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Old 12-29-2009, 06:03 AM   #43
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Not to stir the pot, but if you Turbo a V6, how much weight do you save over the V8, once you add in an intercooler, and all the piping, yo end up at roughly the same HP as a V8 SS..............?
Good point...... thats exactly why its not a 1LE
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Old 12-29-2009, 06:40 AM   #44
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I had a 1990 1LE. 1 of 34 305 TPI's... I sold it to a friend for what I paid and he wound up turning a profit... The roll up windows and no air got old though.
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Old 12-29-2009, 06:57 AM   #45
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1LE would be awesome and they definitely need to offer rear end gears as options.
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Old 12-29-2009, 10:22 AM   #46
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Which could just be accomplished by stripping a 1SS (as if it isnt stripped enough) but the difference between a 1SS and 1LT is literally the engine, wheels, brakes, and suspension, all things youd want in a 1LE (altho the wheels are like lead bricks, I'd install something lighter). Otherwise you have the spoiler and nose, which is barely any savings, there was a lot more body differences in the old cars, and huge amounts of equipment differences none of which exist now. I question the fascination with the V6 nose because you gain nothing otehr than it looking like a lower model, theres no weight savings, nothing.

JMO a 1SS stripped down would make an excellent start to a 1LE, it would retain the brand identification of the V8 with the SS nose, but be lighter than all and therefore a great base to start from....

You can't get away from the insurance rates, the car would still be rated based ont he fact theres a V8 under the hood. Insurance companies are far wiser than they were many years ago.
You would use the cheapest body, which would be the LS body. A 1LE would not have fancy wheels or a spoiler (one more thing to come loose and fly off the vehicle at exceedingly high speed while cornering). If its cheaper to leave the base LS interior features...then leave them. But it would at least need a small V8 & corresponding tranny, suspension upgrades, better rear end, and better breaking.
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Old 12-29-2009, 10:30 AM   #47
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A 1SS is likely to be the least festooned RPO V8 offered...for all the reasons outlined above. 2000 Camaro 1LEs, from '88 to '02, does not present a very compelling business case for a V8 1LE's "return"...

Race car builders have the option of GM PP's "body-in-white" Program to build from. Combined with a write-off SS (which, with winter now here, are increasing in numbers, daily!), just like Burger King, you can "have it your way"...

As mentioned earlier in the Camaro "history lesson", the '67 Z28 was a Package created through Vince Piggins essentially for Trans Am Series qualification. A basic car with a high-winding, relatively torqueless engine (kinda sounds like the LLT, no?) which anyone who drove a '67-'69 showroom Z28 can confirm. Suspension upgrades beyond the SS350. Front Disc Brakes. NO stripes or spoilers or badging to speak of, on most '67s...

Soooooooo...use an LS or 1LT as the basis for creating a truly "heritage-inspired" Camaro (and my vote would be for the LS). Upgraded Brembos and bars and bushings. Throw in a 91-octane "tune" and, perhaps, the already GM PP-"validated" exhaust and CAI...voila! 350 (a magic GM/Camaro number!) hp, canyon carving vehicle dynamics (with the 20s and Summer-only rubber), 30 mpg CAFE-friendly "economy", and instant Demand for a V6 version GM desperately NEEDS! One step ahead of the EcoBoost Mustang, pending...and legitimately call it the 1LE...

1LE was a '98-'02 outgrowth, in the US, for a Canadian-conceived and -developed Package tagged "R7U". These cars, first manufactured for the '86 Model Year, were purpose-built for the GM/Player's Challenge Series for IROCS and Trans Ams, and were developed by GM Canada for a CASC-sanctioned Series which raced as a support to ChampCar races in Toronto and Sanair, as well as endurance series run at Mosport and other venues. A separate Series was run in the West. The Series was developed by Martin Chenhall, Earl Dickenson and Bill Ball, with funding from GM Canada and Player's (Imperial Tobacco), and was the tool used by (among others) Ron Fellows to successfully (!!) develop his sedan-racing skills. In fact, Earl Dickenson was the man who introduced Ron to Herb Fishel at GM Racing...and the rest, they say, is history...

