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Old 11-14-2008, 05:07 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by AIA_GTO View Post
First no blue SS now this! Looks like my dreams for a blue w/ black striped SS convertible are years away again! Just going to have to settle for the coupe now. Although, that's not a bad thing to settle with, am i right!
Breath easy friend (well, easier anyway), the blue SS is coming, just a lil later: http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9304
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Old 11-14-2008, 05:18 PM   #27
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I've been hearing that GM could file bankruptcy as soon as December, which is tragically thrre months too early, even for Camaro coupe... My fingers are crossed though, let's hope GM can pull through
Maybe I should go get me a Corvette. I pray GM doesn't go under but can you imagine how collectible a Corvette from GM's Last year would be. IN some countries, GM and USA are interchangeable.
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Old 11-14-2008, 08:45 PM   #28
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Yeah. don't wait for the convertible, go out and buy an SS
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Old 11-14-2008, 08:59 PM   #29
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I know they say the Camaro Coupe will not be scrapped. I know they say production will start in February. Is there anything that can happen to change these two facts? Is it at all possible to start production early to help start cash flowing into the company?
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Old 11-14-2008, 09:51 PM   #30
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The way everyone is talking GM may be forced into bankruptcy. The tide to save the American car companies seems to be faltering.
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Old 11-14-2008, 10:49 PM   #31
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oh come on....i blame the uaw and the union thugs ...I also blame c.a.f.e and all those government regulations for increasing the cost of making a vehicle and for having to crimp on quality to meet certain regulations

damn the unions i don't care who i offend its ridiculous that gm's labor costs are 60% more than toyota's and put some tariff's on the japanese cars...they have protectionist tariffs over there

how the heck does gm pay more for retired workers than their current workers...and gm shouldn't be a healthcare provider

screw the uaw seriously screw them
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Old 11-14-2008, 11:14 PM   #32
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Old 11-14-2008, 11:23 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chevydude26 View Post
oh come on....i blame the uaw and the union thugs ...I also blame c.a.f.e and all those government regulations for increasing the cost of making a vehicle and for having to crimp on quality to meet certain regulations

damn the unions i don't care who i offend its ridiculous that gm's labor costs are 60% more than toyota's and put some tariff's on the japanese cars...they have protectionist tariffs over there

how the heck does gm pay more for retired workers than their current workers...and gm shouldn't be a healthcare provider

screw the uaw seriously screw them
Well, there's more to it then that, but you are on the right track.
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Old 11-14-2008, 11:44 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by chevydude26 View Post
oh come on....i blame the uaw and the union thugs ...I also blame c.a.f.e and all those government regulations for increasing the cost of making a vehicle and for having to crimp on quality to meet certain regulations

damn the unions i don't care who i offend its ridiculous that gm's labor costs are 60% more than toyota's and put some tariff's on the japanese cars...they have protectionist tariffs over there

how the heck does gm pay more for retired workers than their current workers...and gm shouldn't be a healthcare provider

screw the uaw seriously screw them

mmmmmm......not quite that simple.

There is much blame to go around:

>no level playing field with the european union and Japan and Korea --

>additional government regulations...(WHY is it that we keep legislating more and more safety features - yet there is NO National Driver Education program in this country - there are a few states where you can actually get a driver's license by taking a written test -- and you don't actually have to get behind the wheel!)

>several emission standards rather than one National one

>Apathy by the American Public

>Glacial pace of change in the past

>Unwillingness of SOME locals to change.


............there are many more, but I'm afraid I'll bring down the server if I keep listing them.......


I know the Unions are upset with those of us in Salaried Positions - but what I don't think they realize is that we are expected to work anytime needed -- with nothing like overtime -- we are 'exempt' -- we make the same money if we work 40 hours a week (I don't remember ever working 'only' 40 hours a week...) or 90 hours a week.......most of us are not 'bonus' level -- and those that are have no bonuses anymore.....we pay for the privilege of a company car.....we have sizable co-pays on our insurance (I pay over $200 a month for my heart medications) .....further, as we downsize, we take on the responsibilities of other people -- (i.e. at one time there was an an Exhibit Manager and an assistant Exhibit Manager for every Division - and Chevy had two -- one for cars, one for trucks........I'm now doing Chevy/Cad/Hummer/Saab -- and no assistants......and you know, if that's what I need to do to keep us competitive, so be it.....)

