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Old 08-28-2008, 09:04 PM   #324
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dont piss him off or he'll just stop production and then where would we be? yeah, ...... thats right.
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Old 08-28-2008, 10:07 PM   #325
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Thank you Fbodfather,

That just reassures me that I will be making a wise choice and purchasing this car!
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Old 08-28-2008, 10:20 PM   #326
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dont piss him off or he'll just stop production and then where would we be? yeah, ...... thats right.
Cause he makes business decisions and all
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Old 08-28-2008, 10:41 PM   #327
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first post. i have been thinking about signing up and flaguy's sarcasm has pissed me off enough to call him out. stop being so mean. your last two posts have been sarcastic as heck dude just chill out... and to everyone else hello good to be part of the crew
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Old 08-28-2008, 10:46 PM   #328
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first post. i have been thinking about signing up and flaguy's sarcasm has pissed me off enough to call him out. stop being so mean. your last two posts have been sarcastic as heck dude just chill out... and to everyone else hello good to be part of the crew
You okay now?
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Old 08-28-2008, 11:10 PM   #329
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thank you, Mr. GreenRail!

Ladies and Gentlemen --

Please -- if you haven't already done so: Go read what the various magazines are saying about just the V6s that they've driven -- and know that we're NOT DONE YET!

Read what they say about the Mustang and the Challenger in the same articles!...........

I understand that Camaro means passion. Believe me -- I've met tens of thousands of you -- and we share that great passion.

I understand that there are a lot of unknowns until you get behind the wheel.

But let me tell you once again --this Camaro was designed and engineered and built by CAMARO/FIREBIRD/CORVETTE ENTHUSIASTS.

This was NOT a case of ".....let's take Herman over there and lil Susie over here and Billy Rae over yonder and Edna Lou atwixt the other two....and let's put 'em to work on a Camero!..."

The people working on this car have a life's passion for great cars -- and most of 'em are dyed in the wool Camaro/Firebird/Corvette "foamatthemouthenthusiasts'.........

Now -- I don't know how to better explain it than that.

Couple that with the fact that we brought in our Camaro Disciples - -and we brought in Mustang and Charger and 350Z and G35 owners and talked with them until their eyes glazed over.........................

Now -- I don't mean to be rude here -- but what makes you think that you know more than a couple of thousand people????????

No question that we (or any other manufacturer) will never be able to design a car or truck that keeps everyone 100% satisfied.

If the biggest complaints we get are the gold bowtie and silver emblems and "I don't like the backup lights" -- then I am happy beyond comprehension.

As to the weight thing.........it's painfully obvious to me that most do not understand automotive engineering as it relates to durability/reliability/safety/government mandates.............

I'm telling you that "Chef Scott" is going to be serving up some words to more than one or two people in the not-too-distant future........
I understand safety and modern conveniences add a lot to weight. I understand the Mustang is an older design and therefore lacks some of these features (and IRS) keeping weight down. However, my problem comes when comparing the SS to the G8 GT. They were both built on a similar platform with similar drivetrains. The G8 has two extra doors, one extra seat, more standard options (at least things I assume the Camaro SS won't have standard), and its a full size sedan as opposed to the midsize coupe that is the Camaro, yet they weight almost exactly the same. I just don't understand
how that happened. As I've said before, if the Camaro acts like the V8 and seems to magically shrink around you as you drive it, then this isn't a problem at all. However since some reviews are making mention of above-average weight, I think it is a valid point to consider.
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Old 08-28-2008, 11:13 PM   #330
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I understand safety and modern conveniences add a lot to weight. I understand the Mustang is an older design and therefore lacks some of these features (and IRS) keeping weight down. However, my problem comes when comparing the SS to the G8 GT. They were both built on a similar platform with similar drivetrains. The G8 has two extra doors, one extra seat, more standard options (at least things I assume the Camaro SS won't have standard), and its a full size sedan as opposed to the midsize coupe that is the Camaro, yet they weight almost exactly the same. I just don't understand
how that happened. As I've said before, if the Camaro acts like the V8 and seems to magically shrink around you as you drive it, then this isn't a problem at all. However since some reviews are making mention of above-average weight, I think it is a valid point to consider.
Have you seen under the car yet? The Camaro has a very large sack it needs to tote around.
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Old 08-28-2008, 11:15 PM   #331
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:5thgenvert: THESE ARE DEFINITELY AWESOME PICTURES, THANKS!!!!! IT LOOKS GREAT.
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Old 08-28-2008, 11:20 PM   #332
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As to the weight thing.........it's painfully obvious to me that most do not understand automotive engineering as it relates to durability/reliability/safety/government mandates...............
In all seriousness, this reminds me of a show I was watching on how Boeing and Lockheed Martin were competing for a government contract on a new airplane design. When one of the LM engineers got into an arguement with a federal rep over cost and weight, here was the engineer's response, plain and simple:

"You have your choice between lightweight, cheap, and safe. Pick two."

