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-   -   Tune + Warranty concerns (http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=50663)

Camarorss350 11-04-2009 06:17 PM

Tune + Warranty concerns
 
Okay so ive read most of the threads about how awesome GM's warranty is (sarcasm). Now i have a question, Will the dealer be able to tell if i tune my car, break something, put it back to stock, then take it in for service?

Basically im asking if the Computer in the 2010 camaro has the capacity to know when a stock tune has been modified then restored?

Just for the sake of avoiding hassles in the future. I cant afford any new part of this car without warranty coverage lol.

ffrcobra_65 11-04-2009 07:01 PM

Yes they can tell. Just wait til your warranty expires then you can mod all you want.

Scott@Bjorn3D 11-04-2009 07:42 PM

Yep they can tell.

Camarorss350 11-05-2009 08:42 AM

:(

Man this sucks!

Maybe i can get another computer, take out the stocker and pop a modded unit in?


Computers are prob expensive as all hell though i bet, anyone actually know if this would work and maybe even have a price for a stock unit?

Thanks for the help guys!!!

Alvin@PCMofNC 11-05-2009 08:52 AM

You got to pay to play just like anything else. The thing is the dealer has to prove the aftermarket part caused the failure. So if you tune a PCM they can't say thats the reason why your fuel pump quit, or your radio isn't working anymore.

Any tune is ulimately visible to GM. Period.

I'm not sure if the people who advertise "stealth tunes" have thought about legal issues. I'm no expert but it seems not to be a good idea to deliberately cheat your warranty contract. It seems like it could constitute fraud

ryeguycamaro 11-05-2009 08:54 AM

tunes
 
I beg to differ. VectorMotorsports power flash can restore stock tunes. The flash counter is not active in our ecu. I also have a friend who is a gm mechanic and he checked mine after I put the stock tune back in and he knew nothing different. All info came back as if it were a unmodified car. Also if it were tuned don't you think big brother would know and send a flag out? My diagonostic was just run and I have my tune in and everything was problem free. Call Vector Motorsports they can clarify all of this up for anyone. Lot easier to talk directly then to bounce back and fourth on the forums of he said she said.

CamaroSpike23 11-05-2009 09:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ryeguycamaro (Post 1135937)
I beg to differ. VectorMotorsports power flash can restore stock tunes. The flash counter is not active in our ecu. I also have a friend who is a gm mechanic and he checked mine after I put the stock tune back in and he knew nothing different. All info came back as if it were a unmodified car. Also if it were tuned don't you think big brother would know and send a flag out? My diagonostic was just run and I have my tune in and everything was problem free. Call Vector Motorsports they can clarify all of this up for anyone. Lot easier to talk directly then to bounce back and fourth on the forums of he said she said.


theres more to the tunes than what Vector is letting on. they dont know all the ins and outs of this computer the way they say they do.

Alvin@PCMofNC 11-05-2009 09:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ryeguycamaro (Post 1135937)
I beg to differ. VectorMotorsports power flash can restore stock tunes. The flash counter is not active in our ecu. I also have a friend who is a gm mechanic and he checked mine after I put the stock tune back in and he knew nothing different. All info came back as if it were a unmodified car. Also if it were tuned don't you think big brother would know and send a flag out? My diagonostic was just run and I have my tune in and everything was problem free. Call Vector Motorsports they can clarify all of this up for anyone. Lot easier to talk directly then to bounce back and fourth on the forums of he said she said.


The the stock tune is put back on the computer then yes it is not visible, but it is a stock tune again. If you have a tune still on the computer it is visible by GM at some level. I promise.

Camarorss350 11-05-2009 09:09 AM

Its funny that doing something good for your car can void your warranty. Once a tune is correctly set the motor runs more efficiently with less chance of a problem. Ig GM was smart they would introduce a tuning service...

