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Old 08-09-2008, 09:28 PM   #351
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Govt regulations, No I don't think so,. GM is just running out of money thus can't invest in lightweight materials. but seriously that's a shot in the foot when you consider performance. I may be considering waiting upcoming camaros maybe the Z28 will be at least 3,500 lbs. thus increasing performance with out adding a hole lot of extras to increase HP.

A pure guess
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Old 08-09-2008, 10:14 PM   #352
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My 2001 Z28 weighs about 3500 pounds. It has plastic fenders, a fiberglass hood, and tiny by modern standard 16" wheels. It also has undersized brakes that warp yearly, a rear end made of glass, the chassis rigidity of a licorice whip, and would not be able to pass modern crash standards.

Car have been getting heavier across the board, this is not a GM-specific problem no matter how many times you say "I don't think so". I spent 5 minutes on Google and found that even a Honda Civic is about 200-300 pounds heavier than it was 8 years ago. That is a gain of approximately 10% which coincidentally is about the same percentage weight gain of the new Camaro over the previous model. When you consider the improvements in structural integrity, power and durability and the fact that this car will cost about the same as an '02 model in inflation-adjusted dollars, it is completely unrealistic to think that there isn't a price to be paid somewhere. you can basically pay for it in dollars, or in pounds. You and I may be gladly willing to pay more for a lighter car but the marketplace as a whole is not. This car can succeed weighing 300 pounds more than a comparable Mustang but if it costs $5000 more it will most certainly not.

It has all been discussed as nauseum and nobody is happy about the weight. But it is what it is and it's either time to accept it, or time to move on.

Last edited by Craig; 08-09-2008 at 10:33 PM.
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Old 08-10-2008, 12:02 AM   #353
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What the hey... they can have a new advertising campaign where they compare the Mustang and Camaro using weigh scales and promote that the new Camaro is a better value because it costs less per pound than the Mustang!
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Old 08-10-2008, 11:44 AM   #354
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Caliman93230 View Post
Govt regulations, No I don't think so,. GM is just running out of money thus can't invest in lightweight materials. but seriously that's a shot in the foot when you consider performance. I may be considering waiting upcoming camaros maybe the Z28 will be at least 3,500 lbs. thus increasing performance with out adding a hole lot of extras to increase HP.

A pure guess
My main concern is price, if GM uses more exotic materials to make the car lighter the price will go up. Do you expect GM to absorb the price of these lighter materials even if they were rolling in the money? I don't think so. If you want a lighter vehicle GM has the perfect vehicle for you, the Corvette. I know for a fact if the Camaro pushes $40k I am going to think twice about buying it, and so will many other people.

Plus I wouldn't give up the safety features this car offers, if I get into a crash I want to make sure I walk away. That is always more important to me than a slightly faster car. Yea I know, everyone here is the best driver in the world. They never had, and never will be in an accident so they don't need these "Nanny" features.

I respect that you want a lighter car, but the vast majority of Camaro buyers want a cheaper, and safer Camaro. Myself included.
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Old 08-10-2008, 10:26 PM   #355
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Awesome View Post
Camaro Design Mantra:

a. Good Looking
b. Low Price
c. Lightweight
d. Quality Construction

(Pick any 3)
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Originally Posted by tony19118 View Post
i like that. very good point

Hardly. B-D has nothing to do with whether it looks good or not.

I've always been a huge fan of Camaros. 69s (natch) and the 76-78s in particular. I wasn't that suprised that this was coming back and really liked the first pics and specs around it, but like everyone else, it's a massively failed attempt at what's supposed to be a mid-tier sports car. Would I have considered picking up one? Sure, but at a incredulous 3800# for the SS...that's wholely unnecessary.

I agree with whoever said they can't wait for the big three to go tits up. It's inevitable at this point. I'll stick with my European and Japanese makes. Bitch all you want, there's a reason they sell.
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Old 08-10-2008, 11:09 PM   #356
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it's a massively failed attempt at what's supposed to be a mid-tier sports car. Would I have considered picking up one? Sure, but at a incredulous 3800# for the SS...that's wholely unnecessary.
Uh...wrong on both accounts. 100% wrong, to be precise. Please search for the reasons; because I lack the patience to write them up, again.

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I agree with whoever said they can't wait for the big three to go tits up. It's inevitable at this point. I'll stick with my European and Japanese makes. Bitch all you want, there's a reason they sell.
Consider *this* me biting my tongue.
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Old 08-10-2008, 11:18 PM   #357
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It's not supposed to be a mid-tier sports car? And the spec sheet didn't say it was 3800#?

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Old 08-10-2008, 11:21 PM   #358
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[QUOTE=railgun;110217]Hardly. B-D has nothing to do with whether it looks good or not.