LS...350 hp...Brembos...bars...bushings...20s...NO spoilers...NO gingerbread... Light and agile, NOT "overwhelming", but "talented"...

As a relatively unknown/unappreciated Package in '67, Chev sold 602. NO internet to pass the word along. By '69 (with its extended Model run), numbers swelled to 19,000+, and today a '69 Z28 is considered THE coveted Camaro to own. That's why there were 19,000 sold, and today there's a few 100,000 of them on the roads!

But the car was NEVER the quickest/fastest 1st Gen Camaro, off the showroom floor.

History CAN repeat itself. Paint some in Sunoco Blue, or Smokey Black-n-Gold, and see what happens!!!

What has been the sustained success secret to the Mustang? "Exciting", volume-based Packages for the V6 versions ("Pony", anyone?). Camaro MUST do the same...and THIS version would be unlike anything currently at the Ford Store...

Or, as usual, will GM simply wait till someone else does it to show THEM the way?!

Since us taxpayers own the bulk of the Company, maybe they ottta start listening to the Market (their true bosses) and build something the Market is overdue, and potentially VERY hungry, for...
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Old 12-29-2009, 10:31 AM   #48
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You would use the cheapest body, which would be the LS body. A 1LE would not have fancy wheels or a spoiler (one more thing to come loose and fly off the vehicle at exceedingly high speed while cornering). If its cheaper to leave the base LS interior features...then leave them. But it would at least need a small V8 & corresponding tranny, suspension upgrades, better rear end, and better breaking.
However the LS frame can't accept a V8 as I mentioned in another post. There are physically no real differences betwen the LS body and an SS body aside from the engine cradle

The only difference between the LS and the 1LT and 1SS is the availability of certain options, the interiors are trimmed out the same, you just can't order anything on the LS. As well it doesn't have fog lights. Chck chevy.com if you don't believe me the comparison link will show you, they are all the same.

All GM would have to do to make a 1LE is to make the option code on the 1SS lock out all other options, trim it out like an LS (its all the same parts anyway), and come up with some lighter wheels that still fit over the big brakes.

GM has done it before in exactly this way, maybe for 2011 or 2012 they will do it again.
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Old 12-29-2009, 10:50 AM   #49
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A 1SS is likely to be the least festooned RPO V8 offered...for all the reasons outlined above. 2000 Camaro 1LEs, from '88 to '02, does not present a very compelling business case for a V8 1LE's "return"...

Race car builders have the option of GM PP's "body-in-white" Program to build from. Combined with a write-off SS (which, with winter now here, are increasing in numbers, daily!), just like Burger King, you can "have it your way"...

As mentioned earlier in the Camaro "history lesson", the '67 Z28 was a Package created through Vince Piggins essentially for Trans Am Series qualification. A basic car with a high-winding, relatively torqueless engine (kinda sounds like the LLT, no?) which anyone who drove a '67-'69 showroom Z28 can confirm. Suspension upgrades beyond the SS350. Front Disc Brakes. NO stripes or spoilers or badging to speak of, on most '67s...

Soooooooo...use an LS or 1LT as the basis for creating a truly "heritage-inspired" Camaro (and my vote would be for the LS). Upgraded Brembos and bars and bushings. Throw in a 91-octane "tune" and, perhaps, the already GM PP-"validated" exhaust and CAI...voila! 350 (a magic GM/Camaro number!) hp, canyon carving vehicle dynamics (with the 20s and Summer-only rubber), 30 mpg CAFE-friendly "economy", and instant Demand for a V6 version GM desperately NEEDS! One step ahead of the EcoBoost Mustang, pending...and legitimately call it the 1LE...

1LE was a '98-'02 outgrowth, in the US, for a Canadian-conceived and -developed Package tagged "R7U". These cars, first manufactured for the '86 Model Year, were purpose-built for the GM/Player's Challenge Series for IROCS and Trans Ams, and were developed by GM Canada for a CASC-sanctioned Series which raced as a support to ChampCar races in Toronto and Sanair, as well as endurance series run at Mosport and other venues. A separate Series was run in the West. The Series was developed by Martin Chenhall, Earl Dickenson and Bill Ball, with funding from GM Canada and Player's (Imperial Tobacco), and was the tool used by (among others) Ron Fellows to successfully (!!) develop his sedan-racing skills. In fact, Earl Dickenson was the man who introduced Ron to Herb Fishel at GM Racing...and the rest, they say, is history...

