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Old 11-05-2009, 02:25 PM   #15
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tunes.

so change it all back to stock and put your stock tune in. My stock tune is exactly the same as it came. We checked it out last night with the screen shot and it does not I repeat does not differ in any way. If all of you are so worried about it then forget it don't do it and quit whining about it. Ask a lot of the G8 guys what is happening to them with warranty work and a tune. They still get it as long as the stock is back on the car with stock parts. They are not getting denied. One of the only vehicles I know of with gm that has the flash counter enabled is the duramax diesel equipped vehicles.
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Old 11-05-2009, 03:25 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by GaryTucker View Post
I know one of the suppliers (supercharger maybe) has a supplemental warranty available for powertrain coverage...I'd think a tuner that has done proper testing (more than just tuning a few cars for more hp) could verify their work to an insurer and get the same type of coverage available.
Superchargers are marked up so much that the manufacturers can afford to offer a drivetrain warranty. If a tune cost $7,000 I guarantee you'd get a drivetrain warranty from your tuner, no sweat. In fact I'll tune your car for $7,000 and give you a 3-year/36k mile drivetrain warranty. PM me for details!!

So are we all agreeing the stock tune can be flashed back to stock and be undetected by the dealer if done right. And we agree that at this time it is still unknown if GM can see if the tune has been changed?
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Old 11-05-2009, 06:20 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by toehead93 View Post
Superchargers are marked up so much that the manufacturers can afford to offer a drivetrain warranty. If a tune cost $7,000 I guarantee you'd get a drivetrain warranty from your tuner, no sweat. In fact I'll tune your car for $7,000 and give you a 3-year/36k mile drivetrain warranty. PM me for details!!

So are we all agreeing the stock tune can be flashed back to stock and be undetected by the dealer if done right. And we agree that at this time it is still unknown if GM can see if the tune has been changed?
If done right? Who is to say that GM can't see them if the REALLY want to look? Just because some G8 guys are getting away with it right now...doesn't mean you'll be able to get away with it tomorrow. Especially since the tuners are bragging on boards all over the place that GM CANNOT find their tune or about how easy it is to remove. We all know that GM trolls these sites...so why wouldn't we expect them to be working on a "fix" for this issue?

Maybe the tuners ought to investigate the warranty route versus just trying to be the "cheapest" on the block. A little differentiation goes a long way in the world of marketing. Instead of looking for the cheapest, most powerful tune a customer might just look for a tune with a warranty. I will tell you that the warranty issue is one reason my cars have always stayed stock until after the warranty expired.

I don't think it would be $7,000, but it would be more $500 as it would require the tuners to actually R&D their product to a point that they could document the failure ratios of their work so that they could get an actuary to figure the failure ratios and develop a cost scenario to base insurance coverage from...this would allow the tuner to offer a warranty on their product and they could even offer two options...warranty or no warranty. I'm betting they could get their cost back pretty quickly!
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Old 11-05-2009, 09:54 PM   #18
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I have spent alot of time researching this issue and can not find any evidence GM can tell if you have HAD a tune or not. The calibration verification numbers go back to stock numbers when the factory tune is programed back into the PCM.GM wants to see a snapshot of the CVN's to see if they match the calibration numbers so they can decide whether or not the numbers are GM released or not and decide to warranty or not based on that information, not because they can "see" something the dealer tech can't. Also there is not an active flash counter on the PCM.Iave not done a tune on one but do have a customer that used a Hypertech max Energy to turn of AFM. I see no reason his warranty should be voided because of this. I'm sure there are many of these cars that are abused way more than his that have a stock tune. IMHO if you are abusing your car with or without a tune you should loose your power train warranty. You know you have to pay to play, right?
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Old 11-05-2009, 11:30 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by GaryTucker View Post
I also beg to differ...it isn't what the tech can see at the dealership...it is what GM can see when the dealership is REQUIRED to send the computer upload to them. My guess is that there is alot more going on "behind the scenes" that the techs can't even see. When you have a powertrain failure...it seems that GM is requiring an upload on nearly every one that happens. If GM couldn't see anything more than the techs...the really wouldn't need this as a screenshot printout would suffice.
Can you show me where GM REQUIRES anything, before drivetrain warranty work can be done? The only bulletin that i've seen, addressing this issue, says they are required ONLY if the dealer wishes to document the case which I assume means they want to deny warranty work. Now if something else has come out, i'd like to see it.

Corporate Bulletin Number 08-06-04-033 is currently available in SI.

