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-   -   Alignment Help Thread (http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=71994)

Hotchkis 03-19-2010 01:12 PM

Alignment Help Thread
 
We are excited to see that many Camaro5 enthusiasts have now installed performance coil springs and handling packages.

We've noticed quite a few threads with questions about height and alignment for our products and others. We've put together a list of our testing numbers and experiences in order to help answer some of the more commonly asked questions. We are using numbers and images from our R&D and testing on customer cars. Due to the numerous Camaros we have modified and tested, we have built a nice data base of chassis variances and build tolerances. The bottom line is, the car is built with very tight tolerances. When compared to the earlier Camaros, the 5th gen is in a whole new league for fit and finish.

Perhaps some of the other shops and vendors can post their alignment advice as well, and this thread can be useful when speaking with alignment shops and dealerships. We want you to have the best experience possible with Hotchkis, from install to racetrack. If you find you have a question that isn't answered above, PM or call us. We want your input.



Our quick facts:

With stock and our sport coils we have seen minute ride height variances, with most cars at or under 1/16 and only one with a corner measurement variance of 1/8

Even after 1000s of punishing street and track miles we have not seen our sport coils settle. We design our coil springs to be low stressed and spec high tensile excellent quality steel to eliminate any possibility of material fatigue. Our coils are preset during manufacturing, compressed to coil bind to ensure proper load height, shot peened to relieve material stress and most important, are made in the USA.

Below is a picture of the slotted strut mount standard on all Camaros. A good amount of camber adjustment is available without grinding or alignment hole modifications.

http://photos-f.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos..._4012113_n.jpg

So far we have not found it necessary to grind out any alignment holes to achieve a proper street/track performance alignment.

Alignment specs for the 2010 Camaro SS:

STOCK SPECIFICATIONS-STOCK SPRINGS

FRONT:

CAMBER: 0 to -1.6

CASTER 6.70 - 7.10

TOE: 0 TO 1/8 TOTAL TOE IN

REAR:

CAMBER: 0 to -1.0

TOE: 0 TO 1/8 TOTAL TOE IN


MEASUREMENT MINIMUMS & MAXIMUMS FOR HOTCHKIS SPORT COIL EQUIPPED VEHICLES

NOTE
These are not our recommended alignment specs. They represent the alignment range possible with our sport coils installed.

Note that increased neg. camber of the lowered car is beneficial to performance handling.


FRONT:

CAMBER: -0.4 to -2.6

REAR:

CAMBER: -0.7 to -1.8


HOTCHKIS PERFORMANCE STREET SETUP

FRONT:

CAMBER: -1 to -1.4

CASTER 7.00 - 7.50

TOE: 1/16 TOTAL TOE IN

REAR:

CAMBER: -0.8

TOE: 1/16 to 1/8 TOTAL TOE IN


HOTCHKIS TRACK DAY/STREET SETUP

FRONT:

CAMBER: -2.0 to - 2.5

CASTER 7.00 - 7.50

TOE: 0 to 1/16 TOTAL TOE IN

REAR:

CAMBER: -1.0 to - 1.25

TOE: 1/16 to 1/8 TOTAL TOE IN


We determined our recommended alignment settings through street and track testing using the stock Pirelli tires. These settings are a great place to start, offering acceptable tire wear and grip in a variety of performance driving conditions. Driving styles, track condition, tire selection, tire pressure and most importantly tire temperatures across the face of the tire are the determining factors of final alignment settings.

Info@PeddersUSA.com 03-19-2010 03:42 PM

Pedders Camaro/G8 Bushing Timing Tech Sheet.pdf
Pedders Camaro/G8 Alignment Tech Sheet.pdf

We have based our align specs for street and track based on professional drivers using telemetry equipment, tire temp monitoring, and recommendations from 3 professional drivers, including Paul Tracy.

The following Aggressive Street settings are recommended based on an average drop of 1 inch:

Front:

Camber to -1.0 degrees
caster 7.4 to 7.8 degrees (requires adding caster Pedders Caster eccentrics to get into this range of caster, which is very benificial
Toe: .1 degrees toe out each wheel.

This amount of toe out will reduce tire scrub and understeer, and will not add to tire wear.