LS...350 hp...Brembos...bars...bushings...20s...NO spoilers...NO gingerbread... Light and agile, NOT "overwhelming", but "talented"...

As a relatively unknown/unappreciated Package in '67, Chev sold 602. NO internet to pass the word along. By '69 (with its extended Model run), numbers swelled to 19,000+, and today a '69 Z28 is considered THE coveted Camaro to own. That's why there were 19,000 sold, and today there's a few 100,000 of them on the roads!

But the car was NEVER the quickest/fastest 1st Gen Camaro, off the showroom floor.

History CAN repeat itself. Paint some in Sunoco Blue, or Smokey Black-n-Gold, and see what happens!!!

What has been the sustained success secret to the Mustang? "Exciting", volume-based Packages for the V6 versions ("Pony", anyone?). Camaro MUST do the same...and THIS version would be unlike anything currently at the Ford Store...

Or, as usual, will GM simply wait till someone else does it to show THEM the way?!
And build a camaro that will get dropped on the race track and twisty roads by a base Mustang GT or even V6 with the Track Pack...

The weight difference between an LS and a 1SS is 69 lbs... Check chevy.com if you don't believe me. Even jacking the V6 HP by 50 will get you nowhere.

You are missing the point of 1LE. It was a car a guy could buy, cage, and go showroom stock racing with. Or Autocross the hell out of it. This car is HEAVY even in V6 form, a 1LE will NOT be competitive with the 350Zs and Hyundai Genesises of the class it will be in.

I agree there should be some "hot" V6 versions like Ford has with the Mustang, but your idea is NOT a 1LE car and surely not a Z28 either.

* ps the Z28 DID have stripes, and chrome and shiny rally wheels. What you describe is more of a COPO car that the Z28 never was, it was a homologation special but still had some things to make it a daily car and indicate its racing connection.
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Old 12-29-2009, 10:55 AM   #50
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A 1SS is likely to be the least festooned RPO V8 offered...for all the reasons outlined above. 2000 Camaro 1LEs, from '88 to '02, does not present a very compelling business case for a V8 1LE's "return"...

Race car builders have the option of GM PP's "body-in-white" Program to build from. Combined with a write-off SS (which, with winter now here, are increasing in numbers, daily!), just like Burger King, you can "have it your way"...

As mentioned earlier in the Camaro "history lesson", the '67 Z28 was a Package created through Vince Piggins essentially for Trans Am Series qualification. A basic car with a high-winding, relatively torqueless engine (kinda sounds like the LLT, no?) which anyone who drove a '67-'69 showroom Z28 can confirm. Suspension upgrades beyond the SS350. Front Disc Brakes. NO stripes or spoilers or badging to speak of, on most '67s...

Soooooooo...use an LS or 1LT as the basis for creating a truly "heritage-inspired" Camaro (and my vote would be for the LS). Upgraded Brembos and bars and bushings. Throw in a 91-octane "tune" and, perhaps, the already GM PP-"validated" exhaust and CAI...voila! 350 (a magic GM/Camaro number!) hp, canyon carving vehicle dynamics (with the 20s and Summer-only rubber), 30 mpg CAFE-friendly "economy", and instant Demand for a V6 version GM desperately NEEDS! One step ahead of the EcoBoost Mustang, pending...and legitimately call it the 1LE...

1LE was a '98-'02 outgrowth, in the US, for a Canadian-conceived and -developed Package tagged "R7U". These cars, first manufactured for the '86 Model Year, were purpose-built for the GM/Player's Challenge Series for IROCS and Trans Ams, and were developed by GM Canada for a CASC-sanctioned Series which raced as a support to ChampCar races in Toronto and Sanair, as well as endurance series run at Mosport and other venues. A separate Series was run in the West. The Series was developed by Martin Chenhall, Earl Dickenson and Bill Ball, with funding from GM Canada and Player's (Imperial Tobacco), and was the tool used by (among others) Ron Fellows to successfully (!!) develop his sedan-racing skills. In fact, Earl Dickenson was the man who introduced Ron to Herb Fishel at GM Racing...and the rest, they say, is history...

