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-   -   Not Good Boys... (http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6693)

Congoman775 09-10-2008 12:00 AM

Not Good Boys...
 
A buddy and i test drove the new pontiac G8 today, and let me tell you this car was a winner on so many levels... but one level stood out in a negative manor, and was so drastic that it stopped either of us from wanting the car. At least with the Auto.

The Auto/manual shift system in the car lagged to the point that would make you uncertain if you had shifted hard enough, wondering if the computer read it and you should do it again.

The Shifts that were made in the 'Manual' mode were lagged what felt like seconds, realistically it was probaly just over a second or two. But a car travels a long time in a second or two.

i wasnt expecting lighting fast shifts like that in a Ferrari, but this almost made the whole 'manual' concept irrelevant. It made you feel even more detached from the car than you did before.

Now the real scary thing about this: this is the same 'TAPshift' system we're getting in the Camaro, According to the man at the dealership i talked to.

now im having trouble confirming this to be true, but it seems like it would be true. New systems, same platform, the G8 and Camaro are alot alike in alot of ways... just makes sense.

:iono:

SS4EVER 09-10-2008 12:04 AM

Get a manual... Problem solved... J/K Haven't driven the G8. I love the car but it only being available in a auto except for the G8 GXP that is to come out was a major turn-off for me personally.

Mr. Wyndham 09-10-2008 12:20 AM

Did you test; the V6, or the V8? Cause they were two different transmissions....

And keep in mind they can recalibrate the transmission from car to car. They 'fixed' it in the Corvette from 07 to 08, which produced a noticeable response increase according to the 'Vette guys. And they're also playing with shift response in the Camaro to drop the V6 0-60 from 6.1 to 5.9. :iono:

Congoman775 09-10-2008 12:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dragoneye (Post 127964)
Did you test; the V6, or the V8? Cause they were two different transmissions....

And keep in mind they can recalibrate the transmission from car to car. They 'fixed' it in the Corvette from 07 to 08, which produced a noticeable response increase according to the 'Vette guys. And they're also playing with shift response in the Camaro to drop the V6 0-60 from 6.1 to 5.9. :iono:

I test drove the V8, im hoping they recalibrate something to rectify this. If you were the one that was driving you'd be saying the same thing.

TAG UR IT 09-10-2008 03:54 AM

I wanted to test drive the G8 GT and as a few know...that car REALLY impressed me on looks, fit, and finish alone. I didn't drive it cause I was afraid I wouldn't have returned it to the dealership!

But, to fix that problem, BUY A MANUAL!!! Or don't tap shift. But buy a manual....hehe ....much better anyway.

spd98 09-10-2008 07:14 AM

The gripes about the manumatic modes are well known. The bottom line is if you want to shift your own gears get a manual. It does wake up considerably with a tune but really. Buying an auto and hand shifting it on a regular basis is just silly.

Shifty 6 09-10-2008 09:27 AM

I drove the G8 with the V8 in it and I don't recall the shifts being that bad. I was very impressed with the fit and finish. I am hoping the Camaro gets the leather from the same supplier. The center console was cheap but overall the car was great. Keep in mind this is the 4 door sedan, it shouldn't have lighting quick shifts for the family. I would guess the target audience is a little different. I guess I'm saying I think the shifting will be much better in the Camaro. I know mine will be.....I'm getting the stick.

DGthe3 09-10-2008 09:50 AM

Its control over an automatic transmission. Nothing more, nothing less. The shifts will still feel like like an automatic no matter what. If you want your car to shift like a manual, you need to get a manual. Tap shift and the like are for having a bit more fun with an automatic not to replace a manual.

MerF 09-10-2008 09:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spd98 (Post 128056)
The gripes about the manumatic modes are well known. The bottom line is if you want to shift your own gears get a manual. It does wake up considerably with a tune but really. Buying an auto and hand shifting it on a regular basis is just silly.

I agree 100% and always have. Only the exotics and real race cars use tap-shifting that actually matters.

SS4EVER 09-10-2008 10:10 AM

Yeah. Unless the transmission in a G8, was a dual-clutch transmission, like what I believed are used in the Audi/VW's DSG/Triptronic transmission, or from BMW's or Mercedes, those transmissions have a much better feeling when up-shifting/down-shifting.