Rear

Camber to -.5 degrees. Reducing the camber to this level will reduce understeer. With a 1 inch drop or lower, you cannot obtain this number without Pedders rear camber eccentrics

Toe to .05 degrees toe in each wheel.

For Aggressive Track

Now these settings are only for a Camaro with a Complete Pedders Track suspension Package. This setup with street performance tires can hit 1.38g's thru the turns, and have great tire temps all across. Paul Tracy said this setup was "PERFECT"

Front

Cambers to -2.4 degrees
Caster 7.5 to 8.0. Requires Pedders Caster eccentrics
Toe .25 degees toe out each wheel. (This setting should not be used for the street)

Rear
Camber -1.2 degrees, Required Pedders rear eccentrics
Toe .05 toe in each wheel.

Here is a video of the Pedders Camaro with these settings, driven by Paul Tracy. Notice the Pedders Camaro being chased by a ZR1, which could not go the same line as the Pedders Camaro.


Here is a video from Chris Fessler, our dealer and sponsor:
http://vimeo.com/8678971

Any questions just ask

thanks
mike
dms

speedster 03-19-2010 03:48 PM

Thanks Guys..

This stuff is great !!! :thumbsup:

eblake98 03-20-2010 05:30 AM

Which settings?
 
Street Alignment:
Front:
Camber: -1 to -1.25
Toe: 1/16 Total TOE IN

Rear:
Camber: -1 to -1.25
Toe: 3/16 to Total TOE IN



Thanks,
Mark Rossetti
Brand Manager

Hotchkis Sport Suspension
562-907-7757 xt 225
Fax : 562-907-7765


Do I use the above or what what was just posted? Also were the bump stops trimmed?


Mr Twisty 03-20-2010 09:49 AM

sticky! Great info :thumbsup:

kga10734 03-20-2010 10:11 AM

I vote STICKY this thread, that way others don't have to go hunt this info down like I did. My alignment guy was able to get both my front and rear camber to -1.0 degrees without any suspension modifications or special bolts, and I have a 2 1/8" drop on front and 2" drop on the rear.

Info@PeddersUSA.com 03-20-2010 07:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kga10734 (Post 1613435)
I vote STICKY this thread, that way others don't have to go hunt this info down like I did. My alignment guy was able to get both my front and rear camber to -1.0 degrees without any suspension modifications or special bolts, and I have a 2 1/8" drop on front and 2" drop on the rear.

If you are -1.0 degrees front and rear, you are not set up for max abilities.

Having the ability to add 1 to 1.25 degrees positive caster is a big deal. Having the rear cambers to complement the front cambers is again a big deal. But if you are happy with your setup, that is a big deal as well.

thanks
mike
dms

kga10734 03-20-2010 07:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dms (Post 1614962)
If you are -1.0 degrees front and rear, you are not set up for max abilities.

Having the ability to add 1 to 1.25 degrees positive caster is a big deal. Having the rear cambers to complement the front cambers is again a big deal. But if you are happy with your setup, that is a big deal as well.

thanks
mike
dms

He was able to get my front Caster set to around 7.5 to 7.7 if I remember correctly. I'm going to drive it like this for a while and see how things work out. Then I'll take it back down and get everything checked again in a few months.

1BadaSS 03-25-2010 11:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kga10734 (Post 1615024)
He was able to get my front Caster set to around 7.5 to 7.7 if I remember correctly. I'm going to drive it like this for a while and see how things work out. Then I'll take it back down and get everything checked again in a few months.

Where did you get yours aligned at?

PfadtRacing 03-26-2010 12:11 PM

Hey everyone! This is a great idea to get a thread together with everyone's recommendations. Below is an image of a downloadable PDF on our website, with our recommendations for various alignment settings according to end-use. Please let us know if you have any questions at all!

Here is a link to the PDF: Alignment Settings

http://www.pfadtracing.com/photos/da...alignment2.jpg

caverman 04-16-2010 11:00 AM

Ok...I have a question on the alignment. I have a set of Hotchkis springs on the way and should be installing them shortly after I get them. I don't know all that much about Camber/Caster/Toe etc. so bare with my wording if it's not correct.

This is my daily driver and I won't really be going to the track.....maybe once or twice if at all. I would like it to handle nicely but not necessarily at the cost of eating up my tires prematurely.

