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Old 08-28-2008, 09:20 PM   #326
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dont piss him off or he'll just stop production and then where would we be? yeah, ...... thats right.
Cause he makes business decisions and all
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Old 08-28-2008, 09:41 PM   #327
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first post. i have been thinking about signing up and flaguy's sarcasm has pissed me off enough to call him out. stop being so mean. your last two posts have been sarcastic as heck dude just chill out... and to everyone else hello good to be part of the crew
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Old 08-28-2008, 09:46 PM   #328
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first post. i have been thinking about signing up and flaguy's sarcasm has pissed me off enough to call him out. stop being so mean. your last two posts have been sarcastic as heck dude just chill out... and to everyone else hello good to be part of the crew
You okay now?
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Old 08-28-2008, 10:10 PM   #329
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thank you, Mr. GreenRail!

Ladies and Gentlemen --

Please -- if you haven't already done so: Go read what the various magazines are saying about just the V6s that they've driven -- and know that we're NOT DONE YET!

Read what they say about the Mustang and the Challenger in the same articles!...........

I understand that Camaro means passion. Believe me -- I've met tens of thousands of you -- and we share that great passion.

I understand that there are a lot of unknowns until you get behind the wheel.

But let me tell you once again --this Camaro was designed and engineered and built by CAMARO/FIREBIRD/CORVETTE ENTHUSIASTS.

This was NOT a case of ".....let's take Herman over there and lil Susie over here and Billy Rae over yonder and Edna Lou atwixt the other two....and let's put 'em to work on a Camero!..."

The people working on this car have a life's passion for great cars -- and most of 'em are dyed in the wool Camaro/Firebird/Corvette "foamatthemouthenthusiasts'.........

Now -- I don't know how to better explain it than that.

Couple that with the fact that we brought in our Camaro Disciples - -and we brought in Mustang and Charger and 350Z and G35 owners and talked with them until their eyes glazed over.........................

Now -- I don't mean to be rude here -- but what makes you think that you know more than a couple of thousand people????????

No question that we (or any other manufacturer) will never be able to design a car or truck that keeps everyone 100% satisfied.

If the biggest complaints we get are the gold bowtie and silver emblems and "I don't like the backup lights" -- then I am happy beyond comprehension.

As to the weight thing.........it's painfully obvious to me that most do not understand automotive engineering as it relates to durability/reliability/safety/government mandates.............

I'm telling you that "Chef Scott" is going to be serving up some words to more than one or two people in the not-too-distant future........
I understand safety and modern conveniences add a lot to weight. I understand the Mustang is an older design and therefore lacks some of these features (and IRS) keeping weight down. However, my problem comes when comparing the SS to the G8 GT. They were both built on a similar platform with similar drivetrains. The G8 has two extra doors, one extra seat, more standard options (at least things I assume the Camaro SS won't have standard), and its a full size sedan as opposed to the midsize coupe that is the Camaro, yet they weight almost exactly the same. I just don't understand
how that happened. As I've said before, if the Camaro acts like the V8 and seems to magically shrink around you as you drive it, then this isn't a problem at all. However since some reviews are making mention of above-average weight, I think it is a valid point to consider.
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Old 08-28-2008, 10:13 PM   #330
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I understand safety and modern conveniences add a lot to weight. I understand the Mustang is an older design and therefore lacks some of these features (and IRS) keeping weight down. However, my problem comes when comparing the SS to the G8 GT. They were both built on a similar platform with similar drivetrains. The G8 has two extra doors, one extra seat, more standard options (at least things I assume the Camaro SS won't have standard), and its a full size sedan as opposed to the midsize coupe that is the Camaro, yet they weight almost exactly the same. I just don't understand
how that happened. As I've said before, if the Camaro acts like the V8 and seems to magically shrink around you as you drive it, then this isn't a problem at all. However since some reviews are making mention of above-average weight, I think it is a valid point to consider.
Have you seen under the car yet? The Camaro has a very large sack it needs to tote around.
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Old 08-28-2008, 10:15 PM   #331
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:5thgenvert: THESE ARE DEFINITELY AWESOME PICTURES, THANKS!!!!! IT LOOKS GREAT.
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Old 08-28-2008, 10:20 PM   #332
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As to the weight thing.........it's painfully obvious to me that most do not understand automotive engineering as it relates to durability/reliability/safety/government mandates...............
In all seriousness, this reminds me of a show I was watching on how Boeing and Lockheed Martin were competing for a government contract on a new airplane design. When one of the LM engineers got into an arguement with a federal rep over cost and weight, here was the engineer's response, plain and simple:

"You have your choice between lightweight, cheap, and safe. Pick two."