But whatever it just sucks... and im just venting...:mad0233::seesaw:

GaryTucker 11-05-2009 09:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ryeguycamaro (Post 1135937)
I beg to differ. VectorMotorsports power flash can restore stock tunes. The flash counter is not active in our ecu. I also have a friend who is a gm mechanic and he checked mine after I put the stock tune back in and he knew nothing different. All info came back as if it were a unmodified car. Also if it were tuned don't you think big brother would know and send a flag out? My diagonostic was just run and I have my tune in and everything was problem free. Call Vector Motorsports they can clarify all of this up for anyone. Lot easier to talk directly then to bounce back and fourth on the forums of he said she said.

I also beg to differ...it isn't what the tech can see at the dealership...it is what GM can see when the dealership is REQUIRED to send the computer upload to them. My guess is that there is alot more going on "behind the scenes" that the techs can't even see. When you have a powertrain failure...it seems that GM is requiring an upload on nearly every one that happens. If GM couldn't see anything more than the techs...the really wouldn't need this as a screenshot printout would suffice.

I think you'd be suprised what the tuners may or may not know. I used to be supportive of the tuners until they started claiming "invisble" tunes and promoting ways for the customer to "go back to stock" as a way to cheat warranty concerns.

If you mod your car's powertrain, including a tune, then you need to accept that your powertrain warranty is void...just that simple.

As far as a tune making a car run better...not going to hash that out...but think of it this way...then why aren't the tuners offering some type of powertrain warranty. I know one of the suppliers (supercharger maybe) has a supplemental warranty available for powertrain coverage...I'd think a tuner that has done proper testing (more than just tuning a few cars for more hp) could verify their work to an insurer and get the same type of coverage available.

I'd also think that the tuners would be willing to assist their customers with what are being deemed "bogus" (by the tuners and their customers) denials of powertrain warranties. If their product could in no way cause a failure, then they should be willing to help defend their own work and name and also to help out their customer.

Steve@Vectormotorsports 11-05-2009 09:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alvin (Post 1135974)
The the stock tune is put back on the computer then yes it is not visible, but it is a stock tune again. If you have a tune still on the computer it is visible by GM at some level. I promise.

Plain and simple.


And we've tuned over 800 E38 ECM's if anyone thinks we don't know the "in's and outs" of this ECM I'd like to ask them how many cars have they tuned?

ryeguycamaro 11-05-2009 09:48 AM

tunes
 
exactly Alvin. If the stock tune is put back on it is stock. Your mod tune would be gone. Flash counter is not enabled. All of your other mods would have to be changed back also like headers etc, for it to run good as stock again.

GaryTucker 11-05-2009 11:21 AM

[QUOTE=Steve@Vectormotorsports;1136109]Plain and simple.


...

TAG UR IT 11-05-2009 12:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GaryTucker (Post 1136091)
I also beg to differ...it isn't what the tech can see at the dealership...it is what GM can see when the dealership is REQUIRED to send the computer upload to them. My guess is that there is alot more going on "behind the scenes" that the techs can't even see.

When you have a powertrain failure...it seems that GM is requiring an upload on nearly every one that happens.

YES THEY ARE.

If GM couldn't see anything more than the techs...they really wouldn't need this as a screenshot printout would suffice.

My goodness, common sense prevails! :laugh:
You hit the nail on the head!

I think you'd be suprised what the tuners may or may not know. I used to be supportive of the tuners until they started claiming "invisble" tunes and promoting ways for the customer to "go back to stock" as a way to cheat warranty concerns.

If you mod your car's powertrain, including a tune, then you need to accept that your powertrain warranty is void...just that simple.

EXACTLY. You gotta pay to play. If you can't pay for a powertrain failure, WAIT for that warranty to expire! Don't cheat the system....or try to.


As far as a tune making a car run better...not going to hash that out...but think of it this way...then why aren't the tuners offering some type of powertrain warranty.
:word:
I know one of the suppliers (supercharger maybe) has a supplemental warranty available for powertrain coverage...I'd think a tuner that has done proper testing (more than just tuning a few cars for more hp) could verify their work to an insurer and get the same type of coverage available.

