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-   -   Downshifting into second...new Camaro owner/standard driver (http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=49318)

CamK18 10-27-2009 02:35 PM

Downshifting into second...new Camaro owner/standard driver
 
Hey guys,

I have had my LT for about 3 weeks and i have picked up standard pretty well, I just have one problem and a question for you guys.

When in third, and downshifting into second, its extremely jerky sometimes so I have started doing a single clutch downshift and that has helped alot...but its still relatively jerky.

Is this because im possibly going to fast? It usually happens when I am slowing down, approaching a light and shifting into second at about 40 hm/h (while doing the rev-match). Is this too fast and possibly causing the jerkyness?

Michael_Js 10-27-2009 03:08 PM

What are you doing if you're NOT doing a single clutch downshift? Double clutching?

I like to blip (quick press) on the throttle as I'm downshifting. It attempts to match the engine with the higher RPMs you will have once you downshift. Sounds like you might already be doing that though...

Very easy to do on my motorcycle, but takes some practice on the car.

CamK18 10-27-2009 03:11 PM

Yeah thats what I have been doing, blipping the gas before the downshift..works like a charm, no jerk at all in any other gear besides second. I dont usually downshift into first so i cant say for that gear but all the others seem fine.

nemosgt 10-27-2009 06:50 PM

Hi CamK18

Quote:
"When in third, and downshifting into second, its extremely jerky sometimes so I have started doing a single clutch downshift and that has helped alot...but its still relatively jerky."

Yeah, single-clutch downshift is the way to go. Double-clutching not required. You should not be using the transmission for slowing anyway. Downshift when you need the lower gear in order to accelerate. Use the brakes for slowing. Brake pads are cheaper than transmission repairs.

Remember, the lower gears (1st and 2nd) are comparatively steep, so try waiting till you have slowed more than for the higher gears before shifting.

Make sure you have rev-matched before releasing the clutch.
Practise makes perfect.

Cheers.

JHart 10-27-2009 06:54 PM

i usually hold my shifter next to the gear when i drop down, push the clutch in until it falls into the lower gear, and slowly let off the clutch. just takes practice man, hell i'm 17 and i've got this thing about down pat. took me about a month.

crazz28 10-28-2009 09:54 AM

When you are going to that low of gear you don't have much momentum and if you aren't perfectly matched in revs, these "lightweight" cars with high hp/tq engines will do thier own thing and jerk you around until it's found the right speed.
I don't even bother trying to downshift into second unless i'm barely rolling from third..........unless I'm coming up to a tunnel or something!!

CamK18 10-28-2009 01:35 PM

I did what you guys all said and im starting to get better..thanks guys!

lcmc 10-28-2009 02:15 PM

What's with double clutching. Haven't had to do that since the Model T was out!

JHart 10-28-2009 08:43 PM

idk what the hell double clutching is. i try to rev match my gears when downshifting, if that's double clutchin,i guess i do it alot then. lol.

xSSkier874 10-29-2009 01:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JHart (Post 1097481)
i usually hold my shifter next to the gear when i drop down, push the clutch in until it falls into the lower gear, and slowly let off the clutch. just takes practice man, hell i'm 17 and i've got this thing about down pat. took me about a month.

big no no my friend... by doing this your slipping the clutch :mad0259:. This isn't as big of any issue on the stock clutch but if you plan upgrading you may want to change your technique.

Susantroy1 10-29-2009 08:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nemosgt (Post 1097460)
Hi CamK18

Quote:
"When in third, and downshifting into second, its extremely jerky sometimes so I have started doing a single clutch downshift and that has helped alot...but its still relatively jerky."

Yeah, single-clutch downshift is the way to go. Double-clutching not required. You should not be using the transmission for slowing anyway. Downshift when you need the lower gear in order to accelerate. Use the brakes for slowing. Brake pads are cheaper than transmission repairs.

Remember, the lower gears (1st and 2nd) are comparatively steep, so try waiting till you have slowed more than for the higher gears before shifting.

Make sure you have rev-matched before releasing the clutch.
Practise makes perfect.

Cheers.

