Tune + Warranty concerns

[SS-screamer]

I don't get how my car has been subjected to any undo stresses and subsequently have my warranty declined if the ONLY thing I had changed was the AFM taken out. So what if I lose some MPG, that affects my wallet not GM's(environmentalist sit back down). Is it fair to me if a claim is denied that actually was legit?

[Camarorss350]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Camarorss350 View Post
Its funny that doing something good for your car can void your warranty. Once a tune is correctly set the motor runs more efficiently with less chance of a problem. Ig GM was smart they would introduce a tuning service...

But whatever it just sucks... and im just venting...
I give up.................I've tried to teach you guys, but there is nobody selling tunes that gives more HP without affecting durability. There isn't anyone that can give you more FE without sacrificing the performance you already have.

GM spends thousands and thousands of hours in the lab, on the dyno and in the car providing your Camaro with the best overall performance that is reliable, fuel efficient, emissions compliant and DURABLE.

There isn't a tune out there that is better for your car. They just may make the tradeoffs that suit your prefference.

And I won't go into the Fraud aspects of putting the OEM parts back on........
__________________

Dude, every motor is different... GM makes the tune so broad that it can handle variances in engine performance. Once your car is tuned by a pro, he can make the parameters alot closer to the specs that your engine is commanding...


Do you even know what a tune is?

[CamaroSpike23]

Originally Posted by Partick

This has been beat to death and back. The problem I see is people who REALLY don't know are injecting opinion that only serves to confuse. I gotta believe the reputable tuners have a pretty good idea whats going on but the bottom line is if you're worried or can't pay for a rejected warranty repair DON'T TUNE!

The service manager at my dealer said a CAI would'nt void the powertrain warranty and neither would a cat back exhaust and those two mods made mine run a lot better so stick with whats safe and enjoy the ride!!!!!!!!!

thats just it. they have a pretty good idea. but they dont know all the ins and outs of this computer. some claim to, but they dont. there are systems and subsystems in this computer that the tuners cant access (regardless of what they might let you believe). they want you to think that you can sneak by GM with a tune. just because the dealer tech couldnt find the tune, doesnt mean that the GM engineer who reviews the pcm wont.

[Camarorss350]

btw, sorry for blowing up i just hate when people directly attack my intelligence....

[Partick]

Originally Posted by CamaroSpike23

thats just it. they have a pretty good idea. but they dont know all the ins and outs of this computer. some claim to, but they dont. there are systems and subsystems in this computer that the tuners cant access (regardless of what they might let you believe). they want you to think that you can sneak by GM with a tune. just because the dealer tech couldnt find the tune, doesnt mean that the GM engineer who reviews the pcm wont.

Just out of curiosity where do you get your knowledge of the ECU that concinces you the tuners don't know as much as they think they do?

[ffrcobra_65]

I bet there are tuners out there with the same educational degree and maybe even higher, than those working at GM and reading computer mambo-jambo has become second nature to them. I know a guy who is an awesome tuner dealing mainly with Mustangs and this guy quit his job as a mechanical engineer, opened his speed shop, and can read data and tune cars with the best of them.
Oh yeah, he says he would never tell a customer that a tune can be deleted and never be detected by the manufacturer. He put it simply, "think about your personal computer, you press delete, you don't see the stuff anymore but we know the crap you deleted is still there. It just takes someone with know how and look at the hidden tables to see it. There may or maybe not be other tables I can see that only the manufacturer can see, I don't know that and no tuner can say 100% they see and know everything. But you can bet your car if Ford (or GM) engineers wanted to investigate a car's computer, they'll see what they are looking for. "

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by Camarorss350

btw, sorry for blowing up i just hate when people directly attack my intelligence....

Who attacked your intelligence? Hoping you aren't thinking it was me. The guys who know me here know I don't do that.

Originally Posted by Partick

Just out of curiosity where do you get your knowledge of the ECU that concinces you the tuners don't know as much as they think they do?

I am a Validation Manager at General Motors. I work with the teams to develop the Validation Plan for new programs and to define and content goes on the MILLIONS of dollars of prototypes that it takes to properly calibrate a powertrain. Further, I anther Manger from my group on our Hybrids. You want to talk about a calibration nightmare. And one of my oldest friends works for Ford in the Dyno where they do the preliminary calibration where hundreds of hours of Dyno work and computer simulation are used before you can even drop the engine into a car and drive it.