Identifying Aftermarket Engine Calibrations 2.0L, 2.2L, 2.4L, 2.8L, 2.9L, 3.0L, 3.1L, 3.2L, 3.4L,
3.5L, 3.6L, 3.8L, 3.9L, 4.2L, 4.3L, 4.4L, 4.6L, 4.8L, 5.0L, 5.3L, 5.7L, 6.0L, 6.2L, 7.0L, 7.4L, 8.1L
Gas Powered Engines Only

Models: 2006–2009 GM Passenger Cars and Light Duty Trucks
2006–2009 HUMMER H2, H3
Excluding Pontiac Vibe, G8, Chevrolet Aveo, All Saturn and Saab Models

Important: This bulletin applies to Gas Powered Engines ONLY. For Diesel Powered Engines, refer to Service Bulletin #08-06-04-006A.

If a suspicious hard part failure is observed in the engine, transmission, transfer case or driveline, perform the calibration verification described to determine if a non-GM issued engine calibration is installed. Non-GM issued engine calibrations subject driveline components to stresses different than the calibrations which these components were validated to. Repairs to transmission, transfer case and/or other driveline components where a non-GM engine calibration has been verified are not covered under the terms of the New Vehicle Warranty.

Instructions for Confirming Calibration Verification Number (CVN):

1. Go to TIS2WEB
2. Select "Calibration Information (SPS Info)"
3. Enter VIN
4. Select "Get Cal ID"
5. Select "ECM Engine Control Module"
6. Select "Next"
7. Select "Complete History"
8. Print
9. Take the printout to the vehicle along with the Tech 2®
10. Plug in the Tech 2®
11. Go to diagnostics and build the vehicle
12. Select "Powertrain"
13. Select "Engine"
14. *Select "Engine Control Module" or "PCM"
15. *Select "Module ID Information" or "I/M Information System" if module ID information selection is not available.
16. *If "I/M information System" was selected in step 15, it may be necessary to select "Vehicle Information" in order to display the calibration information.
17. Compare the calibration ID and Calibration Verification Numbers (CVN) to the Calibration Verification Numbers (CVN) on the printout.

* Steps may vary by controller.

Although the part numbers will be the same for each, it's the CVN that will determine if the calibration is GM issued. If ALL of the CVN's are EXACTLY the same, the calibration is GM issued.

If the part numbers match and ANY CVN's DO NOT match the printout, it is likely that a non-GM certified calibration has been installed.

If the CVN information is displayed as "N/A", it will be necessary to contact the TCSC to obtain the CVN information.

If a non-GM calibration is found to be in the ECM (CVN's on the Tech 2 do not match TIS printout) - In order to document the case — a CLEAR digital picture should be taken of the Tech 2® screen showing the VIN and the CVN's that do not match the TIS2WEB printout. The picture, VIN and reason the vehicle is currently in for service should be emailed to JAY.DANKOVICH@GM.COM and STEVEN.R. BRIDSON@GM.COM for verification. Please copy your GM District Service Manager (DVM) on the e-mail. GM will verify if the CVN's are not GM issued and respond via e-mail within 72 hours.

So if everyone can agree that the flash counter is disabled and if putting the stock tune back in wipes all traces of the "tune", then it's safe to say they can't see it at the dealership. It appears as though you don't have to send the ECU in, just the CVN's, so how is GM suppose to see anything from a report that the dealer can't see?

Last edited by axis; 11-05-2009 at 11:41 PM.
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Old 11-06-2009, 07:47 AM   #20
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Now that makes sense. If a tuned car goes in for a broken transmission the CVN will not match. GM then wants to see the data to determine what was tuned. If you only tuned out AFM or adjusted the CEL for your long tube headers and left all torque management, etc the same as stock there is no reason GM can deny your warranty. They just want to know if you tuned out the safety factors for the drivetrain.
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Old 11-06-2009, 09:01 AM   #21
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Lets muddy the waters even more...

Let say I have minor mods and I want to get a dyno tune. I take it to my favorite tuner and the results are minimal. I decide that the +6 hp is not worth risking my warranty and have the stock tune put back on right then and there.
Following the logic of some of the posters, I'm screwed. My warranty is now void! Really???
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Old 11-06-2009, 12:34 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by axis View Post
Can you show me where GM REQUIRES anything, before drivetrain warranty work can be done? The only bulletin that i've seen, addressing this issue, says they are required ONLY if the dealer wishes to document the case which I assume means they want to deny warranty work. Now if something else has come out, i'd like to see it.