:iono: I have always used engine braking on all my bikes and vehicles to assist in slowing down. I've never had a tranny problems and my brakes last well into the 40-70k range. Am I not understanding here?? is nemosgt saying that engine braking is bad on a tranny?? anybody care to clear this up???

55Designs 10-29-2009 10:57 PM

I feel the same way and experience the same jerkiness.

For one I am not used to this driveline and I have other cars that Rev to 9000RPM and I can downshift at 4-5k RPM safely because the engines RPM will spike higher and not be a huge deal. The Camaro is a not happy doing that.

I tried downshifting on the Camro from 3-4500 RPM and it locks the rear up and skids dangerously. Going from 4th to 3rd, or 3rd to 2nd and were talking speed below 60MPH

Driving this car is an entirely new experience because its so unrefined compared to other cars I have and owned. I do hope things get better.

zebra 10-29-2009 11:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JHart (Post 1097481)
i usually hold my shifter next to the gear when i drop down, push the clutch in until it falls into the lower gear, and slowly let off the clutch. just takes practice man, hell i'm 17 and i've got this thing about down pat. took me about a month.

no no no. i can't stand it when people do that in my truck!! :mad0260: that's a great way to need a replacement clutch sooner. the less time you're working the clutch pedal on hard shifts like that, the better. if you want to downshift, you're much better off rev-matching because you ain't making the clutch disk slip and match engine/transmission speeds. that wears the surface more & builds up heat - 2 things you don't want.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lcmc (Post 1101734)
What's with double clutching. Haven't had to do that since the Model T was out!

or at least since synchronized gears came out

Quote:

Originally Posted by JHart (Post 1103694)
idk what the hell double clutching is. i try to rev match my gears when downshifting, if that's double clutchin,i guess i do it alot then. lol.

nope. double clutching is where you push the clutch, shift to neutral, release the clutch so the engine and input shaft match speeds, then push the clutch, select gear, and release the clutch.

this is really only needed in non-synchronized transmissions

Quote:

Originally Posted by Susantroy1 (Post 1105390)
:iono: I have always used engine braking on all my bikes and vehicles to assist in slowing down. I've never had a tranny problems and my brakes last well into the 40-70k range. Am I not understanding here?? is nemosgt saying that engine braking is bad on a tranny?? anybody care to clear this up???

it's just a littler harder on the transmission and clutch. the purpose of downshifting is to either be able to accelerate out of the lower gear or assist the brakes when you have a heavier load. if you're just rolling up to a stop sign, there's no need to downshift. just use the brakes - that's what they're made for

Quote:

Originally Posted by 55Designs (Post 1109560)
I feel the same way and experience the same jerkiness.

For one I am not used to this driveline and I have other cars that Rev to 9000RPM and I can downshift at 4-5k RPM safely because the engines RPM will spike higher and not be a huge deal. The Camaro is a not happy doing that.

I tried downshifting on the Camro from 3-4500 RPM and it locks the rear up and skids dangerously. Going from 4th to 3rd, or 3rd to 2nd and were talking speed below 60MPH

Driving this car is an entirely new experience because its so unrefined compared to other cars I have and owned. I do hope things get better.

consider, these engines ain't designed to rev as high as many smaller engines or even european or japanese engines. yes, it does take some time to get used to, but once you find the sweet spots for each gear, you'll be shifting like a madman! :burnrubber:

klatterblast 10-31-2009 02:34 AM

:chevy:i read this and was thinking say your rounding out a turn on a track or entrance ramp and you start to accelerate out the turn and your in a higher gear and your in the lower rpms where your not quite in the power band yet then you slip your clutch and give it gas to get the rpms up into the power band then feather the clutch out and haul ass ; well i thought that was double clutching . been racing dirt bikes & cars forever it gets your back tires spinning good in a higher gear so you can accelerate longer in one gear instead of having to shift so much, every second counts.

ckaram 10-31-2009 10:59 AM

I must be a dope. I don't follow what the the problem is with downshifting. It's probably the simplest part of driving a stick shift vehicle.

CamK18, if you downshift with the revs too high, the engine will aggressively gear down. If you pop the clutch when downshifting (releasing the clutch pedal too fast) it may jerk, and if the revs are too high you will also chirp the tires.