Yep...and they sure do. They stand behind their work, their parts, their tuning, and offer from 1 year 12k mile to 3 year 36k mile warranties.

I'd also think that the tuners would be willing to assist their customers with what are being deemed "bogus" (by the tuners and their customers) denials of powertrain warranties. If their product could in no way cause a failure, then they should be willing to help defend their own work and name and also to help out their customer.

Yep once again.

And I'll leave it at that. ;)

ryeguycamaro 11-05-2009 03:25 PM

tunes.
 
so change it all back to stock and put your stock tune in. My stock tune is exactly the same as it came. We checked it out last night with the screen shot and it does not I repeat does not differ in any way. If all of you are so worried about it then forget it don't do it and quit whining about it. Ask a lot of the G8 guys what is happening to them with warranty work and a tune. They still get it as long as the stock is back on the car with stock parts. They are not getting denied. One of the only vehicles I know of with gm that has the flash counter enabled is the duramax diesel equipped vehicles.

toehead93 11-05-2009 04:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GaryTucker (Post 1136091)
I know one of the suppliers (supercharger maybe) has a supplemental warranty available for powertrain coverage...I'd think a tuner that has done proper testing (more than just tuning a few cars for more hp) could verify their work to an insurer and get the same type of coverage available.

Superchargers are marked up so much that the manufacturers can afford to offer a drivetrain warranty. If a tune cost $7,000 I guarantee you'd get a drivetrain warranty from your tuner, no sweat. :) In fact I'll tune your car for $7,000 and give you a 3-year/36k mile drivetrain warranty. PM me for details!!

So are we all agreeing the stock tune can be flashed back to stock and be undetected by the dealer if done right. And we agree that at this time it is still unknown if GM can see if the tune has been changed?

GaryTucker 11-05-2009 07:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by toehead93 (Post 1137882)
Superchargers are marked up so much that the manufacturers can afford to offer a drivetrain warranty. If a tune cost $7,000 I guarantee you'd get a drivetrain warranty from your tuner, no sweat. :) In fact I'll tune your car for $7,000 and give you a 3-year/36k mile drivetrain warranty. PM me for details!!

So are we all agreeing the stock tune can be flashed back to stock and be undetected by the dealer if done right. And we agree that at this time it is still unknown if GM can see if the tune has been changed?

If done right? Who is to say that GM can't see them if the REALLY want to look? Just because some G8 guys are getting away with it right now...doesn't mean you'll be able to get away with it tomorrow. Especially since the tuners are bragging on boards all over the place that GM CANNOT find their tune or about how easy it is to remove. We all know that GM trolls these sites...so why wouldn't we expect them to be working on a "fix" for this issue?

Maybe the tuners ought to investigate the warranty route versus just trying to be the "cheapest" on the block. A little differentiation goes a long way in the world of marketing. Instead of looking for the cheapest, most powerful tune a customer might just look for a tune with a warranty. I will tell you that the warranty issue is one reason my cars have always stayed stock until after the warranty expired.

I don't think it would be $7,000, but it would be more $500 as it would require the tuners to actually R&D their product to a point that they could document the failure ratios of their work so that they could get an actuary to figure the failure ratios and develop a cost scenario to base insurance coverage from...this would allow the tuner to offer a warranty on their product and they could even offer two options...warranty or no warranty. I'm betting they could get their cost back pretty quickly!

Oldrocker 11-05-2009 10:54 PM

I have spent alot of time researching this issue and can not find any evidence GM can tell if you have HAD a tune or not. The calibration verification numbers go back to stock numbers when the factory tune is programed back into the PCM.GM wants to see a snapshot of the CVN's to see if they match the calibration numbers so they can decide whether or not the numbers are GM released or not and decide to warranty or not based on that information, not because they can "see" something the dealer tech can't. Also there is not an active flash counter on the PCM.Iave not done a tune on one but do have a customer that used a Hypertech max Energy to turn of AFM. I see no reason his warranty should be voided because of this. I'm sure there are many of these cars that are abused way more than his that have a stock tune. IMHO if you are abusing your car with or without a tune you should loose your power train warranty. You know you have to pay to play, right?

axis 11-06-2009 12:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GaryTucker (Post 1136091)
I also beg to differ...it isn't what the tech can see at the dealership...it is what GM can see when the dealership is REQUIRED to send the computer upload to them. My guess is that there is alot more going on "behind the scenes" that the techs can't even see. When you have a powertrain failure...it seems that GM is requiring an upload on nearly every one that happens. If GM couldn't see anything more than the techs...the really wouldn't need this as a screenshot printout would suffice.