Corporate Bulletin Number 08-06-04-033 is currently available in SI.

Identifying Aftermarket Engine Calibrations 2.0L, 2.2L, 2.4L, 2.8L, 2.9L, 3.0L, 3.1L, 3.2L, 3.4L,
3.5L, 3.6L, 3.8L, 3.9L, 4.2L, 4.3L, 4.4L, 4.6L, 4.8L, 5.0L, 5.3L, 5.7L, 6.0L, 6.2L, 7.0L, 7.4L, 8.1L
Gas Powered Engines Only

Models: 2006–2009 GM Passenger Cars and Light Duty Trucks
2006–2009 HUMMER H2, H3
Excluding Pontiac Vibe, G8, Chevrolet Aveo, All Saturn and Saab Models

Important: This bulletin applies to Gas Powered Engines ONLY. For Diesel Powered Engines, refer to Service Bulletin #08-06-04-006A.

If a suspicious hard part failure is observed in the engine, transmission, transfer case or driveline, perform the calibration verification described to determine if a non-GM issued engine calibration is installed. Non-GM issued engine calibrations subject driveline components to stresses different than the calibrations which these components were validated to. Repairs to transmission, transfer case and/or other driveline components where a non-GM engine calibration has been verified are not covered under the terms of the New Vehicle Warranty.

Instructions for Confirming Calibration Verification Number (CVN):

1. Go to TIS2WEB
2. Select "Calibration Information (SPS Info)"
3. Enter VIN
4. Select "Get Cal ID"
5. Select "ECM Engine Control Module"
6. Select "Next"
7. Select "Complete History"
8. Print
9. Take the printout to the vehicle along with the Tech 2®
10. Plug in the Tech 2®
11. Go to diagnostics and build the vehicle
12. Select "Powertrain"
13. Select "Engine"
14. *Select "Engine Control Module" or "PCM"
15. *Select "Module ID Information" or "I/M Information System" if module ID information selection is not available.
16. *If "I/M information System" was selected in step 15, it may be necessary to select "Vehicle Information" in order to display the calibration information.
17. Compare the calibration ID and Calibration Verification Numbers (CVN) to the Calibration Verification Numbers (CVN) on the printout.

* Steps may vary by controller.

Although the part numbers will be the same for each, it's the CVN that will determine if the calibration is GM issued. If ALL of the CVN's are EXACTLY the same, the calibration is GM issued.

If the part numbers match and ANY CVN's DO NOT match the printout, it is likely that a non-GM certified calibration has been installed.

If the CVN information is displayed as "N/A", it will be necessary to contact the TCSC to obtain the CVN information.

If a non-GM calibration is found to be in the ECM (CVN's on the Tech 2 do not match TIS printout) - In order to document the case — a CLEAR digital picture should be taken of the Tech 2® screen showing the VIN and the CVN's that do not match the TIS2WEB printout. The picture, VIN and reason the vehicle is currently in for service should be emailed to JAY.DANKOVICH@GM.COM and STEVEN.R. BRIDSON@GM.COM for verification. Please copy your GM District Service Manager (DVM) on the e-mail. GM will verify if the CVN's are not GM issued and respond via e-mail within 72 hours.

So if everyone can agree that the flash counter is disabled and if putting the stock tune back in wipes all traces of the "tune", then it's safe to say they can't see it at the dealership. It appears as though you don't have to send the ECU in, just the CVN's, so how is GM suppose to see anything from a report that the dealer can't see?
I'm guessing it depends on the situation and the dealer...but really, will you know that you've got the right dealer at the right time when you take in your car. GM is cracking down on warranty fraud as it has increased as dealers have struggled to make ends meet during these lean times. If a customer comes in with "xxx" problem and I can turn it from a $100 bill to GM into a $1000 bill with GM I can pay my bills. This is what has driven GM to ask for verification.

When I was a tech, I found that it was safer to document everything because you never knew when you were going to be the "lucky" one to get to answer questions on an audit from the regional service person. If you couldn't prove your situation...guess what...the dealer ate it. It's much like that now, GM may require the dealer to call in for approval for certain repairs...and that approval usually requires screen shots.

We had this happen in the early days of the LS-1 in the F-Body...remember how they were bending pushrods? We had to document the hell out of those engine replacements as the cost to GM was pretty extreme.