I think that pretty much sums it up.
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Old 08-28-2008, 10:24 PM   #333
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In all seriousness, this reminds me of a show I was watching on how Boeing and Lockheed Martin were competing for a government contract on a new airplane design. When one of the LM engineers got into an arguement with a federal rep over cost and weight, here was the engineer's response, plain and simple:

"You have your choice between lightweight, cheap, and safe. Pick two."

I think that pretty much sums it up.
Definately gotta go with lightweight and cheap there. Not in an airplane of course, but Camaro...absolutely.

However your post makes sense because in reality, auto manufacturing by law must incorporate safety. And safety = weight
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Old 08-29-2008, 12:53 AM   #334
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I understand safety and modern conveniences add a lot to weight. I understand the Mustang is an older design and therefore lacks some of these features (and IRS) keeping weight down. However, my problem comes when comparing the SS to the G8 GT. They were both built on a similar platform with similar drivetrains. The G8 has two extra doors, one extra seat, more standard options (at least things I assume the Camaro SS won't have standard), and its a full size sedan as opposed to the midsize coupe that is the Camaro, yet they weight almost exactly the same. I just don't understand
how that happened. As I've said before, if the Camaro acts like the V8 and seems to magically shrink around you as you drive it, then this isn't a problem at all. However since some reviews are making mention of above-average weight, I think it is a valid point to consider.
The Camaro was probably beefed up so that the car could be built up into a track monster, something which few G8 owners are expected to do. Many of these structural upgrades would also be in the V6 cars to spread the cost. Plus, things like adding an extra seat in the back doesn't add much weight, neither do an extra set of doors. Plus, dimensionally the midsized Camaro is only a few inches shorter than the G8 -in length and height, but is also wider so weight lost in length is added in width (more or less). This is all just speculation on my part though.



I would love to hear an engineer from GM come out and explain in about 1 sentence why the Camaro weighs so much (details, not just 'safety') but I know its not going to be that easy. Thousands of hours of work on analysis and optimization and hundreds of hours of arguing went into creating the 5th Gen Camaro. For them to go through every design decision related to weight would probably take an entire book. I know there is a reason for everything, they would never do something like this just to piss us off, but I don't know what those decisions are .

One thing for everyone to also keep in mind the fact that the Camaro is actually lighter than the G8. When Dodge shortened the Charger to make the Challenger, it still weighed the same.

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In all seriousness, this reminds me of a show I was watching on how Boeing and Lockheed Martin were competing for a government contract on a new airplane design. When one of the LM engineers got into an arguement with a federal rep over cost and weight, here was the engineer's response, plain and simple:

"You have your choice between lightweight, cheap, and safe. Pick two."

I think that pretty much sums it up.
I saw that, it was for the Joint Strike Fighter, I think. Could have been for the F22 but I don't think so. Either way, Lockheed won. And as for that quote I highlighted, every engineer gets told that in their first year of university. Variations include :cheap, reliable, effective (most popular); fast, cheap, reliable; But the basic lesson is always "if you want it all, its gonna be expensive"
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Old 08-29-2008, 02:17 AM   #335
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I'm telling you that "Chef Scott" is going to be serving up some words to more than one or two people in the not-too-distant future........


This will keep me standing by!
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Old 08-29-2008, 03:14 AM   #336
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The Camaro was probably beefed up so that the car could be built up into a track monster, something which few G8 owners are expected to do. Many of these structural upgrades would also be in the V6 cars to spread the cost. Plus, things like adding an extra seat in the back doesn't add much weight, neither do an extra set of doors. Plus, dimensionally the midsized Camaro is only a few inches shorter than the G8 -in length and height, but is also wider so weight lost in length is added in width (more or less). This is all just speculation on my part though.
maybe the car is beefed up to handle more horses ie: supercharger
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Old 08-29-2008, 07:06 AM   #337
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Here's one of them. I still think it is inferior to the concept. Chubby cheeks
I never thought I'd say this, but the production front end, especially the turn signals looks waaaaaaaaay more aggresive and stylish. the bumpers is great as well. some of you guys are sticking way too much to the concept vision IMHO, which really doesn't have to be the ultimate one...
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Old 08-29-2008, 07:13 AM   #338
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thank you, Mr. GreenRail!