I've always been a huge fan of Camaros. 69s (natch) and the 76-78s in particular. I wasn't that suprised that this was coming back and really liked the first pics and specs around it, but like everyone else, it's a massively failed attempt at what's supposed to be a mid-tier sports car. Would I have considered picking up one? Sure, but at a incredulous 3800# for the SS...that's wholely unnecessary.

I agree with whoever said they can't wait for the big three to go tits up. It's inevitable at this point. I'll stick with my European and Japanese makes. Bitch all you want, there's a reason they sell.[/QUOTE]


Ignorance is bliss for some people.
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Old 08-10-2008, 11:23 PM   #359
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It's not supposed to be a mid-tier sports car? And the spec sheet didn't say it was 3800#?

how heavy is the much reviered GTR...???

or your 333i
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Old 08-10-2008, 11:23 PM   #360
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It's not supposed to be a mid-tier sports car? And the spec sheet didn't say it was 3800#?

I guess I'll be typing it out anyways......


1: I don't know what you mean by "Mid-tier". But it should (can't say "will" this day in age...) start near 20 grand for the 300hp V6, and start somewhere around 28-29 grand for the 400+ hp V8. So...what tier is that?

2: 3800lbs may look unattracitve on paper, but what you and everyone else who looks at that number and immediately complains don't seem to realize is that raw numbers and real-world driving experiences are NOT linked. This car will feel much lighter than the spec sheet says it is. You can count on it.
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Old 08-11-2008, 12:01 AM   #361
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Originally Posted by railgun View Post
Hardly. B-D has nothing to do with whether it looks good or not.

I've always been a huge fan of Camaros. 69s (natch) and the 76-78s in particular. I wasn't that suprised that this was coming back and really liked the first pics and specs around it, but like everyone else, it's a massively failed attempt at what's supposed to be a mid-tier sports car. Would I have considered picking up one? Sure, but at a incredulous 3800# for the SS...that's wholely unnecessary.
Quote:
"A massively failed attempt at what's supposed to be a mid-tier sports car."
......
In case you haven't noticed, there are reasons why the weight went up. Failed? I don't see how that is even possible seeing as though the Camaro hasn't even hit the market yet. Once the Camaro comes out and it supposedly flops due to weight, then you can say "I told ya so." Until then, the only thing that failed is your expectation of a corvette weight and performance at a Camaro price. Like others have said, sure....it could weight 3,000lbs, but then it'd cost $49,000. Which would put the Camaro (priced lower than the vette for a reason) beyond the average consumer price range which would then force it to............................................

FAIL.

Really....


If you are so ticked off about weight that it has turned you off that much, why did you join us on a site that is dedicated to the 5th Gen? Just to complain about the weight? I mean...........
Quote:
I agree with whoever said they can't wait for the big three to go tits up. It's inevitable at this point.
I'll stick with my European and Japanese makes. Bitch all you want, there's a reason they sell.
WTF???

If that's your take, FINE. Stick with your imports. We don't need to listen to your complaining over here. I'd say to stick around and talk about the good stuff surrounding the Camaro, but apparently that looks like it'll never happen.

Stick with your imports and their websites or open your mind to why weight has gone up (try reading the thread) and realize that it's called LIFE.
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Old 08-11-2008, 12:04 AM   #362
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Quote:
Originally Posted by railgun View Post
Hardly. B-D has nothing to do with whether it looks good or not.

I've always been a huge fan of Camaros. 69s (natch) and the 76-78s in particular. I wasn't that suprised that this was coming back and really liked the first pics and specs around it, but like everyone else, it's a massively failed attempt at what's supposed to be a mid-tier sports car. Would I have considered picking up one? Sure, but at a incredulous 3800# for the SS...that's wholely unnecessary.

I agree with whoever said they can't wait for the big three to go tits up. It's inevitable at this point. I'll stick with my European and Japanese makes. Bitch all you want, there's a reason they sell.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion and is free to buy or not buy what ever car they choose. And please understand that this post is directed specifically at you. There are a number of people who have a similar opinion who have posted in this thread, and are going to post here in the days and weeks to come. So this is for all of you

Ignoring the actual weight numbers for the Camaro (extremely difficult for some but please bare with me), look at the (lowballed) performance numbers that this horrible, awful, bloated, fat pig of a car is supposed to produce. 0-60 in ~4.7s, 0.9g on the skidpad. Last time I checked, thats pretty good. Could it be better if the weight was less? Yes, but you could use that argument if it weighed 2000 lbs too. Given the fact that the majority of cars have gained 10-15% in weight over the last 15 years or so, the Camaro's weight should not be too surprising to anyone. 1994 Z28 Coupe: 3430 lb +10-15% = 3773-3945, which is what the new SS weighs. Also, 3800 lbs is about what the big block Camaros weighed 'back in the day. The super light 3rd gen Camaros came in at ~3200 lbs.