I, for one, believe (and this is my opinion...) that we SHOULD pay good wages to our laborers - because, you see, the money they make goes back into the economy.


Someone on another site said: " F*** 'em! make 'em give back 30% of their wages..........

OK.

Now - think about that.

Let's take Lordstown/Warren/Youngstown Ohio - what do you suppose would happen if we take that percentage away from our workers?

Massive foreclosures.
Local economy takes a hit
Vacation industry gets slapped
etc
etc
etc

................see, it isn't quite that easy.

What IS problematic is that the big three have, as I recall, north of 2 million retirees -- whereas Toyota has less than 600 --

OK.......now THAT'S competitive..........

There is no easy answer.

In closing...think about this:

>We won world war II by outproducing the enemy.

>The Wall Street Journal and other business periodicals credit GM with saving the economy after 9/11 --

........and yet so many Americans hate the big three.............and this, my friends, is Shameful.
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Old 11-15-2008, 12:00 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by fbodfather View Post
mmmmmm......not quite that simple.

There is much blame to go around:

>no level playing field with the european union and Japan and Korea --

>additional government regulations...(WHY is it that we keep legislating more and more safety features - yet there is NO National Driver Education program in this country - there are a few states where you can actually get a driver's license by taking a written test -- and you don't actually have to get behind the wheel!)

>several emission standards rather than one National one

>Apathy by the American Public

>Glacial pace of change in the past

>Unwillingness of SOME locals to change.


............there are many more, but I'm afraid I'll bring down the server if I keep listing them.......


I know the Unions are upset with those of us in Salaried Positions - but what I don't think they realize is that we are expected to work anytime needed -- with nothing like overtime -- we are 'exempt' -- we make the same money if we work 40 hours a week (I don't remember ever working 'only' 40 hours a week...) or 90 hours a week.......most of us are not 'bonus' level -- and those that are have no bonuses anymore.....we pay for the privilege of a company car.....we have sizable co-pays on our insurance (I pay over $200 a month for my heart medications) .....further, as we downsize, we take on the responsibilities of other people -- (i.e. at one time there was an an Exhibit Manager and an assistant Exhibit Manager for every Division - and Chevy had two -- one for cars, one for trucks........I'm now doing Chevy/Cad/Hummer/Saab -- and no assistants......and you know, if that's what I need to do to keep us competitive, so be it.....)

I, for one, believe (and this is my opinion...) that we SHOULD pay good wages to our laborers - because, you see, the money they make goes back into the economy.


Someone on another site said: " F*** 'em! make 'em give back 30% of their wages..........

OK.

Now - think about that.

Let's take Lordstown/Warren/Youngstown Ohio - what do you suppose would happen if we take that percentage away from our workers?

Massive foreclosures.
Local economy takes a hit
Vacation industry gets slapped
etc
etc
etc

................see, it isn't quite that easy.

What IS problematic is that the big three have, as I recall, north of 2 million retirees -- whereas Toyota has less than 600 --

OK.......now THAT'S competitive..........

There is no easy answer.

In closing...think about this:

>We won world war II by outproducing the enemy.

>The Wall Street Journal and other business periodicals credit GM with saving the economy after 9/11 --

........and yet so many Americans hate the big three.............and this, my friends, is Shameful.
Well said. However just because you don't support the bailout doesn't mean you hate the big three. It just means you have a different ideology or think you have a better way to fix the situation. The government is going to help the retiree's and health benefits of GM while a bailout will probably happen if GM is still in trouble once Obama comes into office. However what price or what freedoms will we be giving up as American's because of the conditions that such a large bailout would require that is written by Democrats. More standards that make it even harder for larger more powerful engines to meet without penalties that the buyer has to incur in the form of taxes. How long will the bailout last before another is needed? The answer lies somewhere in between where both parties would like to take this situation. One thing is for certain, a lot of prayer and hard work is what is going to keep GM alive and running after the Government helps pay for benefits and salaries that no longer can be met at the current production level. And I will keep praying and as a loyal GM customer with 2 GM vehicles and one on the order I will continue to do my part..
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Old 11-15-2008, 12:05 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fbodfather View Post
mmmmmm......not quite that simple.