If I remember reading correctly others have said that a -.05 was the most they could get out of the way the factory had the car setup. Looking at everyones recommendation for a Performance Street setup you are recommending more than that.

So, should I just have them set my alignment to the factory settings and/or have them get as close to the Peformance Street settings as possible or is there some other settings you would recommned for someone in my driving situation?

Info@PeddersUSA.com 04-16-2010 01:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by caverman (Post 1728445)
Ok...I have a question on the alignment. I have a set of Hotchkis springs on the way and should be installing them shortly after I get them. I don't know all that much about Camber/Caster/Toe etc. so bare with my wording if it's not correct.

This is my daily driver and I won't really be going to the track.....maybe once or twice if at all. I would like it to handle nicely but not necessarily at the cost of eating up my tires prematurely.

If I remember reading correctly others have said that a -.05 was the most they could get out of the way the factory had the car setup. Looking at everyones recommendation for a Performance Street setup you are recommending more than that.

So, should I just have them set my alignment to the factory settings and/or have them get as close to the Peformance Street settings as possible or is there some other settings you would recommned for someone in my driving situation?

You have ample adjustability of from camber at any height

You currently do not have any caster adjustability. But caster can be increased and made adjustable with our Pedders front Adjuster kit

When dropping your rear, negative camber can significantly increase. Excess negative camber in the back end increases understeer. Thru telemetry, we have determined your vehicle will handle better at -.5 degrees rather than -1.0 degrees. I have yet to see a Camaro able to get to -.5 degrees camber at the rear with OE eccentrics. Do I think it is possible? Yes. There are potential tolerance issues that may allow one to be able to get this low. But that would be the exception, rather than the rule. Pedders Rear Alignment Kit

thanks,
mike
dms

caverman 04-16-2010 02:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dms (Post 1728985)
You have ample adjustability of from camber at any height

You currently do not have any caster adjustability. But caster can be increased and made adjustable with our Pedders front Adjuster kit

When dropping your rear, negative camber can significantly increase. Excess negative camber in the back end increases understeer. Thru telemetry, we have determined your vehicle will handle better at -.5 degrees rather than -1.0 degrees. I have yet to see a Camaro able to get to -.5 degrees camber at the rear with OE eccentrics. Do I think it is possible? Yes. There are potential tolerance issues that may allow one to be able to get this low. But that would be the exception, rather than the rule. Pedders Rear Alignment Kit

thanks,
mike
dms

Man.....don't really want to spend onther $200+ right now if I don't have to. What would your suggestion be if I didn't go with an alignment kit for now?

Info@PeddersUSA.com 04-16-2010 07:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by caverman (Post 1729173)
Man.....don't really want to spend onther $200+ right now if I don't have to. What would your suggestion be if I didn't go with an alignment kit for now?

I totally understand!

This is what I would do:

Front.
Camber to -1.0 each
toe to .1 degrees toe out each wheel

Rear
Camber, get the least amount of negative Camber as possible
Toe, toe in .05 degrees each wheel

Hope this helps and drive safe.

mike
dms

Scourage 04-16-2010 08:41 PM

I've been keeping an eye on the suggested settings with a 1" drop, but how does changing tread width effect things? Wider tires obviously :)

Info@PeddersUSA.com 04-16-2010 11:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scourage (Post 1730831)
I've been keeping an eye on the suggested settings with a 1" drop, but how does changing tread width effect things? Wider tires obviously :)

does not actually affect the alignment that much but it can change the way the car handles. I.E. a split configured tire might look great, but the handling is reduced as compaired to having a oversized tires front and rear being equal.