So, yes, I have a pretty good idea on what it takes to calibrate a powertrain and a pretty good idea what tests and evaluations are done over several YEARS to get it right.

Originally Posted by ffrcobra_65

I bet there are tuners out there with the same educational degree and maybe even higher, than those working at GM and reading computer mambo-jambo has become second nature to them. I know a guy who is an awesome tuner dealing mainly with Mustangs and this guy quit his job as a mechanical engineer, opened his speed shop, and can read data and tune cars with the best of them.
Oh yeah, he says he would never tell a customer that a tune can be deleted and never be detected by the manufacturer. He put it simply, "think about your personal computer, you press delete, you don't see the stuff anymore but we know the crap you deleted is still there. It just takes someone with know how and look at the hidden tables to see it. There may or maybe not be other tables I can see that only the manufacturer can see, I don't know that and no tuner can say 100% they see and know everything. But you can bet your car if Ford (or GM) engineers wanted to investigate a car's computer, they'll see what they are looking for. "

Not higher, but I am quite confident there are good technical folks out there working on tunes. Yep, I'm sure there are. And I'm sure some are absolutely brilliant and GM would be better to have them. They just don't have the resources, manpower and equipment to do what GM does (and it isn't just GM by the way, all OEMs). Do they have a PG? One in the desert and another in the cold frigid North? Hot and Cold chamber dynos? Multiple grades for stop/start, trailering? What they do have that GM doesn't is the benefit of not having to worry about FE or Emissions or Warranty.

I have no problem with the guys getting mods on their cars. I just try to explain why you shouldn't epxect GM to warranty your car if you do modify it and yes, I get defensive when you guys make claims that your "tune" makes your car better (especially more durable.........not). It might make more HP and if that is your deffinition of better, cool. But any OEM optimizes the powertrain calibration on a wide range of requirements. You are focussing HP. I've said it before and I'll say it again..............if there were some magic formula that resulted in HP and Fuel Economy and it met emissions, it would already be in your car. There are engineers that do nothing but optimize these calibrations.

GM provides a 5 year/100,000 mile warranty on your powertrain. That warranty is based on millions of dollars spent to engineer and validate the car under the conditions it is delivered to you. You can't expect any company to warranty a product when you modify it outside those boundry conditions.

[CamaroSpike23]

Originally Posted by Partick

Just out of curiosity where do you get your knowledge of the ECU that concinces you the tuners don't know as much as they think they do?

just a couple of people that actually wrote the programming for the Camaro's ecu. and I'm not saying the tuners dont know a lot. I know they do know a massive amount on tuning. but some of them are claiming to know more than they do when it comes to this ECU.

[ffrcobra_65]

Thanks number 3. A lot of consumers just don't understand the Validation process: Design, Testing, Expected Results, Pass/Fail, Deviations, etc. aspects that are done/met/passed before putting this type of product out there. Many think you just slap and engine and tranny together, tie them to a module, install some cats and mufflers to meet those requirements, and it is done. VALIDATION is a huge pain but necessary.

[axis]

Originally Posted by GaryTucker

I'm guessing it depends on the situation and the dealer...but really, will you know that you've got the right dealer at the right time when you take in your car. GM is cracking down on warranty fraud as it has increased as dealers have struggled to make ends meet during these lean times. If a customer comes in with "xxx" problem and I can turn it from a $100 bill to GM into a $1000 bill with GM I can pay my bills. This is what has driven GM to ask for verification.

I'm not endorsing defrauding GM or anyone else. I'm just replying to those that are suggesting things that aren't necessarily true. Saying that GM requires a upload of the ECU files with every power train warranty claim is absolutely not true. It's trying putting a scare into everyone with absolutely no basis. That is not saying that GM can't come in and demand what it wants from the dealerships, but to this point, they haven't and nothing has been put out there to suggest they are going to. In fact, has ANYONE on this site been denied warranty work based on a tune or any other minor mod, like CAI or exhaust? I do agree that if you want to mod your car, including "tunning", then you should be ready to pay the price if you break something but trying to scare people with unfounded gossip is wrong.

[2cnd chance]

[QUOTE=Camarorss350;1141492]Dude, every motor is different... GM makes the tune so broad that it can handle variances in engine performance. Once your car is tuned by a pro, he can make the parameters alot closer to the specs that your engine is commanding...