Can you show me where GM REQUIRES anything, before drivetrain warranty work can be done? The only bulletin that i've seen, addressing this issue, says they are required ONLY if the dealer wishes to document the case which I assume means they want to deny warranty work. Now if something else has come out, i'd like to see it.

Corporate Bulletin Number 08-06-04-033 is currently available in SI.

Identifying Aftermarket Engine Calibrations 2.0L, 2.2L, 2.4L, 2.8L, 2.9L, 3.0L, 3.1L, 3.2L, 3.4L,
3.5L, 3.6L, 3.8L, 3.9L, 4.2L, 4.3L, 4.4L, 4.6L, 4.8L, 5.0L, 5.3L, 5.7L, 6.0L, 6.2L, 7.0L, 7.4L, 8.1L
Gas Powered Engines Only

Models: 20062009 GM Passenger Cars and Light Duty Trucks
20062009 HUMMER H2, H3
Excluding Pontiac Vibe, G8, Chevrolet Aveo, All Saturn and Saab Models

Important: This bulletin applies to Gas Powered Engines ONLY. For Diesel Powered Engines, refer to Service Bulletin #08-06-04-006A.

If a suspicious hard part failure is observed in the engine, transmission, transfer case or driveline, perform the calibration verification described to determine if a non-GM issued engine calibration is installed. Non-GM issued engine calibrations subject driveline components to stresses different than the calibrations which these components were validated to. Repairs to transmission, transfer case and/or other driveline components where a non-GM engine calibration has been verified are not covered under the terms of the New Vehicle Warranty.

Instructions for Confirming Calibration Verification Number (CVN):

1. Go to TIS2WEB
2. Select "Calibration Information (SPS Info)"
3. Enter VIN
4. Select "Get Cal ID"
5. Select "ECM Engine Control Module"
6. Select "Next"
7. Select "Complete History"
8. Print
9. Take the printout to the vehicle along with the Tech 2
10. Plug in the Tech 2
11. Go to diagnostics and build the vehicle
12. Select "Powertrain"
13. Select "Engine"
14. *Select "Engine Control Module" or "PCM"
15. *Select "Module ID Information" or "I/M Information System" if module ID information selection is not available.
16. *If "I/M information System" was selected in step 15, it may be necessary to select "Vehicle Information" in order to display the calibration information.
17. Compare the calibration ID and Calibration Verification Numbers (CVN) to the Calibration Verification Numbers (CVN) on the printout.

* Steps may vary by controller.

Although the part numbers will be the same for each, it's the CVN that will determine if the calibration is GM issued. If ALL of the CVN's are EXACTLY the same, the calibration is GM issued.

If the part numbers match and ANY CVN's DO NOT match the printout, it is likely that a non-GM certified calibration has been installed.

If the CVN information is displayed as "N/A", it will be necessary to contact the TCSC to obtain the CVN information.

If a non-GM calibration is found to be in the ECM (CVN's on the Tech 2 do not match TIS printout) - In order to document the case a CLEAR digital picture should be taken of the Tech 2 screen showing the VIN and the CVN's that do not match the TIS2WEB printout. The picture, VIN and reason the vehicle is currently in for service should be emailed to JAY.DANKOVICH@GM.COM and STEVEN.R. BRIDSON@GM.COM for verification. Please copy your GM District Service Manager (DVM) on the e-mail. GM will verify if the CVN's are not GM issued and respond via e-mail within 72 hours.

