SS-IBM (Post 984919)
I understand that, but there's nothing special about a performance car at that price. Pricing it like that will only net the die-hard Camaro enthusiasts who also have money to spend, which is a very small part of the buying public.

The Corvette starts at $48k (same price range), Corvette convertible $53k (~$5k more) the GT500 $46k (same price range), the GT500 Convertible $51k (same price range). And even though it's not the same kind of performance, the 370Z Nismo would be a comparative bargain at $39k ($5k-$10k less). The Cadillac CTS-V would only be $9k-$14k more, the BMW M3 coupe would be between $8k and $14k more, the Mercedes C63 AMG would be between $7k and $13k more.

They'd be crazy to sell a Z28 in that range, it would be slaughtered.

I'm sorry man but I'm still not following you. Many people have purchased the GT500 because it is the cheapest 500hp sports car you can buy. The other cars you have listed is not in the same league as the Camaro. The only car that it can compete with is the GT500. Ohh then you have the 425HP Dodge Challanger SRT8 priced at $43000(I know a guy that drove off the lot $50k). If your expecting the Z/28 to be priced under $40k not a chance.
Quote:

Originally Posted by Dragoneye (Post 985085)
You're not making very much sense. :(
For one, they don't intend to sell this model in volume. 2-5k...maybe. If they did, they wouldn't have waited to make it. So, perhaps you might rethink the target buyer for the Z?

The Corvette is a totally different car, marketed to an entirely different crowd. It is not competition, so strike it off the list.

Convertibles? huh?

The Nismo Nissan is different as well. The SS already outperforms it...so I don't understand how you'd consider it a bargain compared to a Z28? :iono:

The Cadillac...is again, different -- a 4-door, LUXURY sedan...not competition for the Z, and since you're taking issue with a 15k increase over a stock SS...how can you quote 9-14k more for a V as "competiton" Same for the last two you listed....:iono:

That leaves the GT500...anddd....the GT500. The performance of which costs roughly $45 grand. You can't get there for less. Honestly, unless they don't offer similar performance Z...I don't understand why it wouldn't (and shouldn't) cost in that same range. :iono:

I agree.

2010-1SS-IBM 09-29-2009 10:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dragoneye (Post 985085)
You're not making very much sense. :(
For one, they don't intend to sell this model in volume. 2-5k...maybe. If they did, they wouldn't have waited to make it. So, perhaps you might rethink the target buyer for the Z?

You don't have to worry, at that price they definately won't sell the model in volume regardless of whether they plan it that way or not.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dragoneye (Post 985085)
The Corvette is a totally different car, marketed to an entirely different crowd. It is not competition, so strike it off the list.

Convertibles? huh?

The Nismo Nissan is different as well. The SS already outperforms it...so I don't understand how you'd consider it a bargain compared to a Z28? :iono:

The Cadillac...is again, different -- a 4-door, LUXURY sedan...not competition for the Z, and since you're taking issue with a 15k increase over a stock SS...how can you quote 9-14k more for a V as "competiton" Same for the last two you listed....:iono:

That leaves the GT500...anddd....the GT500. The performance of which costs roughly $45 grand. You can't get there for less. Honestly, unless they don't offer similar performance Z...I don't understand why it wouldn't (and shouldn't) cost in that same range. :iono:

If you think people spend ~$50k without looking at every car out there, you are insane.

2010-1SS-IBM 09-29-2009 10:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GM4lyfe (Post 985198)
I'm sorry man but I'm still not following you. Many people have purchased the GT500 because it is the cheapest 500hp sports car you can buy. The other cars you have listed is not in the same league as the Camaro. The only car that it can compete with is the GT500. Ohh then you have the 425HP Dodge Challanger SRT8 priced at $43000(I know a guy that drove off the lot $50k). If your expecting the Z/28 to be priced under $40k not a chance.

And if your pricing turns out to be correct, the GT500 will still be the cheapest 500hp+ sports car you can buy. Get it?

Mr. Wyndham 09-29-2009 10:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2010-1SS-IBM (Post 985381)
You don't have to worry, at that price they definately won't sell the model in volume regardless of whether they plan it that way or not.

I'm not worrying...and that's the point I attempted to make...selling in volume is not a priority for this car. So why kill themselves to try and price it like it is?

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2010-1SS-IBM (Post 985381)
If you think people spend ~$50k without looking at every car out there, you are insane.

Well...it's a good thing I'm not in a nut-hospital then, cause they'd kick me out.

I KNOW people look at every car in the price-range...but half of the cars you listed were OUT of the price-range...and no car (besides the GT500) offers the same combination of features the Z28 does. So while a consumer may look at a bunch of similarly-priced cars just to see what's out there...they may only be in the market for a certain type. (ie. perhaps they want back seats...well, that strikes the Corvette and 370z right off the get-go) :iono:

Zabo 09-29-2009 11:10 PM

Dude I totally heard a theory that they're going to go with a LIO470 instead of the LSA in the Z/28. Factory Garmin too! When will it end..?

GM4lyfe 09-29-2009 11:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2010-1SS-IBM (Post 985387)
And if your pricing turns out to be correct, the GT500 will still be the cheapest 500hp+ sports car you can buy. Get it?

Huh? Ford site says starting MSRP $46325.
http://www.fordvehicles.com/cars/mustang/models/

2010-1SS-IBM 09-29-2009 11:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dragoneye (Post 985408)
I'm not worrying...and that's the point I attempted to make...selling in volume is not a priority for this car. So why kill themselves to try and price it like it is?

I know you didn't pick this up in my first post, but I don't believe you when you say GM is planning a limited production run of the Z28. It doesn't make sense, economically. They'd lose money, and there's no need to pump up recognition of Camaro's as they already have a waiting list 6 months long. Plus the convertible would do a better job of that than a Z28 since they can make money off convertibles.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dragoneye (Post 985408)
I KNOW people look at every car in the price-range...but half of the cars you listed were OUT of the price-range...and no car (besides the GT500) offers the same combination of features the Z28 does. So while a consumer may look at a bunch of similarly-priced cars just to see what's out there...they may only be in the market for a certain type. (ie. perhaps they want back seats...well, that strikes the Corvette and 370z right off the get-go) :iono:

No, they are not out of the price range. If you can swing $50k for a muscle car, you can swing $60k for a wider variety of cars. Put it this way, a $50k Z28 fully financed would be ~$1000/month. The CTS-V would be ~$1,160/month and has the exact same engine and many more features. Everybody would consider that.

Add on top of that, they are both GM cars. How does GM win if a prospective CTS-V buyer purchased a Camaro instead? They lose $8k-$12k in revenue. And that's the good version. The bad version is the buyer figures out he can have a C63 AMG instead of either of those, and GM doesn't get a sale at all. Now GM's new Camaro has people thinking about muscle, but it's price has them thinking about luxury too. Bad news for GM.

Put it this way, a lot of people will buy muscle cars for $35k. Go much beyond that though and they not only expect more, whatever they expect is readily available from other car manufacturers as well as GM.


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