Do you even know what a tune is?[/QUOTE]


ooooooooooooooooooooooooh no he didn't?

[axis]

Originally Posted by CamaroSpike23

thats just it. they have a pretty good idea. but they dont know all the ins and outs of this computer. some claim to, but they dont. there are systems and subsystems in this computer that the tuners cant access (regardless of what they might let you believe). they want you to think that you can sneak by GM with a tune. just because the dealer tech couldnt find the tune, doesnt mean that the GM engineer who reviews the pcm wont.

It's just a drive train computer, not some super secret module that holds the access codes to the long range nuclear missiles. Programs can be accessed and subsystems can be accessed, despite what the "GM programmers" told you. If they can access it, I can guarantee you that others can. Despite that, it really doesn't matter if you can access those subsystems anyway. All they're doing is tweaking the stock tune and putting it back in. It's not like they are rewriting a brand new engine management program, although i'm sure many of them could do just that.

It all comes down to whether or not GM can tell if you've swapped a "cooked" tune in and then reverted back to OEM. If they don't have a WORKING counter to tell if it's been swapped, then they can't. Do you have proof that the GM engineer can figure it out? How many of these "GM engineers" are out there? They're gonna have to have a shit load of them to go all around the country checking ECUs. I think you either give them too much credit or the private sector too little. If you ghost the stock tune out, then put it back in, it's EXACTLY the way it was when it was taken out and will match all the CVN codes perfectly. If you go by the bulletin that GM put out, as long as the CVN codes match, it's OEM.

Although the part numbers will be the same for each, it's the CVN that will determine if the calibration is GM issued. If ALL of the CVN's are EXACTLY the same, the calibration is GM issued.

[ryeguycamaro]

Nicely Put Axis couldn't have said it better. The car we did this on the cvn matched perfectly. We copied the stock tune and saved it and then modified the that tune and resaved it put it in and checked it and the cvns were different, then we put the stock tune back in and the cvn were just as they were before we even touched the car. We did the whole screen shot test and compared.

[JohnInSoCal]

got to pay to play. I don't know much about custom tunes, or how specifically these HP tuners etc. write new parameters to change the tune of the car but I am a computer programmer. And as a programmer/engineer I can guarantee you that GM could easily design this module to allow you to change certain parameters with tuners and tell that you modified it and put it back, even without that counter. The HP tuners is only allowed to access what the module allows it to, GM could easily have other parameters that are not visible to the tuners or techs and that only GM has access to when they want to. Now I don't know if GM designed the computer to do so but it would be easy to do it, they have been doing this for years, and given the cost of replacing transmissions etc. I would think they thought of this long long ago and are doing exactly that.

So I am not saying one way or the other what they do, only that it is easily possible that they are doing it and the tuners simply are not aware of it because they are only accessing a very limited portion of the module that the module allows them to.

Having said all that I am not worried about modding the car and getting custom tunes at all. These engines are very strong, the only thing what worries me a bit is the transmission but no guts no glory.

[axis]

Originally Posted by JohnInSoCal

got to pay to play. I don't know much about custom tunes, or how specifically these HP tuners etc. write new parameters to change the tune of the car but I am a computer programmer. And as a programmer/engineer I can guarantee you that GM could easily design this module to allow you to change certain parameters with tuners and tell that you modified it and put it back, even without that counter. The HP tuners is only allowed to access what the module allows it to, GM could easily have other parameters that are not visible to the tuners or techs and that only GM has access to when they want to. Now I don't know if GM designed the computer to do so but it would be easy to do it, they have been doing this for years, and given the cost of replacing transmissions etc. I would think they thought of this long long ago and are doing exactly that.

So I am not saying one way or the other what they do, only that it is easily possible that they are doing it and the tuners simply are not aware of it because they are only accessing a very limited portion of the module that the module allows them to.

Having said all that I am not worried about modding the car and getting custom tunes at all. These engines are very strong, the only thing what worries me a bit is the transmission but no guts no glory.