So if everyone can agree that the flash counter is disabled and if putting the stock tune back in wipes all traces of the "tune", then it's safe to say they can't see it at the dealership. It appears as though you don't have to send the ECU in, just the CVN's, so how is GM suppose to see anything from a report that the dealer can't see?

toehead93 11-06-2009 08:47 AM

Now that makes sense. If a tuned car goes in for a broken transmission the CVN will not match. GM then wants to see the data to determine what was tuned. If you only tuned out AFM or adjusted the CEL for your long tube headers and left all torque management, etc the same as stock there is no reason GM can deny your warranty. They just want to know if you tuned out the safety factors for the drivetrain.

Davis 11-06-2009 10:01 AM

Lets muddy the waters even more... :facepalm:

Let say I have minor mods and I want to get a dyno tune. I take it to my favorite tuner and the results are minimal. I decide that the +6 hp is not worth risking my warranty and have the stock tune put back on right then and there.
Following the logic of some of the posters, I'm screwed. My warranty is now void! Really???

GaryTucker 11-06-2009 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by axis (Post 1139783)
Can you show me where GM REQUIRES anything, before drivetrain warranty work can be done? The only bulletin that i've seen, addressing this issue, says they are required ONLY if the dealer wishes to document the case which I assume means they want to deny warranty work. Now if something else has come out, i'd like to see it.

Corporate Bulletin Number 08-06-04-033 is currently available in SI.

Identifying Aftermarket Engine Calibrations 2.0L, 2.2L, 2.4L, 2.8L, 2.9L, 3.0L, 3.1L, 3.2L, 3.4L,
3.5L, 3.6L, 3.8L, 3.9L, 4.2L, 4.3L, 4.4L, 4.6L, 4.8L, 5.0L, 5.3L, 5.7L, 6.0L, 6.2L, 7.0L, 7.4L, 8.1L
Gas Powered Engines Only

Models: 20062009 GM Passenger Cars and Light Duty Trucks
20062009 HUMMER H2, H3
Excluding Pontiac Vibe, G8, Chevrolet Aveo, All Saturn and Saab Models

Important: This bulletin applies to Gas Powered Engines ONLY. For Diesel Powered Engines, refer to Service Bulletin #08-06-04-006A.

If a suspicious hard part failure is observed in the engine, transmission, transfer case or driveline, perform the calibration verification described to determine if a non-GM issued engine calibration is installed. Non-GM issued engine calibrations subject driveline components to stresses different than the calibrations which these components were validated to. Repairs to transmission, transfer case and/or other driveline components where a non-GM engine calibration has been verified are not covered under the terms of the New Vehicle Warranty.

Instructions for Confirming Calibration Verification Number (CVN):

1. Go to TIS2WEB
2. Select "Calibration Information (SPS Info)"
3. Enter VIN
4. Select "Get Cal ID"
5. Select "ECM Engine Control Module"
6. Select "Next"
7. Select "Complete History"
8. Print
9. Take the printout to the vehicle along with the Tech 2
10. Plug in the Tech 2
11. Go to diagnostics and build the vehicle
12. Select "Powertrain"
13. Select "Engine"
14. *Select "Engine Control Module" or "PCM"
15. *Select "Module ID Information" or "I/M Information System" if module ID information selection is not available.
16. *If "I/M information System" was selected in step 15, it may be necessary to select "Vehicle Information" in order to display the calibration information.
17. Compare the calibration ID and Calibration Verification Numbers (CVN) to the Calibration Verification Numbers (CVN) on the printout.

* Steps may vary by controller.

Although the part numbers will be the same for each, it's the CVN that will determine if the calibration is GM issued. If ALL of the CVN's are EXACTLY the same, the calibration is GM issued.

If the part numbers match and ANY CVN's DO NOT match the printout, it is likely that a non-GM certified calibration has been installed.

If the CVN information is displayed as "N/A", it will be necessary to contact the TCSC to obtain the CVN information.