The transmission on the G8 is still basically just an "automatic transmission" with a computer controlled manual shifting system. I've driven them on a few cars, G6 Coupe, Lincoln LS V8, Lincoln MKS etc and my car's a stick and there's no comparison.

So yeah I'm sure when the Hydramatic "auto" comes over to the Camaro it'll be more refined...

radz28 09-10-2008 10:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SS4EVER (Post 128101)
Yeah. Unless the transmission in a G8, was a dual-clutch transmission, like what I believed are used in the Audi/VW's DSG/Triptronic transmission, or from BMW's or Mercedes, those transmissions have a much better feeling when up-shifting/down-shifting.

The transmission on the G8 is still basically just an "automatic transmission" with a computer controlled manual shifting system. I've driven them on a few cars, G6 Coupe, Lincoln LS V8, Lincoln MKS etc and my car's a stick and there's no comparison.

So yeah I'm sure when the Hydramatic "auto" comes over to the Camaro it'll be more refined...

+1 Didn't an engineer, in the NBC special, comment on calibrating the transmission in the V8 car? I could've swore I read that they're going to be calibrating the TapShift to be able to hold that gear at redline. Hmmm... now I have to find it.

Congoman775 09-10-2008 10:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spd98 (Post 128056)
The gripes about the manumatic modes are well known. The bottom line is if you want to shift your own gears get a manual. It does wake up considerably with a tune but really. Buying an auto and hand shifting it on a regular basis is just silly.

What is silly is putting something in a car that doesnt work.

why put that there if it is ineffective??

DGthe3 09-10-2008 10:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Congoman775 (Post 128125)
What is silly is putting something in a car that doesnt work.

why put that there if it is ineffective??

It does work, its just not as quick as you would like. But when you tell it to shift it does shift. Therefore it works.

stovt001 09-10-2008 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spd98 (Post 128056)
The gripes about the manumatic modes are well known. The bottom line is if you want to shift your own gears get a manual. It does wake up considerably with a tune but really. Buying an auto and hand shifting it on a regular basis is just silly.

Well since I have a bad knee, taking the clutch peddle out of the equation but still being able to manually shift is appealing. However I know the limitations of a simple automatic with a simple manual shift mode. I'm still hoping we see a nice DCT by the time I buy. Otherwise I'll be getting the manual and keeping advil in the car for my leg on long drives.

Congoman775 09-10-2008 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DGthe3 (Post 128129)
It does work, its just not as quick as you would like. But when you tell it to shift it does shift. Therefore it works.

it works in the same way a map pined to the dash works as a Nav system.

Hylton 09-10-2008 12:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DGthe3 (Post 128129)
It does work, its just not as quick as you would like. But when you tell it to shift it does shift. Therefore it works.

That's just settling imo. If you are going to offer something to an enthuisiast community like ours, make it right or get rid of it. Otherwise it's just a gimmick. Tap shifting when set-up correctly is one of the best things a car can have as far as control is concerned. Just ask any Formula 1 driver. Has anyone here driven an automatic Porsche with a Tiptronic?

Congoman775 09-10-2008 12:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hylton (Post 128157)
That's just settling imo. If you are going to offer something to an enthuisiast community like ours, make it right or get rid of it. Otherwise it's just a gimmick. Tap shifting when set-up correctly is one of the best things a car can have as far as control is concerned. Just ask any Formula 1 driver. Has anyone here driven an automatic Porsche with a Tiptronic?

my dad has a 911 4S with tiptronic, and i LOVE driving that car. not only is it faster than a manual, but it just feels cleaner, the car runs smoother, and if your in traffic, the car does the work for you.

one of the reasons im getting on the TapShift case is because if its not a good functional tool , why is it in the car?

DGthe3 09-10-2008 12:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Congoman775 (Post 128156)
it works in the same way a map pined to the dash works as a Nav system.

Yes. I prefer paper maps anyway ;)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hylton (Post 128157)
That's just settling imo. If you are going to offer something to an enthuisiast community like ours, make it right or get rid of it. Otherwise it's just a gimmick. Tap shifting when set-up correctly is one of the best things a car can have as far as control is concerned. Just ask any Formula 1 driver. Has anyone here driven an automatic Porsche with a Tiptronic?