I have not doubt that they "COULD" do something but the counter would have been the easiest and apparently they didn't activate it. Other than that, there are a lot of "IFs" in your post. There are a lot of things that "could" have been done but nothing has been done as of today and until GM does something, it's all just speculation and unfounded gossip. If the GM bulletin holds true, the only way for GM Corporate will get involved is when the dealer chooses to make a stink about it. The dealer will have to have knowlege of wrong doing, other than the CVN codes, since they apparently don't have any more access than the rest of us. In the end, it's still a crap shoot, but if you want to play, you have to be able to accept the "possible" consequences.

[JohnInSoCal]

this is all speculation on both sides. Until somebody blows an engine or tranny and has a custom tune and then tries to reset that tune and bring it in for a new engine or tranny under warranty then we will not know if GM can detect a tune change or not. That is unless a GM engineer who designed the system makes a comment here or statement in print somewhere. Until then this is 100% speculation on both sides. Just because a mechanic at a chevy dealer didn't detect a custom tune doesn't mean that GM can't.

Bottom line is if you are worried about it then keep your car stock. If you don't care one way or another then have fun and mod away which is what I will do. But if you are the type that is worried about GM voiding your warranty then I wouldn't bet the farm on internet speculation because that is all we have in this thread.

[GaryTucker]

Originally Posted by axis

I'm not endorsing defrauding GM or anyone else. I'm just replying to those that are suggesting things that aren't necessarily true. Saying that GM requires a upload of the ECU files with every power train warranty claim is absolutely not true. It's trying putting a scare into everyone with absolutely no basis. That is not saying that GM can't come in and demand what it wants from the dealerships, but to this point, they haven't and nothing has been put out there to suggest they are going to. In fact, has ANYONE on this site been denied warranty work based on a tune or any other minor mod, like CAI or exhaust? I do agree that if you want to mod your car, including "tunning", then you should be ready to pay the price if you break something but trying to scare people with unfounded gossip is wrong.

I'm not sure if there are any 5th gen cars that have been denied...but I was pulled into a warranty block on a 4th gen (modded car, stupid kid-owner...you can guess what got this one blocked) and I can tell you that there HAVE been Corvettes denied this year...so yes it does happen.

[RickyTheStorm]

So basically - you can get more performance out of the car with a tune, but you will most likely loose fuel economy and emissions? Yep - won't argue that - more performance typically would do that - however everyone who is saying a tune makes there car better (performance wise) doesn't really look at those down points - hence why this would be a never-ending argument.

Of course there are also four catalytic converters on the car which hurt performance and fuel economy anyway - but make the car meet emissions.

So yes - everything on the car is designed to get the most performance and best fuel economy and maintain proper emission levels.

Now - the question - why should a tune void the warranty? Okay - GM met the emission requirements of federal law already - so by someone changing their settings to get a few extra horsepower kills the whole warranty because of gas mileage and emissions? That seems crazy - of course then again I do understand how a tune can cause an issue with the mechanics of the drive train - heck, accidentally put in the wrong timing numbers and you can screw your engine in many ways. So on the other hand I do understand the voided warranty - the thing I think would be best is if a tune stayed - and GM determined if that was the direct result of the failure - but that isn't the way the warranty is written.

So - what am I saying? I understand both points, with the exception of emissions and gas mileage - that should have absolutely nothing to do with warranty.

However, I believe that if I had my car tuned and my transmission went out because of a faulty piece in that transmission I should not be denied my warranty coverage - yea the car was tuned, but had no direct impact on the transmission.

Now onto mods. Why, oh why, should my warranty go void because I throw headers and an exhaust on the car. Okay - I increase the exhaust flow, and make the sound a heck of a lot better, but my transmission breaks - what does that have to do with exhaust. As for the engine - well with a proper tune it should have no affect on the engine.

So that brings me to another point - why can't people go and put all the mods they want on a car and get a GM CERTIFIED TUNE - be a great way to make some extra money, the numbers will be good for the actual car and people won't be restricted to just GM parts and have to go to a GM dealer. I think this would be the alternative to take - !!!!ESPECIALLY WITH A PERFORMANCE CAR!!!!

Sorry for ranting, my two cents, but the arguments will never end, it is a fight that will go on forever - the resolution is the actual problem. I think a GM Certified Tuning Station at participating dealers would kick some major ass.

Again, just my 2 cents.