LS...350 hp...Brembos...bars...bushings...20s...NO spoilers...NO gingerbread... Light and agile, NOT "overwhelming", but "talented"...

As a relatively unknown/unappreciated Package in '67, Chev sold 602. NO internet to pass the word along. By '69 (with its extended Model run), numbers swelled to 19,000+, and today a '69 Z28 is considered THE coveted Camaro to own. That's why there were 19,000 sold, and today there's a few 100,000 of them on the roads!

But the car was NEVER the quickest/fastest 1st Gen Camaro, off the showroom floor.

History CAN repeat itself. Paint some in Sunoco Blue, or Smokey Black-n-Gold, and see what happens!!!

What has been the sustained success secret to the Mustang? "Exciting", volume-based Packages for the V6 versions ("Pony", anyone?). Camaro MUST do the same...and THIS version would be unlike anything currently at the Ford Store...

Or, as usual, will GM simply wait till someone else does it to show THEM the way?!

Since us taxpayers own the bulk of the Company, maybe they ottta start listening to the Market (their true bosses) and build something the Market is overdue, and potentially VERY hungry, for...
I like your ideas but I think the car would handle better with 18" wheels.
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Old 12-29-2009, 11:07 AM   #51
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Agreed, but if the premise requires "already-on-the-shelf" parts where possible, the 20s are the "only" performance-oriented rubber they have. Otherwise, validated wheels (I'm sorry, this car deserves light forged wheels with grippy rubber) and suitable tires will bog the process...

Scott/John/Cheryl/Al ARE aware of this "concept", but since they will NOT consider "second sticker" partnerships to see this car happen, either THEY do it or they FULLY SUPPORT AND ENCOURAGE "others" to do it...and they DO have DTC's number...
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Old 12-29-2009, 11:33 AM   #52
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I don't know where you get your data but if you exclude the fact that the engine is bigger in the SS the LS/LT does not weigh less its the same damn chassis, frame, sound deadening, etc. They are identical vehicles aside from the engines and suspension components. They are all built off the same thing. You won't get any sort of extra weight savings of using a 1LT vs a 1SS they are the identical car. If you took a "1LT" and put all the 1SS performance parts in it you would have a 1SS its identical. The 1SS weighs more because it has a physically bigger engine that weighs more. The LS loses a couple details like the foglights and the ability to add certain options which would be easy enough to do to a 1SS.

Back in the day the lower V6 models had less equipment, options, chrome etc, which made a stripper V8 car a novelty as you just plain couldn't buy it. Thats just not the case today, a 1SS and 1LT are identical aside from the obvious shape of the nose (which probably weighs the same) and the wheels, suspension, engine and brakes, all of which would be added to a "1LE" package to make it a performance car.

* almost forgot we've established from fbodfather the engine cradle on a V6 frame vs a V8 frame has different mounting points, so you couldn't even install a V8 engine in there anyway. As I said they are identical cars so this makes no sense anyway.
So if that is true, why couldn't a small V-8 be put in an LS shell?
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Old 12-29-2009, 11:47 AM   #53
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* ps the Z28 DID have stripes, and chrome and shiny rally wheels. What you describe is more of a COPO car that the Z28 never was, it was a homologation special but still had some things to make it a daily car and indicate its racing connection.
Have you seen pictures of Jeff Smith's "original" barn-find-type '67 Z28 recently featured in Car Craft Magazine? NO stripes... In fact, he owned it for many years before realizing exactly what it was (converted to A/T, with hydraulic lifters by a previous female owner)...and Jeff is no dummy when it comes to Chevys...he is, in fact, a John Lingenfelter "protoge' ".

Stripe-delete was a common request "back in the day". Z/28s, SSs..."Have it your way" existed, then...

Rally wheels were part of the Package...15", unlike the 350/396 SS's 14's.