If a non-GM calibration is found to be in the ECM (CVN's on the Tech 2 do not match TIS printout) - In order to document the case a CLEAR digital picture should be taken of the Tech 2 screen showing the VIN and the CVN's that do not match the TIS2WEB printout. The picture, VIN and reason the vehicle is currently in for service should be emailed to JAY.DANKOVICH@GM.COM and STEVEN.R. BRIDSON@GM.COM for verification. Please copy your GM District Service Manager (DVM) on the e-mail. GM will verify if the CVN's are not GM issued and respond via e-mail within 72 hours.

So if everyone can agree that the flash counter is disabled and if putting the stock tune back in wipes all traces of the "tune", then it's safe to say they can't see it at the dealership. It appears as though you don't have to send the ECU in, just the CVN's, so how is GM suppose to see anything from a report that the dealer can't see?

I'm guessing it depends on the situation and the dealer...but really, will you know that you've got the right dealer at the right time when you take in your car. GM is cracking down on warranty fraud as it has increased as dealers have struggled to make ends meet during these lean times. If a customer comes in with "xxx" problem and I can turn it from a $100 bill to GM into a $1000 bill with GM I can pay my bills. This is what has driven GM to ask for verification.

When I was a tech, I found that it was safer to document everything because you never knew when you were going to be the "lucky" one to get to answer questions on an audit from the regional service person. If you couldn't prove your situation...guess what...the dealer ate it. It's much like that now, GM may require the dealer to call in for approval for certain repairs...and that approval usually requires screen shots.

We had this happen in the early days of the LS-1 in the F-Body...remember how they were bending pushrods? We had to document the hell out of those engine replacements as the cost to GM was pretty extreme.

I'm not trying to say that GM is looking at EVERY repair...but it truly is a luck of the draw and I don't know that I'd want to play those odds. Usually at the point you find out you are denied, they are pretty far into whatever they are looking at and you are stuck with fix it there on your dime or pick up your car in boxes, pay tear down time and go somewhere else.

GaryTucker 11-06-2009 01:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Davis (Post 1140480)
Lets muddy the waters even more... :facepalm:

Let say I have minor mods and I want to get a dyno tune. I take it to my favorite tuner and the results are minimal. I decide that the +6 hp is not worth risking my warranty and have the stock tune put back on right then and there.
Following the logic of some of the posters, I'm screwed. My warranty is now void! Really???

Potentially.

No one can say 100% for sure. That is the issue here. We have tuners claiming GM can't tell you've untuned your car and others, like myself, that believe that there are probably some things that the tuners may not be able to see. No one has proven anything either way...no matter what they tell you. It comes down to the fact of whether you've got the money to gamble on losing your powertrain warranty. If you don't...then don't mess with mods.

Partick 11-06-2009 01:56 PM

This has been beat to death and back. The problem I see is people who REALLY don't know are injecting opinion that only serves to confuse. I gotta believe the reputable tuners have a pretty good idea whats going on but the bottom line is if you're worried or can't pay for a rejected warranty repair DON'T TUNE!

The service manager at my dealer said a CAI would'nt void the powertrain warranty and neither would a cat back exhaust and those two mods made mine run a lot better so stick with whats safe and enjoy the ride!!!!!!!!!

Number 3 11-06-2009 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Camarorss350 (Post 1135980)
Its funny that doing something good for your car can void your warranty. Once a tune is correctly set the motor runs more efficiently with less chance of a problem. Ig GM was smart they would introduce a tuning service...

But whatever it just sucks... and im just venting...:mad0233::seesaw:

I give up.................I've tried to teach you guys, but there is nobody selling tunes that gives more HP without affecting durability. There isn't anyone that can give you more FE without sacrificing the performance you already have.

GM spends thousands and thousands of hours in the lab, on the dyno and in the car providing your Camaro with the best overall performance that is reliable, fuel efficient, emissions compliant and DURABLE.

There isn't a tune out there that is better for your car. They just may make the tradeoffs that suit your prefference.

And I won't go into the Fraud aspects of putting the OEM parts back on........:facepalm:


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