[Temper]

1. It would be VERY easy to override any logic that GM uses to detect a modified system. All you would have to do is decompile the program and all memory locations in it. I doubt anyone has done that as it would take 1000s of man-hours. However, there is a much easier approach. If you can download ALL memory, save it, and then re-download all memory to the system it would be more than impossible to tell.

2. Exactly, as someone else said GM spends a lot of time tuning the engine for things they feel are important governed also by mandates. When you pay a tuner you get to CHOOSE what kind of tune you want. I fail to see the logic in GM or ANY company for voiding the warranty just because you tuned the engine. Sure, if they look at it an determine the fuel is too rich or lean. But to say, you messed with it that is why it broke is just ANOTHER company demonstrating that they want to market something but not put their money where the mouth is.

[axis]

Originally Posted by GaryTucker

I'm not sure if there are any 5th gen cars that have been denied...but I was pulled into a warranty block on a 4th gen (modded car, stupid kid-owner...you can guess what got this one blocked) and I can tell you that there HAVE been Corvettes denied this year...so yes it does happen.

What were the circumstance behind the vette's being denied? There's always 3 sides to every story, yours, theirs, then the truth. I have seen 4th gens and vettes taken into service with the nitrous solenoids mounted to the firewall and loped like sombitch when they fired it up, yet performed tranny service UNDER WARRANTY. It has a lot to do with the dealer you choose to do service with.

Originally Posted by RickyTheStorm

So basically - you can get more performance out of the car with a tune, but you will most likely loose fuel economy and emissions? Yep - won't argue that - more performance typically would do that - however everyone who is saying a tune makes there car better (performance wise) doesn't really look at those down points - hence why this would be a never-ending argument.

Of course there are also four catalytic converters on the car which hurt performance and fuel economy anyway - but make the car meet emissions.

So yes - everything on the car is designed to get the most performance and best fuel economy and maintain proper emission levels.

Now - the question - why should a tune void the warranty? Okay - GM met the emission requirements of federal law already - so by someone changing their settings to get a few extra horsepower kills the whole warranty because of gas mileage and emissions? That seems crazy - of course then again I do understand how a tune can cause an issue with the mechanics of the drive train - heck, accidentally put in the wrong timing numbers and you can screw your engine in many ways. So on the other hand I do understand the voided warranty - the thing I think would be best is if a tune stayed - and GM determined if that was the direct result of the failure - but that isn't the way the warranty is written.

So - what am I saying? I understand both points, with the exception of emissions and gas mileage - that should have absolutely nothing to do with warranty.

However, I believe that if I had my car tuned and my transmission went out because of a faulty piece in that transmission I should not be denied my warranty coverage - yea the car was tuned, but had no direct impact on the transmission.

Now onto mods. Why, oh why, should my warranty go void because I throw headers and an exhaust on the car. Okay - I increase the exhaust flow, and make the sound a heck of a lot better, but my transmission breaks - what does that have to do with exhaust. As for the engine - well with a proper tune it should have no affect on the engine.

So that brings me to another point - why can't people go and put all the mods they want on a car and get a GM CERTIFIED TUNE - be a great way to make some extra money, the numbers will be good for the actual car and people won't be restricted to just GM parts and have to go to a GM dealer. I think this would be the alternative to take - !!!!ESPECIALLY WITH A PERFORMANCE CAR!!!!

Sorry for ranting, my two cents, but the arguments will never end, it is a fight that will go on forever - the resolution is the actual problem. I think a GM Certified Tuning Station at participating dealers would kick some major ass.

Again, just my 2 cents.

I don't think anyone is wondering WHY GM should deny claims based on a tune. It's pretty obvious that everyone doesn't know what they're doing and someone is gonna screw up their tune and blow up an engine then take it to their dealer to be fixed under warranty. If you could get out of fixing a engine or tranny for any "logical" reason, wouldn't you? What if some kid used one of the do it yourself programs to totally screw it up?

Originally Posted by Temper

2. Exactly, as someone else said GM spends a lot of time tuning the engine for things they feel are important governed also by mandates. When you pay a tuner you get to CHOOSE what kind of tune you want. I fail to see the logic in GM or ANY company for voiding the warranty just because you tuned the engine. Sure, if they look at it an determine the fuel is too rich or lean. But to say, you messed with it that is why it broke is just ANOTHER company demonstrating that they want to market something but not put their money where the mouth is.