This was NOT a case of ".....let's take Herman over there and lil Susie over here and Billy Rae over yonder and Edna Lou atwixt the other two....and let's put 'em to work on a Camero!..."
What's a Camero?
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Old 08-29-2008, 07:39 AM   #339
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What's a Camero?
I used that as a way of showing that we didn't just pick anyone to work on the new Camaro -- the team has PASSION for this product.......and none of us could possibly be prouder of what we're about to present to you......
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Old 08-29-2008, 08:28 AM   #340
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I hope passion also means I can drool over the car like an infant, and receive several speeding tickets in the 1st week of owning the new Camaro.
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Old 08-29-2008, 09:16 AM   #341
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I used that as a way of showing that we didn't just pick anyone to work on the new Camaro -- the team has PASSION for this product.......and none of us could possibly be prouder of what we're about to present to you......
I knew you did it on purpose. I just remember how much flack Camero got for his username when he started posting.

I can't wait until GM releases the "Build Your Own" section on the Chevy website. I can see myself spending hours making my own dream car.

The car I've wanted since I was denied a best friend's immaculate '94 Z28 because I couldn't afford it. He needed to sell it to buy an engagement ring and he begged me to buy it so he could keep it close, but eventually sold it on Ebay. That Camaro was by far the most fun I've ever ever had driving a car. He's coming with me to pick up my SS/RS in June of next year. I'm sure it's going to be an emotional event for all.

I can't begin to say how thankful I am to GM for bringing this car back from the dead. Thank you Scott, and everyone else at GM who put everything into this car. Calling it just a car doesn't even feel right; to me it feels like something more.

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Old 08-29-2008, 09:27 AM   #342
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I used that as a way of showing that we didn't just pick anyone to work on the new Camaro -- the team has PASSION for this product.......and none of us could possibly be prouder of what we're about to present to you......
I don't think that there were any questions about this. It's long been known that it was jointly developed by the best of the best sports car enthusiast/engineers within GM.

Anyone else get the "WEIGH IN ON THE NEW CAMARO" e-mail this week? I just filled out the complete survey on the vehicle and was pleasantly surprised on the pricing ranges on the options for the car.
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Old 08-29-2008, 09:52 AM   #343
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[QUOTE=stovt001;121008]I understand safety and modern conveniences add a lot to weight. I understand the Mustang is an older design and therefore lacks some of these features (and IRS) keeping weight down. However, my problem comes when comparing the SS to the G8 GT. They were both built on a similar platform with similar drivetrains. The G8 has two extra doors, one extra seat, more standard options (at least things I assume the Camaro SS won't have standard), and its a full size sedan as opposed to the midsize coupe that is the Camaro, yet they weight almost exactly the same. I just don't understand
how that happened. As I've said before, if the Camaro acts like the V8 and seems to magically shrink around you as you drive it, then this isn't a problem at all. However since some reviews are making mention of above-average weight, I think it is a valid point to consider.[/QUOTE]

And what reviews might those be? Some of the early reviews of the V-6 have been very positive. None of the major Mags or Websites has published anything about the SS version yet. everything has been pure speculation up to this point in time.

What is even more amazing to me is the stream of messages on this and several other boards slapping GM around for the lap times around the Nurburgring. Folks, you gotta keep in mind that those times were done with a preproduction car. (IVER?)

The HHR SS times were done with an actual production car. Some how, I have a suspicion, that more will come on this as the actual production cars come into existance.


Scott is so right, these vehicles were not created in vacuum. There was a lot of research and engineering done on them. In addition, based on Scott's comments, a lot of this involved people outside the "Camaro Community." Which is a good thing. Let's face it as Camaro Enthusiasts we have a huge bias towards our beloved favorite car. (and there is nothing wrong with that - It is known as Passion!)

But, if GM was to depend on us to support production, they would be dead in the water. They need to sell as many as they can and not just to the "Camaro Community."

The reality here is that this is a consumer driven business. Not everyone wants or needs a Sports Coupe like the Camaro. Which is why GM and other manufacturers have the diverse universe of choices on the market. Some need coupes, Some need Sedans, Some need commuter cars, trucks, suv's or whatever suits their purpose.