Try lowering the revs before downshifting from 3rd to 2nd. If you're going too fast it usually won't let you put in second gear anyway.

lee 10-31-2009 11:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lcmc (Post 1101734)
What's with double clutching. Haven't had to do that since the Model T was out!

im young so i never heard of double clutching untill "that movie" came out i dont even know what its for

nemosgt 10-31-2009 08:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 55Designs (Post 1109560)
I feel the same way and experience the same jerkiness.

For one I am not used to this driveline and I have other cars that Rev to 9000RPM and I can downshift at 4-5k RPM safely because the engines RPM will spike higher and not be a huge deal. The Camaro is a not happy doing that.

I tried downshifting on the Camro from 3-4500 RPM and it locks the rear up and skids dangerously. Going from 4th to 3rd, or 3rd to 2nd and were talking speed below 60MPH

Driving this car is an entirely new experience because its so unrefined compared to other cars I have and owned. I do hope things get better.

Unrefined yeah. "zebra" is pretty much right on with his advice.

You are obviously used to European or Asian cars with their "cut through butter" manuals. Welcome to the world of the muscle cars.

Now you know why you have to rev-match on the downshifts. If you don't the rear end locks up and loses its traction. It can come around on you very quickly. That is also why you don't downshift in a turn. If you miss the correct blip the car will spin out. Conversly, if the revs are too high when you let the clutch out, the car will try to jump forward and you lose traction on the front end. Also keep in mind the rev limiter may not save you if you release the cluch while shifting at super high revs.

Rev-matching is an art, as is heel and toe, which you will want to try soon, and requires practice to become proficient. Your car has lots of torque down low so don't keep shifting-down at high RPMs. The imports have their torque higher up. That's why they have to shift at higher revs.

Try down-shifting around 3000 RPM and blipping the throttle to around 4500 RPM. Clutch should be e released reasonably quickly before the RPMs drop too far and you lose the rev-match. This should put you right in the power band in the lower gear and you are all set to rumble.

Again, double clutch requires two pumps on the clutch pedal, between which, while the gear lever is in neutral, the throttle is blipped to rev-match, before releasing the pedal for the second time. Wastes time and is not required with synchromesh gears. Also, avoid downshifting into first, unless you are just crawling along. The gear is just too steep to do it comfortably. You will just stand the car on its nose. As long as the car is moving, second gear will give you lots of acceleration.

Cheers.
Happy blipping.:)

Standard 11-03-2009 09:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JHart (Post 1097481)
i usually hold my shifter next to the gear when i drop down, push the clutch in until it falls into the lower gear, and slowly let off the clutch. just takes practice man, hell i'm 17 and i've got this thing about down pat. took me about a month.

That isn't optimal - you're just spreading out the error over a period of time.

Blip the throttle and get it just right. Especially if you doubleclutch, the stick seems to be "sucked" into the gear when you get the revs just right, i.e. if you revmatch not only does the car not lurch but it goes in easier.

zebra 11-03-2009 12:30 PM

just don't double-clutch these transmissions.


there ain't no need :facepalm:

Standard 11-03-2009 01:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zebra (Post 1128719)
just don't double-clutch these transmissions.


there ain't no need :facepalm:

No need but
A: It's fun (gratifying to time it all right)
B: It IS reduced wear (albeit on something that will not wear out anyway)
C: Tactile aid in finding the revs when revmatching - you can feel it and do final corrections while pushing in the gear on the second clutch-in.

By *need* - there's no *need* to use a clutch at all in 4-5-6 if you can match the engine/drivetrain load in and out of gear and get the timing perfect - double-clutching provides another dimension to the driving experience, that can practically aid revmatching if you're not after the absolute in speed on the shift (and that becomes moot too if you're doing a wide jump like 6th to 3rd)

zebra 11-04-2009 12:00 AM

point noted :thumbsup:

bumbl-b2ss 11-05-2009 08:03 PM

i got my 2010 ss about a month ago, iv put 2400ish km on it and the syncro in second went. iv been driving stick all my life and actually drive a rig for a living and know how to shift. has anyone else had tranny problems like this?


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