I think that pretty much sums it up.
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Old 08-28-2008, 11:24 PM   #333
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In all seriousness, this reminds me of a show I was watching on how Boeing and Lockheed Martin were competing for a government contract on a new airplane design. When one of the LM engineers got into an arguement with a federal rep over cost and weight, here was the engineer's response, plain and simple:

"You have your choice between lightweight, cheap, and safe. Pick two."

I think that pretty much sums it up.
Definately gotta go with lightweight and cheap there. Not in an airplane of course, but Camaro...absolutely.

However your post makes sense because in reality, auto manufacturing by law must incorporate safety. And safety = weight
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Old 08-29-2008, 01:53 AM   #334
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stovt001 View Post
I understand safety and modern conveniences add a lot to weight. I understand the Mustang is an older design and therefore lacks some of these features (and IRS) keeping weight down. However, my problem comes when comparing the SS to the G8 GT. They were both built on a similar platform with similar drivetrains. The G8 has two extra doors, one extra seat, more standard options (at least things I assume the Camaro SS won't have standard), and its a full size sedan as opposed to the midsize coupe that is the Camaro, yet they weight almost exactly the same. I just don't understand
how that happened. As I've said before, if the Camaro acts like the V8 and seems to magically shrink around you as you drive it, then this isn't a problem at all. However since some reviews are making mention of above-average weight, I think it is a valid point to consider.
The Camaro was probably beefed up so that the car could be built up into a track monster, something which few G8 owners are expected to do. Many of these structural upgrades would also be in the V6 cars to spread the cost. Plus, things like adding an extra seat in the back doesn't add much weight, neither do an extra set of doors. Plus, dimensionally the midsized Camaro is only a few inches shorter than the G8 -in length and height, but is also wider so weight lost in length is added in width (more or less). This is all just speculation on my part though.



I would love to hear an engineer from GM come out and explain in about 1 sentence why the Camaro weighs so much (details, not just 'safety') but I know its not going to be that easy. Thousands of hours of work on analysis and optimization and hundreds of hours of arguing went into creating the 5th Gen Camaro. For them to go through every design decision related to weight would probably take an entire book. I know there is a reason for everything, they would never do something like this just to piss us off, but I don't know what those decisions are .

One thing for everyone to also keep in mind the fact that the Camaro is actually lighter than the G8. When Dodge shortened the Charger to make the Challenger, it still weighed the same.

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In all seriousness, this reminds me of a show I was watching on how Boeing and Lockheed Martin were competing for a government contract on a new airplane design. When one of the LM engineers got into an arguement with a federal rep over cost and weight, here was the engineer's response, plain and simple:

"You have your choice between lightweight, cheap, and safe. Pick two."

I think that pretty much sums it up.
I saw that, it was for the Joint Strike Fighter, I think. Could have been for the F22 but I don't think so. Either way, Lockheed won. And as for that quote I highlighted, every engineer gets told that in their first year of university. Variations include :cheap, reliable, effective (most popular); fast, cheap, reliable; But the basic lesson is always "if you want it all, its gonna be expensive"
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My sister's dentist's brother's cousin's housekeeper's dog-breeder's nephew sells coffee filters to the company that provides coffee to General Motors......
........and HE WOULD KNOW!!!!
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Old 08-29-2008, 03:17 AM   #335
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I'm telling you that "Chef Scott" is going to be serving up some words to more than one or two people in the not-too-distant future........


This will keep me standing by!
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Old 08-29-2008, 04:14 AM   #336
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The Camaro was probably beefed up so that the car could be built up into a track monster, something which few G8 owners are expected to do. Many of these structural upgrades would also be in the V6 cars to spread the cost. Plus, things like adding an extra seat in the back doesn't add much weight, neither do an extra set of doors. Plus, dimensionally the midsized Camaro is only a few inches shorter than the G8 -in length and height, but is also wider so weight lost in length is added in width (more or less). This is all just speculation on my part though.
maybe the car is beefed up to handle more horses ie: supercharger
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Old 08-29-2008, 08:06 AM   #337
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Here's one of them. I still think it is inferior to the concept. Chubby cheeks
I never thought I'd say this, but the production front end, especially the turn signals looks waaaaaaaaay more aggresive and stylish. the bumpers is great as well. some of you guys are sticking way too much to the concept vision IMHO, which really doesn't have to be the ultimate one...
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Old 08-29-2008, 08:13 AM   #338
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thank you, Mr. GreenRail!

This was NOT a case of ".....let's take Herman over there and lil Susie over here and Billy Rae over yonder and Edna Lou atwixt the other two....and let's put 'em to work on a Camero!..."
What's a Camero?
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Old 08-29-2008, 08:39 AM   #339
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What's a Camero?
I used that as a way of showing that we didn't just pick anyone to work on the new Camaro -- the team has PASSION for this product.......and none of us could possibly be prouder of what we're about to present to you......
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Old 08-29-2008, 09:28 AM   #340
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I hope passion also means I can drool over the car like an infant, and receive several speeding tickets in the 1st week of owning the new Camaro.
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