I think you fail to realize what some people CAN do and just how stupid SOME people can be. It's very hard and time consuming to try to figure out if Hypertech, Predator, A real shop, or joe blow tuned your car. If you were GM, would you keep someones warranty active if Joe Blow tuned it? I sure as hell wouldn't. Where does it stop? Are CAI's, headers, exhaust, OK? Why not a CAM, porting the head, TB, etc. It gets sticky when you start making exceptions so it's easier and CHEAPER to just not allow anyone to mess with it. This keeps your warranty repair bills lower. It's not about putting your $$ where your mouth is, it's about $$$$$$$ period.

[Temper]

Originally Posted by axis

I think you fail to realize what some people CAN do and just how stupid SOME people can be. It's very hard and time consuming to try to figure out if Hypertech, Predator, A real shop, or joe blow tuned your car. If you were GM, would you keep someones warranty active if Joe Blow tuned it? I sure as hell wouldn't. Where does it stop? Are CAI's, headers, exhaust, OK? Why not a CAM, porting the head, TB, etc. It gets sticky when you start making exceptions so it's easier and CHEAPER to just not allow anyone to mess with it. This keeps your warranty repair bills lower. It's not about putting your $$ where your mouth is, it's about $$$$$$$ period.

No, I realize with full certainty how dumb people are. But it should still be covered UNTIL GM CAN DEMONSTRATE THAT YOU CAUSED THE ISSUE. Not that you changed something so it may have caused an issue. I would say that 99% of all tunes are fine. Even when Joe does it in his basement. You are not drastically altering the vehicle. Yes, I think ALL mods that meet or exceed factory specs should be covered! What is to stop a manufacturer from saying that you used the wrong tires so they "hooked up" too well and shattered the tranny? Or maybe you didn't use oil listed on their approved list. This seemingly will never end, the main point is they should have to prove damage or meet their liability. If they don't want to figure out what happened then they should fix it!

As for what I would do, I would stand behind my word regardless of advantage. I would sell a muscle car to be used like a muscle car. When I sold a $40k car with stock 13 sec quarters I would EXPECT that it will be driven the way I marketed it. I would focus on users. I would TUNE THE CAR FOR THE USER to keep bad settings from being entered. I would be complete customer service oriented! I may even allow 99% of tuning parameters in the config of the car.

[600hp-lpe]

Originally Posted by Camarorss350

Okay so ive read most of the threads about how awesome GM's warranty is (sarcasm). Now i have a question, Will the dealer be able to tell if i tune my car, break something, put it back to stock, then take it in for service?

Basically im asking if the Computer in the 2010 camaro has the capacity to know when a stock tune has been modified then restored?

Just for the sake of avoiding hassles in the future. I cant afford any new part of this car without warranty coverage lol.

Sounds like you need the warranty coverage.. you may be better to wait until the warranty has expired, or you could afford to fix if there was a problem.

[axis]

Originally Posted by Temper

No, I realize with full certainty how dumb people are. But it should still be covered UNTIL GM CAN DEMONSTRATE THAT YOU CAUSED THE ISSUE. Not that you changed something so it may have caused an issue. I would say that 99% of all tunes are fine. Even when Joe does it in his basement. You are not drastically altering the vehicle. Yes, I think ALL mods that meet or exceed factory specs should be covered! What is to stop a manufacturer from saying that you used the wrong tires so they "hooked up" too well and shattered the tranny? Or maybe you didn't use oil listed on their approved list. This seemingly will never end, the main point is they should have to prove damage or meet their liability. If they don't want to figure out what happened then they should fix it!

As for what I would do, I would stand behind my word regardless of advantage. I would sell a muscle car to be used like a muscle car. When I sold a $40k car with stock 13 sec quarters I would EXPECT that it will be driven the way I marketed it. I would focus on users. I would TUNE THE CAR FOR THE USER to keep bad settings from being entered. I would be complete customer service oriented! I may even allow 99% of tuning parameters in the config of the car.

