Quote:
Originally Posted by BWood
To me, the fact of the matter is that GM doesn't want anyone messin' with the PCM. We all know that. So, to beat up on Mike@Diablosport just doesn't make much sense to me. He's offering a service/software to make those of us who choose to go that route happy campers. Quite frankly, I don't really care one way or another what Mike claims can be detected or not. If you reflash, YOU are in comlplete violation of what you agreed to in regards to the warranty when you signed on the dotted line. Regardless whether you can "get away with it" or not! Would we be having the same conversation if we were talking about running 12 lbs. of boost along side a 200 shot of nitrous with stock internals? I think not. Doing any upgrade to a car that will clearly void the warranty is done at the wehicle owner's risk. Pay to play, people...Pay to play!
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by GaryTucker
And if these "pay to play" people were the only ones we were talking about we wouldn't be having this conversation. We also wouldn't need "stealth" or "invisible" tunes as all the users would realize the risk they are taking and accept total responsibility for their actions. The fact we have these options in programming indicates there is a faction of users that wish to "have their cake and eat it too" in the deception of GM or other manufacturers in warranty claims.
There have been questions about "launch control" and why GM would put it in if they "didn't want the cars modified and raced"...Doesn't matter what their reason was in putting it in...they have to warranty failures related to it as it is their own programming. On the other hand, they should in no way be forced to warranty anything that is modified by someone other than themselves. Just as the tuners don't want to warranty GM's hard components...GM shouldn't have to be responsible for anything even remotely caused by an aftermarket supplier.
If everyone was as sensible as BWood...then Mike wouldn't have to "get frustrated" with all the posts like this one that are popping up on nearly every manufacturer's website. It's going to be this way until the users of programming all come around to the realization that they aren't entitled to a powertrain warranty once they have tampered with factory settings (no matter how much better or reliable the new settings are). GM (and every other manufacturer) is in business to turn a profit...just like the tuners are...so they are going to protect their after-sale outlay of costs on the items they have sold. EVERY business does this. Those that say they don't consider it are lying...
|
Correct and correct. As an enthusiast, I can appreciate what these companies do and the products they offer and, yes, I also support options on these handheld tuners that restore the PCM calibrations to factory specs. Kind of like a boot disc for your PC and I applaud these companies for providing an easy option to do so. What I don't support is trying to hide it by deliberately writing code that eliminates all trace of the modification from the OEM's hardware. That is dishonest at the very least and encourages illegal behavior.
However, these companies are not the ones committing the theft from the OEMs. The consumer who uses their product for this purpose is. If you restore a tuned vehicle to factory calibration after a powertrain failure for the sole purpose of getting a warranty claim paid, if you are successful, you just committed a theft. It's no different than robbing the local gas station.
This is a constant game of cat and mouse OEMs with these companies. Yes...some of them are very clever hackers (most aren't), but GM's engineers are pretty clever too. They're paid to be clever because there's millions of dollars at stake and many dishonest people out there looking to get something for free they don't deserve.
These handheld tuner companies can't completely guarantee the OEM won't catch you with one of their "untraceable" PCM resets. If they could guarantee it, they would back it up with an unlimited warranty because it would be a license to print money. Why can't they? Because their engineers are no better than GM's and we are constantly improving our game too. Do things slip by from time to time? Without doubt. Will GM also be ahead of them a great deal of the time too? Also, without doubt.
Regarding the warranties, I have personally voided many powertrain warranties and refused to pay claims for engine failures by catching people with tunes who represented otherwise. One time I remember talking to a Corvette owner who modified the engine including an aggressive tune. Even looked under his hood as he told me about it and complemented him on what he had done. Later that day, I watched him blow it up on the drag strip.
Three days later, the same car showed up at a dealership sans all the performance mods with a fresh "untraceable" refresh to the PCM. Well...GM caught the reflash and denied the claim. The customer swore up and down the vehicle was never modified and threatened to come back with his lawyer. The dealership called me to meet the customer and his lawyer a few days later. When I saw it was the same car I saw blow up the prior weekend, I don't have to tell you how short the conversation was.
Did I void the whole warranty? No. Just the components that were modified and the associated systems. The rest of the warranty on the unmodified systems remained intact. I can also tell you of many times I have paid claims for honest enthusiasts that owned up to modifications, but had unrelated failures. Recently, a 2010 Camaro owner who had a dealer improperly void his warranty for a major engine failure when the only modification was a cat back exhaust and a CAI. These mods were totally unrelated to the failure and couldn't possibly have caused it. The owner was honest with me, didn't try to hide anything and was upfront about his mods. It was easy to help him.
Bottom line....be honest. Most of the people who work for the OEMs (and most dealer people) love cars and some of us are enthusiasts just like you. It's in our interest to make and keep you happy, but we can't be taken advantage of either. I will bend over backwards looking to help a customer who is honest with me. But if I catch someone lying or trying to take advantage, I'm done....