That system is an automated manual. This is a automatic with a manual mode. Completely different. A automated manual is for pure performance. This is a way to give you more control over an automatic -but its still an automatic at heart. Much like AWD vs 4wd. On the surface they are similar but for going all out there is no comparison between the two.

Congoman775 09-10-2008 12:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DGthe3 (Post 128170)
Yes. I prefer paper maps anyway ;)


That system is an automated manual. This is a automatic with a manual mode. Completely different. A automated manual is for pure performance. This is a way to give you more control over an automatic -but its still an automatic at heart. Much like AWD vs 4wd. On the surface they are similar but for going all out there is no comparison between the two.

its not all that impressive.


how is the lag time on a corvette? i cant imagine someone driving a performance car settling.

Hylton 09-10-2008 12:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DGthe3 (Post 128170)
Yes. I prefer paper maps anyway ;)


That system is an automated manual. This is a automatic with a manual mode. Completely different. A automated manual is for pure performance. This is a way to give you more control over an automatic -but its still an automatic at heart. Much like AWD vs 4wd. On the surface they are similar but for going all out there is no comparison between the two.

Yes, it is similar in design as the M3 but my point is about it's execution. We are talking about an electrical signal which can easily trigger the computer to up or downshift the tranny at the blink of an eye. We need this thing to change when WE the enthusiast want the tranny to change gears, not when some engineer at GM thinks it should be changing.

It should work the same way as a manual in the sense that if someone upshifts too early, the motor bogs (thanks skipshift in my '01) or if someone downshifts too early, the rear tires lock up.

Jamestwilliams 09-10-2008 01:08 PM

It sounds like you guys want the F1 style paddle shifters that have an automatically actuated clutch. Do you have any idea how much that would add to the cost of the car?

Besides if you can live with being 1-2 10ths slower to sixty you can get a real manual transmission. I know I sure can, besides those that are actually bothered by bing beat by an auto can always get performance upgrades.

Hylton 09-10-2008 01:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jamestwilliams (Post 128197)
It sounds like you guys want the F1 style paddle shifters that have an automatically actuated clutch. Do you have any idea how much that would add to the cost of the car?

Besides if you can live with being 1-2 10ths slower to sixty you can get a real manual transmission. I know I sure can, besides those that are actually bothered by bing beat by an auto can always get performance upgrades.

Nobody is asking for a manual transmission (which a Porsche, M3 and F1 has). Just get the computer to upshift or downshift the auto tranny at the point we want. Pretty simple really.

You might beat me with the stick in a drag race but i'd serve you up on a plate in auto-X with a good paddle shift set-up.

Jamestwilliams 09-10-2008 01:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hylton (Post 128207)
Nobody is asking for a manual transmission (which a Porsche, M3 and F1 has). Just get the computer to upshift or downshift the auto tranny at the point we want. Pretty simple really.

You might beat me with the stick in a drag race but i'd serve you up on a plate in auto-X with a good paddle shift set-up.

A paddle with a torque converter is never going to be as crisp as you seem to want, besides it would be fun try at auto cross, and by the way not a big fan of drag racing. There might be an aftermarket for the manual trannies to give them better shifts possibly a reprogram for the computer aswell who knows.
Ps. I'd race you anytime, it would be fun to see how this turns out in the real world. By the way you'd probably kick my ass in either car doesn't mean it wouldn't be fun.

Congoman775 09-10-2008 02:02 PM

The auto/paddles are made to the feeling of a manual in an automatic car.

IMHO it fails to deliver on that, because its not .1 or .2 seconds, its well over a full second.

This may mean i will have to get a manual, but isnt that kind of sad to think about? if you dont want to SETTLE, you have to get a completely different tranny?

Hylton 09-10-2008 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jamestwilliams (Post 128213)
A paddle with a torque converter is never going to be as crisp as you seem to want, besides it would be fun try at auto cross, and by the way not a big fan of drag racing. There might be an aftermarket for the manual trannies to give them better shifts possibly a reprogram for the computer aswell who knows.
Ps. I'd race you anytime, it would be fun to see how this turns out in the real world. By the way you'd probably kick my ass in either car doesn't mean it wouldn't be fun.

Race you around the track at Indy on the 21st.....:thumbup:


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