Don't get me wrong, I agree with you to a point. The problem is, you'll go broke letting anyone and everyone mod your car then having them dog the crap out of it. You're looking at it from the enthusiast side instead of the business side. Other companies have been FAR worse. When the Mitsu EVO turbo AWD was introduced in the US, they had service managers going out to autox's and taking pics of license plates of EVO's that were entered. They would then deny them warranty claims based on the fact they were "racing" their cars. The new Nissan GTR is similar in that they have performance settings, AT THE TOUCH OF A BUTTON, that will immediately void your drivetrain warranty the moment you push it. GM wants us to enjoy this car but you can't blame them for not wanting you to mod it up then break something, while expecting them to fix it under warranty. It would be nice and you would probably won't have any trouble getting them to do so, but we can't be too pissed if they don't. You also have to remember that this isnt' the old 3yr/36k warranty. Your car is covered under a 5yr/100K drive train warranty. To build a factory car that puts out 400+hp that you KNOW people are going to drag race, yet still cover it for the life of your loan, is pretty damn impressive. The vast majority of Camaro owners will do nothing more extensive than a CAI. While most here will probably do a little more, we are the minority.

[Temper]

Yeah right. Lets put this in perspective. GM, in 1980's, could BUY AND SELL the GDP of every country in the world except the G20 members. Today, they LOOSE MONEY ON EVERY CAR THEY SELL. They are weak and government subsidised.

This idea of screwing your base, your customer, is a flawed idea. I can afford this car, at 27, because I have devoted my life to making a good work product. I make things for customers and I stand by my work. I make it work even if it means that I don't make money on that job. Even if I loose money. I have very little in this life, my WORD is by far the most valuable. I have been ripped off many times too. No one person ever got me twice. For the honor of serving the whole world with a product I would gladly let everyone screw me once. Most people are honorable and try to keep their things nice. Most people care. That's business. This new age economic style management crap is for the birds and it has destroyed this nation. This down sizing micro managing good enough attitude leads to a bunch of Walmart crap that no one made any money off of and no one cares about. Most imporantly none of it works or lasts more than 6 months.

If GM would have never tried to compete with a far inferior product and kept all the old timers (poke poke) that swore they would never buy anything but American they wouldn't be in this mess. You can't screw your customer and expect a resell. There are also only SO MANY FIRST TIME BUYERS. PERIOD. Only a sucker would fall into a race to the bottom and GM was that sucker!

If you can't honor your word then don't give it. If you cannot sell a 400hp muscle car with a warranty then don't do it. Don't sell someone a car that by EVERY DEFINITION is made to GO FAST AND HARD, then tell people you went TOO FAST TOO HARD. That is bullshit. Now watch that bottom line - FALL!

So this is my first GM car. I bought it because it had 400hp. I bought it because it is a CAMARO known WORLD WIDE as one of the fastest production cars in the world, especially for the money. I expect a well rounded working car that is stable and a pleasure to drive. I expect all contracts to be honored fairly and equitable. If they sell a stock model in 2 years with 700hp and a supercharger then I expect I can put the same stock parts and make that mod. If I am failed in this manner then this is the first and last GM car I buy. Someone will get it right and that is the company I will buy from time and time again - for a life time.

In fact, EACH GM warranty should include 2 engines and 2 trannies with NO QUESTIONS ASKED. GM would do much better to look at making money off people rather than A CAR. In my lifetime, at the rate I have currently bought cars, I will spend an additional $364,800 on vehicles by the time I am 65. Better to loose $17,000 on 1 transmission than $348,000 on that same tranny.

To be clear, I will NEVER buy another Dodge, Chrysler, or Jeep vehicle again because of this. 2 weeks after I bought a 2008 Dodge Avenger they came out with an unlimited lifetime warranty. I was excluded. Their reason? That was a program to attract new buyers, I had already bought the car so they didn't need to worry about the fact that they made me feel like I got ripped off. Then after owning the car for 2 years, the window glass started scratching every time it went up and down because of the defective window trim. They claimed "Environmental Conditions" and I traded the car in. I now Claim they make crap. I will forever discourage people from buying a Dodge. They are now never going to sell me another car. I have had 4 jeeps and 1 car from them and have spent at least $65,000 on their cars. They have lost out on the $364,800! I buy a new car every 1-3 years. I know it is a "waste" of money. Don't care. I like new cars. I never lease ALWAYS BUY.

Ya know what I mean? We're the damn customer. Their whole reason for existence, and somehow your acting like we need to bend to their rules? You have all the power in the world with your ability to choose, and your giving it up for? What? You act like we HAVE to buy GM.

[hot ss]

dirt in the outter belt moulding = dodge crap? unrealistic end user.