AGAIN, GM MUST do something to properly create sustained V6 Market Demand. The original business case prescribed it (60% V6/40% V8), and its Supplier Commitments predicate it. THAT is why SSs have been more difficult to get since August and, from time to time, will be again, but this tactic does NOTHING to ENCOURAGE V6 Demand... Without it, the Camaro "run" may be shortened...AGAIN...while Mustang prospers...


You are missing the point of 1LE. It was a car a guy could buy, cage, and go showroom stock racing with.

Go and search R7U...it CAME with a cage...

1LEs were far from the "ultimate" F-car...it took us a Wheel2Wheel "trick" suspension set-up to get our "Firehawk Lite", built-from-a-body-in-white, to finish Second Overall at the '98 One Lap of America, tied for THE Best Finish by ANY PonyCar of ANY Manufacturer in the entire history extant of OLOA. THAT car was an outgrowth of the '95 1LE Formula we secured (one of two ever built). We've owned and raced 'em, so we DO have "some idea" of what we speak/preach...

We successfully competed in the GM/Player's Challenge, '86-'88, with 6th Overall in the inaugural season (competing in only 7 of 8 races...) to back up our "been there/done that" status...

Regardless of which Barber College we learned Hair Splitting at, the pending "real" Z28 will address the perceived Demand for a "halo" top-drawer Camaro...but a gap exists for an inexpensive, agile, fun-to-drive Camaro, be it a 1LE or otherwise designated, that is ecologically sensitive, insurance-friendly...and Mustang-dominating... Don't be surprized if THIS version sets sales records...the "right" version at the "right" time...

IMVHO...

Last edited by LOWDOWN; 12-29-2009 at 12:37 PM.
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Old 12-29-2009, 11:48 AM   #54
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So if that is true, why couldn't a small V-8 be put in an LS shell?
See later post, engine cradles are different....
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Old 12-29-2009, 11:54 AM   #55
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Have you seen pictures of Jeff Smith's "original" barn-find-type '67 Z28 recently featured in Car Craft Magazine? NO stripes... In fact, he owned it for many years before realizing exactly what it was (converted to A/T, with hydraulic lifters by a previous female owner)...and Jeff is no dummy when it comes to Chevys...he is, in fact, a John Lingenfelter "protoge' ".

Stripe-delete was a common request "back in the day". Z/28s, SSs..."Have it your way" existed, then...

Rally wheels were part of the Package...15", unlike the 350/396 SS's 14's.

AGAIN, GM MUST do something to properly create sustained V6 Market Demand. The original business case prescribed it (60% V6/40% V8), and its Supplier Commitments predicate it. THAT is why SSs have been more difficult to get since August and, from time to time, will be again, but this tactic does NOTHING to ENCOURAGE V6 Demand... Without it, the Camaro "run" may be shortened...AGAIN...while Mustang prospers...
And what does his car not having stripes have to do with it? If you ordered a Z28 it came with stripes and wheels, you had to option it otherwise...

I agre they need to bring up demand for the V6 eventually but the car is still selling like hotcakes... In a year they will need to spice up the V6 to continue selling it. V6 packages are a great idea, but Using a monkier associated with a factory road race car is NOT the way.

Ford gets away with adding stickers and trim, now you can get a V6 track pack, start there see where it goes.
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Old 12-29-2009, 12:31 PM   #56
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1) And what does his car not having stripes have to do with it? If you ordered a Z28 it came with stripes and wheels, you had to option it otherwise...

2) I agre they need to bring up demand for the V6 eventually but the car is still selling like hotcakes... In a year they will need to spice up the V6 to continue selling it. V6 packages are a great idea, but Using a monkier associated with a factory road race car is NOT the way.

3) Ford gets away with adding stickers and trim, now you can get a V6 track pack, start there see where it goes.
1) Option, as stated...

2) Bastardizing monikers is nothing new with them...

3) Where it goes? Onward...successfully for 47 Model Years...without hiatus...unlike you-know-who...ready to repeat their errors of the past...

The V6 IS the key Platform for continued Camaro success...PERIOD!
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