There is much blame to go around:

>no level playing field with the european union and Japan and Korea --

>additional government regulations...(WHY is it that we keep legislating more and more safety features - yet there is NO National Driver Education program in this country - there are a few states where you can actually get a driver's license by taking a written test -- and you don't actually have to get behind the wheel!)

>several emission standards rather than one National one

>Apathy by the American Public

>Glacial pace of change in the past

>Unwillingness of SOME locals to change.


............there are many more, but I'm afraid I'll bring down the server if I keep listing them.......


I know the Unions are upset with those of us in Salaried Positions - but what I don't think they realize is that we are expected to work anytime needed -- with nothing like overtime -- we are 'exempt' -- we make the same money if we work 40 hours a week (I don't remember ever working 'only' 40 hours a week...) or 90 hours a week.......most of us are not 'bonus' level -- and those that are have no bonuses anymore.....we pay for the privilege of a company car.....we have sizable co-pays on our insurance (I pay over $200 a month for my heart medications) .....further, as we downsize, we take on the responsibilities of other people -- (i.e. at one time there was an an Exhibit Manager and an assistant Exhibit Manager for every Division - and Chevy had two -- one for cars, one for trucks........I'm now doing Chevy/Cad/Hummer/Saab -- and no assistants......and you know, if that's what I need to do to keep us competitive, so be it.....)

I, for one, believe (and this is my opinion...) that we SHOULD pay good wages to our laborers - because, you see, the money they make goes back into the economy.


Someone on another site said: " F*** 'em! make 'em give back 30% of their wages..........

OK.

Now - think about that.

Let's take Lordstown/Warren/Youngstown Ohio - what do you suppose would happen if we take that percentage away from our workers?

Massive foreclosures.
Local economy takes a hit
Vacation industry gets slapped
etc
etc
etc

................see, it isn't quite that easy.

What IS problematic is that the big three have, as I recall, north of 2 million retirees -- whereas Toyota has less than 600 --

OK.......now THAT'S competitive..........

There is no easy answer.

In closing...think about this:

>We won world war II by outproducing the enemy.

>The Wall Street Journal and other business periodicals credit GM with saving the economy after 9/11 --

........and yet so many Americans hate the big three.............and this, my friends, is Shameful.
I'm sorry if i seemed a bit rude i'm not mad at you guys i'm mad that people are blaming gm when the government had a huge hand in screwing you guys with stuff like the c.a.f.e standards

my only issue with unions is that they kind of force you to pay above market value...where as a company like toyota pays 50-60% less in their overall costs...its almost unfair competition from the start...now the 2 million retirees to 600 is astounding wow I had no idea, I understand why unions exist and workers have a right to unite but its no coincidence that industries that are heavily unionized end up being the ones that are doing bad now

and japan has national health insurance(which i don't ideologically agree with) but that also gives japanese automakers a huge advantage ...I'd prefer that we all have an individual based system with tax credits and you get to chose your plan but either one will help gm save costs

I heard that about 1000 dollars gets added in the price of every gm car because of the massive amount of healthcare that gm provides...

but f-bod my prayers are with you guys and i'm rooting for you guys...

what do you think will bode gm better the bailout or filing chapter 11 where you can possibly re-negotiate some of those union contracts?

the only problem if you accept the government money they are going to force you guys to accommodate to even stricter standards which will just put you guys in the same position in 2 years

I have faith in gm...if putting the camaro convertible on hold will help you guys I think us camaro faithful can make that sacrifice and either wait or just get an ss

I appreciate your input as you are way more knowledgeable than me and if i'm wrong in any one of my comments feel free to correct me
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Old 11-15-2008, 12:06 AM   #37
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Very sad to hear this about the vert...

I know it will have its day...it'll just take time.

Now...I don't think I'll ever buy a foreign car again. Obviously, there is just too much at stake. It seems we keep pouring our money OUT of the country rather than trying to keep it IN....and in sooooo many more ways than by just buying an american made vehicle.

I WANT to help GM. I WANT to see GM succeed. Shoot...I want the BIG THREE to succeed. I'm going to do my part by buying the 2SS/RS in less than half a year. Just keep my baby coming GM and I'll gladly take her home.