As for how pathetic the new Camaro is, can someone please show me a car from Japan or Europe (or America) on sale over here that that costs 30k or less, seats 4, and has a power to weight ratio better than 9.5lbs/hp? (I omitted skidpad #'s because they are hard to find). The best I can find that meet the other criteria top out at 11 lbs/hp or so, or cost significantly more. And I'm getting too tired to keep searching. But Ford, Dodge, Honda, Toyota, Mazda, Volkswagen, and Mitsubishi don't have anything that I've seen.
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Old 08-11-2008, 01:03 AM   #363
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Originally Posted by TAG UR IT View Post
......
In case you haven't noticed, there are reasons why the weight went up. Failed? I don't see how that is even possible seeing as though the Camaro hasn't even hit the market yet. Once the Camaro comes out and it supposedly flops due to weight, then you can say "I told ya so." Until then, the only thing that failed is your expectation of a corvette weight and performance at a Camaro price. Like others have said, sure....it could weight 3,000lbs, but then it'd cost $49,000. Which would put the Camaro (priced lower than the vette for a reason) beyond the average consumer price range which would then force it to............................................

FAIL.

Really....


If you are so ticked off about weight that it has turned you off that much, why did you join us on a site that is dedicated to the 5th Gen? Just to complain about the weight? I mean...........


WTF???

If that's your take, FINE. Stick with your imports. We don't need to listen to your complaining over here. I'd say to stick around and talk about the good stuff surrounding the Camaro, but apparently that looks like it'll never happen.

Stick with your imports and their websites or open your mind to why weight has gone up (try reading the thread) and realize that it's called LIFE.
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Old 08-11-2008, 10:55 AM   #364
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I'll stick with my European and Japanese makes. Bitch all you want, there's a reason they sell.[/QUOTE]
The reason they sell is simply that they've exploited a quality advantage they had 10 years ago to create a myth that their cars were better than GM's. Some clever marketing and a few ricer movies and they've got legions of brainwashed consumers and fanboy minions to spread their poison to all corners of the earth.

The tables are turning and time will erode the myth.
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Old 08-11-2008, 01:19 PM   #365
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Originally Posted by railgun View Post
Hardly. B-D has nothing to do with whether it looks good or not.

I've always been a huge fan of Camaros. 69s (natch) and the 76-78s in particular. I wasn't that suprised that this was coming back and really liked the first pics and specs around it, but like everyone else, it's a massively failed attempt at what's supposed to be a mid-tier sports car. Would I have considered picking up one? Sure, but at a incredulous 3800# for the SS...that's wholely unnecessary.

I agree with whoever said they can't wait for the big three to go tits up. It's inevitable at this point. I'll stick with my European and Japanese makes. Bitch all you want, there's a reason they sell.
The $65,000 M3 weighs 3800# 414hp/295tq

The $38,000 SS weighs $3860# 422hp/408tq.
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Old 08-11-2008, 01:22 PM   #366
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Hardly. B-D has nothing to do with whether it looks good or not.

I've always been a huge fan of Camaros. 69s (natch) and the 76-78s in particular. I wasn't that suprised that this was coming back and really liked the first pics and specs around it, but like everyone else, it's a massively failed attempt at what's supposed to be a mid-tier sports car. Would I have considered picking up one? Sure, but at a incredulous 3800# for the SS...that's wholely unnecessary.

I agree with whoever said they can't wait for the big three to go tits up. It's inevitable at this point. I'll stick with my European and Japanese makes. Bitch all you want, there's a reason they sell.
I have done 2 LONG years of research on 3 BMW forums and found A TON of VERY unhappy people with the N54 bi-turbo.

I was VERY VERY close to buying a $43k 135i manual but many of them are having the same issues the 335i has and is having.

After looking at the CTS and G8 I think GM has finally come up in quality.

Toyota is having ALOT of recalls and problems.

European cars: BMW, AUDI, MB have ALOT of problems.

May I ask why you are on this forums anyways???

I WILL buy a 2010 SS LS3 in 2009 and am SURE the quality will be equal or better then a BMW.
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Old 08-11-2008, 01:36 PM   #367
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The $65,000 M3 weighs 3800# 414hp/295tq

The $38,000 SS weighs $3860# 422hp/408tq.
Planning on getting a 2SS vert I see . . .
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Old 08-11-2008, 01:55 PM   #368
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Wow...looks like I hit the sciatic with you guys.

I'm glad you all assumed what I'm about, but that's not something for me to care about.

Feel free to remove my account if the mods here, of whom some have PMd me for no reason whatsoever, care that much. Which apparently they do.

But please leave my posts. I want to reference them when I come back to say I told ya so.

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Old 08-11-2008, 02:07 PM   #369
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Wow...looks like I hit the sciatic with you guys.

I'm glad you all assumed what I'm about, but that's not something for me to care about.