The comments about the similarity between the weight of the G8 and the Camaro, leads me to believe that a lot of the weight in each vehicle stems from the varous safety, environmental, and structural requirements of these vehicles.

It ends up as to how you package and stretch them to meet the needs of the market for which each vehicle is intended.
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Old 08-29-2008, 12:20 PM   #344
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I can't remember which articles, but a few made mention of it being heavy, though none said the weight retarded performance. As long as that is the case and you don't notice the weight, it doesn't worry me. In fact I always felt the G8 was light for what it was, a RWD V8 powered full-size sedan. What DGthe3 said makes a ton of sense. I think all reviews noted how rigid and solid it felt, so reinforcements probably made up the difference in weight lost from the G8 due to the Camaro being smaller and probably not as fully equipped.
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Old 08-29-2008, 12:21 PM   #345
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I understand safety and modern conveniences add a lot to weight. I understand the Mustang is an older design and therefore lacks some of these features (and IRS) keeping weight down. However, my problem comes when comparing the SS to the G8 GT. They were both built on a similar platform with similar drivetrains. The G8 has two extra doors, one extra seat, more standard options (at least things I assume the Camaro SS won't have standard), and its a full size sedan as opposed to the midsize coupe that is the Camaro, yet they weight almost exactly the same. I just don't understand
how that happened. As I've said before, if the Camaro acts like the V8 and seems to magically shrink around you as you drive it, then this isn't a problem at all. However since some reviews are making mention of above-average weight, I think it is a valid point to consider.
That G8 you're talking about, the one with the weight similarity to the Camaro? That car has been praised time and again by the auto mags for its precise handling and power. They all rave over how nimble a track performer it is, even for a four door sedan. It has won in every comparison test I can think of. Now I pose a question to you. Why are you worried about how the weight will affect Camaro's sportability when this similarly equipped car is a top class performer? Keep in mind that it's also has two more doors and 50 less horses, and is minus a six speed transmission.

I hope this settles the community weight concern.
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Old 08-29-2008, 12:34 PM   #346
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Well my post above yours answers part of that, but to add: the G8, being a full-size sedan, went up against a lot of heavier cars as most RWD V8 powered full-size sedans weight well north of 4000 lbs. The V6 Camaro, on the other hand, will be going up against lighter cars like the RX8 and the Mustang. I'm not sure what the weight of the Genesis coupe is, but if it is lighter throw it on that list too. I'm not saying it has to be that light to beat them (clearly it will beat them regardless) but lower weight does help.
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Old 08-29-2008, 12:40 PM   #347
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Well my post above yours answers part of that, but to add: the G8, being a full-size sedan, went up against a lot of heavier cars as most RWD V8 powered full-size sedans weight well north of 4000 lbs. The V6 Camaro, on the other hand, will be going up against lighter cars like the RX8 and the Mustang. I'm not sure what the weight of the Genesis coupe is, but if it is lighter throw it on that list too. I'm not saying it has to be that light to beat them (clearly it will beat them regardless) but lower weight does help.
The only time the V6 Camaro will lose is if they compare it out of its class. In it's class of RWD V6 sports coupes (price range 19-24k) it completely dominates.
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Old 08-29-2008, 02:30 PM   #348
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Definately gotta go with lightweight and cheap there. Not in an airplane of course, but Camaro...absolutely.

However your post makes sense because in reality, auto manufacturing by law must incorporate safety. And safety = weight
you should lose the corolla and get a nice 2000 ss
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Old 08-29-2008, 03:49 PM   #349
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you should lose the corolla and get a nice 2000 ss
No way in hell. Its has just a tick over 30k miles and will be paid off within a year. Once it gets paid off it's SS (5th gen not 4th) time for daddy!!! But no, Corolla is staying. Great for gas and never had a problem. Oh....and the 100k mile bumper to bumper warranty doesn't hurt.
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Old 08-29-2008, 03:50 PM   #350
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How stuff gets taken so far so out of hand I will never ever know.

Guys, chances are you'll never meet any of these faceless people you interact with on this board, so let go of whatever disagreements you have with one another, and don't assume you know what context someone else is speaking in because unless you're that person you really don't know. If you want to debate with someone take it off the thread and do it in a PM. This stuff is getting ridiculous.
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