Meanwhile....I'll keep spreading the word. I now have 2 Sergeants and another patrol officer interested....along w/ the others and the list is growing.

Spread the word, folks. If you know anyone looking to buy a car, HELP THEM HELP US. We need to be self sufficient!!! This is only ONE part of being self sufficient. Help your friend buy a new car from one of the big 3...and preferably from GM!!!
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Old 11-15-2008, 06:20 AM   #38
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Very sad to hear this about the vert...

I know it will have its day...it'll just take time.

Now...I don't think I'll ever buy a foreign car again. Obviously, there is just too much at stake. It seems we keep pouring our money OUT of the country rather than trying to keep it IN....and in sooooo many more ways than by just buying an american made vehicle.

I WANT to help GM. I WANT to see GM succeed. Shoot...I want the BIG THREE to succeed. I'm going to do my part by buying the 2SS/RS in less than half a year. Just keep my baby coming GM and I'll gladly take her home.

Meanwhile....I'll keep spreading the word. I now have 2 Sergeants and another patrol officer interested....along w/ the others and the list is growing.

Spread the word, folks. If you know anyone looking to buy a car, HELP THEM HELP US. We need to be self sufficient!!! This is only ONE part of being self sufficient. Help your friend buy a new car from one of the big 3...and preferably from GM!!!
And everyone here in Oshawa who is assigned to the Camaro project THANKS all of you here at Camaro5 who have ordered their new Camaro. You guys/girls are the greatest.
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Old 11-15-2008, 08:29 AM   #39
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super60,

By the words of your last post, I am assuming that you are on the Camaro team in Oshawa.

No pressure but -- it is the bottom of the 9th, GM is down by 3 points, and the bases are loaded. We NEED you guys at Oshawa to knock this one out of the park !!!!!!!!
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Old 11-15-2008, 08:41 AM   #40
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Very sad to hear this about the vert...

I know it will have its day...it'll just take time.

Now...I don't think I'll ever buy a foreign car again. Obviously, there is just too much at stake. It seems we keep pouring our money OUT of the country rather than trying to keep it IN....and in sooooo many more ways than by just buying an american made vehicle.

I WANT to help GM. I WANT to see GM succeed. Shoot...I want the BIG THREE to succeed. I'm going to do my part by buying the 2SS/RS in less than half a year. Just keep my baby coming GM and I'll gladly take her home.

Meanwhile....I'll keep spreading the word. I now have 2 Sergeants and another patrol officer interested....along w/ the others and the list is growing.

Spread the word, folks. If you know anyone looking to buy a car, HELP THEM HELP US. We need to be self sufficient!!! This is only ONE part of being self sufficient. Help your friend buy a new car from one of the big 3...and preferably from GM!!!

+100

I have a bunch of guys at work feeling somewhat like they have betrayed their country now because I have been ridiculing on them for buying foreign. One guy (drives a BMW) is a Mopar man at heart. I asked him if he had seen the new Challenger yet and he said no. I took him to a Dodge dealership one day last week and now he has the fever for a Chally -- REAL BAD.

Everyone needs to start conversations about this and make sure that people understand that the big 3 are not like they were in the 80's. Have some researched facts ready in case it turns into a debate. You will find that most of those that have left the U.S. auto industry still have a favorite out of the big 3. Try to persuade them into taking a look at their favorite. If they don't have a favorite, try to persuade them into looking at a new GM.

On the other side of the coin, I sure hope the big 3 are actively working on mainstreaming the companies. It would be interesting to see what kind of bonuses the execs rape out of the companies this year and next.
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Old 11-15-2008, 09:10 AM   #41
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gaaah

i dont think i can wait for the vert anymore im might be changin my order to a coupe. oh well i guess it could be worse.
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Old 11-15-2008, 10:19 AM   #42
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You know, with American car companies being somewhat of a backbone for the economy, you would think Bush we be more eager to give them a share of this 700 billion dollars.

Although we all knew how bad GM was doing, it still saddens me a bit to actually read about it like this. If GM, Ford, or Chrysler go under, I don't think the other 2 would be far behind. That would not be helping our problems, to say the least...I just hope the Camaro can bring enough sales (along with the Volt when it comes out) to bring them a little money.
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Old 11-15-2008, 10:30 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by TAG UR IT View Post
Very sad to hear this about the vert...