I'm not trying to say that GM is looking at EVERY repair...but it truly is a luck of the draw and I don't know that I'd want to play those odds. Usually at the point you find out you are denied, they are pretty far into whatever they are looking at and you are stuck with fix it there on your dime or pick up your car in boxes, pay tear down time and go somewhere else.
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Old 11-06-2009, 12:36 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Davis View Post
Lets muddy the waters even more...

Let say I have minor mods and I want to get a dyno tune. I take it to my favorite tuner and the results are minimal. I decide that the +6 hp is not worth risking my warranty and have the stock tune put back on right then and there.
Following the logic of some of the posters, I'm screwed. My warranty is now void! Really???
Potentially.

No one can say 100% for sure. That is the issue here. We have tuners claiming GM can't tell you've untuned your car and others, like myself, that believe that there are probably some things that the tuners may not be able to see. No one has proven anything either way...no matter what they tell you. It comes down to the fact of whether you've got the money to gamble on losing your powertrain warranty. If you don't...then don't mess with mods.
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Old 11-06-2009, 12:56 PM   #24
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This has been beat to death and back. The problem I see is people who REALLY don't know are injecting opinion that only serves to confuse. I gotta believe the reputable tuners have a pretty good idea whats going on but the bottom line is if you're worried or can't pay for a rejected warranty repair DON'T TUNE!

The service manager at my dealer said a CAI would'nt void the powertrain warranty and neither would a cat back exhaust and those two mods made mine run a lot better so stick with whats safe and enjoy the ride!!!!!!!!!
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Old 11-06-2009, 01:06 PM   #25
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Its funny that doing something good for your car can void your warranty. Once a tune is correctly set the motor runs more efficiently with less chance of a problem. Ig GM was smart they would introduce a tuning service...

But whatever it just sucks... and im just venting...:seesaw:
I give up.................I've tried to teach you guys, but there is nobody selling tunes that gives more HP without affecting durability. There isn't anyone that can give you more FE without sacrificing the performance you already have.

GM spends thousands and thousands of hours in the lab, on the dyno and in the car providing your Camaro with the best overall performance that is reliable, fuel efficient, emissions compliant and DURABLE.

There isn't a tune out there that is better for your car. They just may make the tradeoffs that suit your prefference.

And I won't go into the Fraud aspects of putting the OEM parts back on........
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Old 11-06-2009, 01:11 PM   #26
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I don't get how my car has been subjected to any undo stresses and subsequently have my warranty declined if the ONLY thing I had changed was the AFM taken out. So what if I lose some MPG, that affects my wallet not GM's(environmentalist sit back down). Is it fair to me if a claim is denied that actually was legit?
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Old 11-06-2009, 01:13 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Camarorss350 View Post
Its funny that doing something good for your car can void your warranty. Once a tune is correctly set the motor runs more efficiently with less chance of a problem. Ig GM was smart they would introduce a tuning service...

But whatever it just sucks... and im just venting...
I give up.................I've tried to teach you guys, but there is nobody selling tunes that gives more HP without affecting durability. There isn't anyone that can give you more FE without sacrificing the performance you already have.

GM spends thousands and thousands of hours in the lab, on the dyno and in the car providing your Camaro with the best overall performance that is reliable, fuel efficient, emissions compliant and DURABLE.

There isn't a tune out there that is better for your car. They just may make the tradeoffs that suit your prefference.

And I won't go into the Fraud aspects of putting the OEM parts back on........
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Dude, every motor is different... GM makes the tune so broad that it can handle variances in engine performance. Once your car is tuned by a pro, he can make the parameters alot closer to the specs that your engine is commanding...


Do you even know what a tune is?
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Old 11-06-2009, 01:13 PM   #28
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This has been beat to death and back. The problem I see is people who REALLY don't know are injecting opinion that only serves to confuse. I gotta believe the reputable tuners have a pretty good idea whats going on but the bottom line is if you're worried or can't pay for a rejected warranty repair DON'T TUNE!

The service manager at my dealer said a CAI would'nt void the powertrain warranty and neither would a cat back exhaust and those two mods made mine run a lot better so stick with whats safe and enjoy the ride!!!!!!!!!

thats just it. they have a pretty good idea. but they dont know all the ins and outs of this computer. some claim to, but they dont. there are systems and subsystems in this computer that the tuners cant access (regardless of what they might let you believe). they want you to think that you can sneak by GM with a tune. just because the dealer tech couldnt find the tune, doesnt mean that the GM engineer who reviews the pcm wont.
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