What tires/tire size were you thinking of?

mike
dms

Hotchkis 04-19-2010 10:35 AM

We have worked on quite a few 5th Gens at our R&D center here in California, as well as on-site at Willow Springs during several track tests. With our Hotchkis springs and OE alignment capabilities, the vehicle can adjust camber from -0.4 to -2.6 for the front and -0.7 to -1.8 for the rear. No need to buy a kit or anything like that. For your situation where tire wear is important on a street driven car, we suggest the following alignment specs:

Front:
Camber: -0.75 to -1
Toe: 1/16 total toe in

Rear:
Camber: -0.8
Toe: 3/16 total toe in

Hope this helps!

caverman 04-19-2010 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hotchkis (Post 1738661)
We have worked on quite a few 5th Gens at our R&D center here in California, as well as on-site at Willow Springs during several track tests. With our Hotchkis springs and OE alignment capabilities, the vehicle can adjust camber from -0.4 to -2.6 for the front and -0.7 to -1.8 for the rear. No need to buy a kit or anything like that. For your situation where tire wear is important on a street driven car, we suggest the following alignment specs:

Front:
Camber: -0.75 to -1
Toe: 1/16 total toe in

Rear:
Camber: -0.8
Toe: 3/16 total toe in

Hope this helps!

Thanks.....

I have another question for you. One of the Pedders guys suggested the following about loosing the bolts, driving around slowly, and then re-tighten before alignment. It definately sounds logical....should I do this for the Hotchkis springs as well. Also, I'm assuming I won't need to cut the bumpstops?

Quote:

The most important step in installing lowering coils is to time the OE rotational bushes to the new ride height. EVERY control arm bolt must be loose: front LCA, front radius arm, rear toe, trailing, inner lower... With the bolts loose drive the Camaro SLOWY around the lot and on to the alignment rack rails. With the weightbof the car on the wheels tighten all the bolts. The bushes are now timed to your new ride height. This means your second set of springs the bushes are now working with your new Peddes lowering coils.

Bruce@raymondsperformance 04-20-2010 11:40 AM

It realy doesn't matter with who or how you lower your car,Loosing the control arm pivot bolts and retightening them with the wieght on the tires should be done.This is called timing the bushings,if not done the ride can be slightly stiffer and will cause the bushings to fail premature.This applies to the factory rubber bushings.Most aftermarket bushings piviot by design unlike the factory bushings.

caverman 04-20-2010 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by raymo1 (Post 1743869)
It realy doesn't matter with who or how you lower your car,Loosing the control arm pivot bolts and retightening them with the wieght on the tires should be done.This is called timing the bushings,if not done the ride can be slightly stiffer and will cause the bushings to fail premature.This applies to the factory rubber bushings.Most aftermarket bushings piviot by design unlike the factory bushings.

Thanks....it makes sense to do this.

By chance does anyone have a pic of the Control Arm Pivot bolts and any of the other bolt locations that should be loosened before alignment? I'm going to have the Alignment guy do it but since I don't know 100% which bolts need to be loosened I would like to see a pic so that I have a clue as I watch what he losens.

Info@PeddersUSA.com 04-20-2010 03:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by caverman (Post 1744697)
Thanks....it makes sense to do this.

By chance does anyone have a pic of the Control Arm Pivot bolts and any of the other bolt locations that should be loosened before alignment? I'm going to have the Alignment guy do it but since I don't know 100% which bolts need to be loosened I would like to see a pic so that I have a clue as I watch what he losens.

With the exception of the cradle bushings, if there is a bushing on it, you should loosen it. The biggest culpret is the upper rear control arm bushing, which is, of course, the hardest to get to.

mike
dms

caverman 04-21-2010 10:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dms (Post 1744716)
With the exception of the cradle bushings, if there is a bushing on it, you should loosen it. The biggest culpret is the upper rear control arm bushing, which is, of course, the hardest to get to.

mike
dms

Ok....one more question on this. Does anyone know if the bolts need to be re-torqued to a specific number? Or...just have them get it as tight as they can and then re-check in a week or so?

Info@PeddersUSA.com 04-21-2010 10:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by caverman (Post 1751944)
Ok....one more question on this. Does anyone know if the bolts need to be re-torqued to a specific number? Or...just have them get it as tight as they can and then re-check in a week or so?

The predictable response will be all bolts need to be torqued to GM specs, and also review the 1 time bolt/nut policy by GM

mike
dms

caverman 04-21-2010 10:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dms (Post 1752075)
The predictable response will be all bolts need to be torqued to GM specs, and also review the 1 time bolt/nut policy by GM

mike
dms

Anyone know how I can find out what the GM torque specs should be on the different bolts?

Info@PeddersUSA.com 04-21-2010 10:52 PM

You need to confirm these torque measurements.



thanks
mike
dms


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