I know it will have its day...it'll just take time.

Now...I don't think I'll ever buy a foreign car again. Obviously, there is just too much at stake. It seems we keep pouring our money OUT of the country rather than trying to keep it IN....and in sooooo many more ways than by just buying an american made vehicle.

I WANT to help GM. I WANT to see GM succeed. Shoot...I want the BIG THREE to succeed. I'm going to do my part by buying the 2SS/RS in less than half a year. Just keep my baby coming GM and I'll gladly take her home.

Meanwhile....I'll keep spreading the word. I now have 2 Sergeants and another patrol officer interested....along w/ the others and the list is growing.

Spread the word, folks. If you know anyone looking to buy a car, HELP THEM HELP US. We need to be self sufficient!!! This is only ONE part of being self sufficient. Help your friend buy a new car from one of the big 3...and preferably from GM!!!
Exaclty. I have already convinced 3 classmates that the new camaro is the car to have. Also working on some teachers. Id been talking about the SS i am going to get for a while. but when i told them they could have their camaro for 23K, their eyes bulged.
Both of the cars ive driven are foreign. There wont be another.
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Old 11-15-2008, 12:25 PM   #44
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Well said. However just because you don't support the bailout doesn't mean you hate the big three. It just means you have a different ideology or think you have a better way to fix the situation. The government is going to help the retiree's and health benefits of GM while a bailout will probably happen if GM is still in trouble once Obama comes into office. However what price or what freedoms will we be giving up as American's because of the conditions that such a large bailout would require that is written by Democrats. More standards that make it even harder for larger more powerful engines to meet without penalties that the buyer has to incur in the form of taxes. How long will the bailout last before another is needed? The answer lies somewhere in between where both parties would like to take this situation. One thing is for certain, a lot of prayer and hard work is what is going to keep GM alive and running after the Government helps pay for benefits and salaries that no longer can be met at the current production level. And I will keep praying and as a loyal GM customer with 2 GM vehicles and one on the order I will continue to do my part..

VERY good point......you are correct in that if a person doesn't agree with the government loan -- it does not necessarily mean they hate GM or Ford or Chrysler.

I should have been clearer.........my point - and you are correct -- I wasn't real clear - is that there ARE those that are spouting vile things about the big three -- no company is perfect and there IS lots of blame to go around.

The PROBLEM is that too many people see themselves as "experts" -- and they spout off with 'facts' that are, indeed, incorrect or completely taken out of context.

There are an incredible amount of people saying along the lines of "...GM hasn't changed, they won't change -- and it's only a matter of time."

People -- I am here in the flesh to tell you that GM HAS CHANGED.......there IS a plan to get thru this -- the amount of change in the past 4 years is staggering.........but understand that change is tough -- it's costly, and it's risky (among other things...) and I hate to say this one more time - but the playing field is not level.
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Old 11-15-2008, 12:58 PM   #45
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VERY good point......you are correct in that if a person doesn't agree with the government loan -- it does not necessarily mean they hate GM or Ford or Chrysler.

I should have been clearer.........my point - and you are correct -- I wasn't real clear - is that there ARE those that are spouting vile things about the big three -- no company is perfect and there IS lots of blame to go around.

The PROBLEM is that too many people see themselves as "experts" -- and they spout off with 'facts' that are, indeed, incorrect or completely taken out of context.

There are an incredible amount of people saying along the lines of "...GM hasn't changed, they won't change -- and it's only a matter of time."

People -- I am here in the flesh to tell you that GM HAS CHANGED.......there IS a plan to get thru this -- the amount of change in the past 4 years is staggering.........but understand that change is tough -- it's costly, and it's risky (among other things...) and I hate to say this one more time - but the playing field is not level.
Scott once again reassuring us that everything will be alright. What would we do without you
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Old 11-15-2008, 02:19 PM   #46
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There are an incredible amount of people saying along the lines of "...GM hasn't changed, they won't change -- and it's only a matter of time."

People -- I am here in the flesh to tell you that GM HAS CHANGED.......there IS a plan to get thru this -- the amount of change in the past 4 years is staggering.........but understand that change is tough -- it's costly, and it's risky (among other things...) and I hate to say this one more time - but the playing field is not level.
Scott, those of us who follow things closely know that GM has changed, but unfortunately the vast majority of people who have sworn GM off don't.