Feel free to remove my account if the mods here, of whom some have PMd me for no reason whatsoever, care that much. Which apparently they do.

But please leave my posts. I want to reference them when I come back to say I told ya so.

If there is a misunderstanding, please make your side of things clearer. And you don't have to worry about us removing your posts.
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Old 08-12-2008, 06:52 AM   #370
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OK, I am a litle confused...the LS3 in the vette has a 430 hp rating at 5900 RPM, while the SS has a 422 hp rating at 5000 RPM, what am I missing here? Is it seriously underrated co,pared to the vette??
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Old 08-12-2008, 07:02 AM   #371
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OK, I am a litle confused...the LS3 in the vette has a 430 hp rating at 5900 RPM, while the SS has a 422 hp rating at 5000 RPM, what am I missing here? Is it seriously underrated co,pared to the vette??
Check out this thread.

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5935

There's a link to an article in the first post.

It will show you whats up with the Camaro's LS3.... In great detail.



For comparison, heres a motor trend article on the 2008 Corvette LS3.

http://www.motortrend.com/features/a...ine/index.html


Enjoy!
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Old 08-12-2008, 08:23 AM   #372
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OK, I am a litle confused...the LS3 in the vette has a 430 hp rating at 5900 RPM, while the SS has a 422 hp rating at 5000 RPM, what am I missing here? Is it seriously underrated co,pared to the vette??
Hmm, thats more power than the LS3 makes at those revs so its not exactly under rated.
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Old 08-12-2008, 08:38 AM   #373
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Wow...looks like I hit the sciatic with you guys.

I'm glad you all assumed what I'm about, but that's not something for me to care about.

Feel free to remove my account if the mods here, of whom some have PMd me for no reason whatsoever, care that much. Which apparently they do.

But please leave my posts. I want to reference them when I come back to say I told ya so.






Just really wondering why you are here ???????

I am a member on 3 BMW forums but don't go there dissing the 135i or 335i much. I check in now and then, but not daily like I use to.

TOO BAD BMW can't fix the HP fuel pump problems along with the new program that NOW causes lag until 3,000 rpm's on the N54.

I could make a huge list of problems but I won't.

Why are you here??????
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Old 08-12-2008, 02:42 PM   #374
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Hardly. B-D has nothing to do with whether it looks good or not.

I've always been a huge fan of Camaros. 69s (natch) and the 76-78s in particular. I wasn't that suprised that this was coming back and really liked the first pics and specs around it, but like everyone else, it's a massively failed attempt at what's supposed to be a mid-tier sports car. Would I have considered picking up one? Sure, but at a incredulous 3800# for the SS...that's wholely unnecessary.

I agree with whoever said they can't wait for the big three to go tits up. It's inevitable at this point. I'll stick with my European and Japanese makes. Bitch all you want, there's a reason they sell.
Quote:
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It's not supposed to be a mid-tier sports car? And the spec sheet didn't say it was 3800#?

Quote:
Originally Posted by railgun View Post
Wow...looks like I hit the sciatic with you guys.

I'm glad you all assumed what I'm about, but that's not something for me to care about.

Feel free to remove my account if the mods here, of whom some have PMd me for no reason whatsoever, care that much. Which apparently they do.

But please leave my posts. I want to reference them when I come back to say I told ya so.

Everyone its ok let little Mr. Imports have his fun. But this about this: you little 335i doesnt ever stand a chance against the v6. I dont know whether you have the coupe or the sedan but both only make 300hp, and they're already turbocharged. And get this the sedan weighs in at 3600lbs with the coupe coming in at 3571lb and those are without your sport packages. So I dont think you should be one to say even a single word. When the LT auto comes in at 3750. Now I dont think you little excuse for a german car stands a chance.

BTW: your Mazda is an American car, not an Import

BTW: Beemers are for people would couldnt afford a Benzo. So there isnt much to brag about now is there. Now run along befor the Beemer Hunter Finds you.
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Old 08-12-2008, 03:01 PM   #375
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Originally Posted by The_Beast_ View Post
Everyone its ok let little Mr. Imports have his fun. But this about this: you little 335i doesnt ever stand a chance against the v6. I dont know whether you have the coupe or the sedan but both only make 300hp, and they're already turbocharged. And get this the sedan weighs in at 3600lbs with the coupe coming in at 3571lb and those are without your sport packages. So I dont think you should be one to say even a single word. When the LT auto comes in at 3750. Now I dont think you little excuse for a german car stands a chance.

BTW: your Mazda is an American car, not an Import

BTW: Beemers are for people would couldnt afford a Benzo. So there isnt much to brag about now is there. Now run along befor the Beemer Hunter Finds you.
Hummmmmm????? Didn't I read in Motor Trend while testing a twin turbo BMW automatic, they burned up he engine due to the fact, BMW only put oil coolers on the stick shift???? So much for great German know how.
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