That's why I really belive, and really hope, your PR department comes up with a serious campaign to go directly at those who have such ire for GM.

I don't know if you read my post from another thread, but basically GM should have some real advertising going after people who still think GM is garbage. I think GM needs a massive add campaign. Not showing a Cobalt zipping around advertising a $199.00/month lease, but a serious, direct, and point blank campaign.

Something like this: No music, no flashy graphics, just Bob Lutz walking toward the camera with a red 1959 Eldorado and a red 2009 CTS-V on both sides of him. Have him point out that in the time those two cars had been produced, GM had lost their way in design and quality, but have gotten it back in a big way. I think you would open alot of people's ears who currently drive Toyotas if he said "over the past 30 years, GM has made product choices which have hurt you, our customer, and our beloved country. If you owned a GM product 10+ years ago, we sincerely appologize if it might not have given you the satisfaction you expected. We've also talked better quality in the past but didn't quite deliver. Well, those days are over at GM. That is the past, and while we understand your frustration with our past products, you are depriving yourself from a fantastic, rewarding driving and ownership experience by not visiting a GM dealership. Today, our engineering and design is second to none, with attention to details, reliability, and overall product quality surpasing what is offered from our competitors, foreign or domestic. We have the most sophisticated and highest quality assembly lines in the industry, and our engineers are the most brilliant we've had since (as he points back to the Eldorado) this classic was produced. We invite you to take a serious look at GM products. See what you've been missing."

As the picture fades, bring up the blue square and underneat it all GM division symbols. A voiceover (I hear James Earl Jones in my head) says "General Motors. Now, more than ever, America's mark of excellence"

Poinient, humble, and direct.

Get Lutz to get personal with America. Lee Iacocca did in the 80's with Chrysler and his personal appeals in comercials and it helped get them out of the red. He became a household name and Chryslers started flying out of dealers.

I'm not a commercial writer, but I think something along those lines would go a long way in getting Toyota owners back into GM dealerships
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Old 11-15-2008, 09:25 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by fastball View Post
Scott, those of us who follow things closely know that GM has changed, but unfortunately the vast majority of people who have sworn GM off don't.

That's why I really belive, and really hope, your PR department comes up with a serious campaign to go directly at those who have such ire for GM.

I don't know if you read my post from another thread, but basically GM should have some real advertising going after people who still think GM is garbage. I think GM needs a massive add campaign. Not showing a Cobalt zipping around advertising a $199.00/month lease, but a serious, direct, and point blank campaign.

Something like this: No music, no flashy graphics, just Bob Lutz walking toward the camera with a red 1959 Eldorado and a red 2009 CTS-V on both sides of him. Have him point out that in the time those two cars had been produced, GM had lost their way in design and quality, but have gotten it back in a big way. I think you would open alot of people's ears who currently drive Toyotas if he said "over the past 30 years, GM has made product choices which have hurt you, our customer, and our beloved country. If you owned a GM product 10+ years ago, we sincerely appologize if it might not have given you the satisfaction you expected. We've also talked better quality in the past but didn't quite deliver. Well, those days are over at GM. That is the past, and while we understand your frustration with our past products, you are depriving yourself from a fantastic, rewarding driving and ownership experience by not visiting a GM dealership. Today, our engineering and design is second to none, with attention to details, reliability, and overall product quality surpasing what is offered from our competitors, foreign or domestic. We have the most sophisticated and highest quality assembly lines in the industry, and our engineers are the most brilliant we've had since (as he points back to the Eldorado) this classic was produced. We invite you to take a serious look at GM products. See what you've been missing."

As the picture fades, bring up the blue square and underneat it all GM division symbols. A voiceover (I hear James Earl Jones in my head) says "General Motors. Now, more than ever, America's mark of excellence"

Poinient, humble, and direct.

Get Lutz to get personal with America. Lee Iacocca did in the 80's with Chrysler and his personal appeals in comercials and it helped get them out of the red. He became a household name and Chryslers started flying out of dealers.

I'm not a commercial writer, but I think something along those lines would go a long way in getting Toyota owners back into GM dealerships
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Old 11-15-2008, 10:24 PM   #48
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I agree with everyone else...not that simple...but...solving the union problem would put GM on track to being profitable. People think GM is dead already but they still sell more cars than those perfect lil Toyota guys do. Plus people still think of GM as they were in the 90's...if it doesn't have a v-8 then its pretty much junk and ugly interiors.....but if you have been near any of their new products there amazing!

Three Things GM MUST DO:
1) re-work /scrap/weaken union deals to make them competitive with Toyotas non-union workers. I am sorry, GM's union worker do no better than Toyotas union guys.

2) Cut un-profitable dealers that just fight each other. When you can stand on the roof of a chevy dealer and see another one, then there is a few to many of them around.

3) Cut Hummer...or move it into the Chevy dealership kind of the way Scion is in a Toyota dealership. Hummer can be a ninch brand but having their own dealership, not even close.
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Old 11-15-2008, 11:59 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by fbodfather View Post
mmmmmm......not quite that simple.

There is much blame to go around:

>no level playing field with the european union and Japan and Korea --

>additional government regulations...(WHY is it that we keep legislating more and more safety features - yet there is NO National Driver Education program in this country - there are a few states where you can actually get a driver's license by taking a written test -- and you don't actually have to get behind the wheel!)

>several emission standards rather than one National one

>Apathy by the American Public

>Glacial pace of change in the past

>Unwillingness of SOME locals to change.


............there are many more, but I'm afraid I'll bring down the server if I keep listing them.......


I know the Unions are upset with those of us in Salaried Positions - but what I don't think they realize is that we are expected to work anytime needed -- with nothing like overtime -- we are 'exempt' -- we make the same money if we work 40 hours a week (I don't remember ever working 'only' 40 hours a week...) or 90 hours a week.......most of us are not 'bonus' level -- and those that are have no bonuses anymore.....we pay for the privilege of a company car.....we have sizable co-pays on our insurance (I pay over $200 a month for my heart medications) .....further, as we downsize, we take on the responsibilities of other people -- (i.e. at one time there was an an Exhibit Manager and an assistant Exhibit Manager for every Division - and Chevy had two -- one for cars, one for trucks........I'm now doing Chevy/Cad/Hummer/Saab -- and no assistants......and you know, if that's what I need to do to keep us competitive, so be it.....)

I, for one, believe (and this is my opinion...) that we SHOULD pay good wages to our laborers - because, you see, the money they make goes back into the economy.


Someone on another site said: " F*** 'em! make 'em give back 30% of their wages..........

OK.

Now - think about that.

Let's take Lordstown/Warren/Youngstown Ohio - what do you suppose would happen if we take that percentage away from our workers?

Massive foreclosures.
Local economy takes a hit
Vacation industry gets slapped
etc
etc
etc

................see, it isn't quite that easy.

What IS problematic is that the big three have, as I recall, north of 2 million retirees -- whereas Toyota has less than 600 --

OK.......now THAT'S competitive..........

There is no easy answer.

In closing...think about this:

>We won world war II by outproducing the enemy.

>The Wall Street Journal and other business periodicals credit GM with saving the economy after 9/11 --

........and yet so many Americans hate the big three.............and this, my friends, is Shameful.
I can confirm that what Scott is saying in regards to the Youngstown, Ohio area-having grown up there (Boardman). If Lordstown Assembly were to close the entire area would be devestated! And this is not the only area of the country that has a Big 3 Plant that sustains it--they are scattered across the US (not just MI).

Also, that plant has already replaceed about 1500 UAW workers that are now hired in as "second-tier" and are paid about $14/hour and have a benefit package that is much different from past benefit packages--and they help pay for it! I left the area about five years ago, but have immediate family still there--and none of them are part of the UAW, so that is not why I am defending--I am only informing.

GM has made a lot of positive changes that are leading them to profitability, but they hit a perfect storm in the economy that is really hurting them now.

So, no matter where you live in the US/Ontario and whatever profession you are in you will all be negatively impacted if the Detroit 3 are allowed to fail--the tax base, costs of social programs, etc. will hurt everyone. I can assure you that no one is immune!
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Old 11-16-2008, 02:22 AM   #50
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I agree about buying American, and I have done anything but over the last decade because of past issues and concerns, but this thread is somewhat off topic now.

I WANT to buy a camaro convertible, and I do want the new camaro BADLY, but it doesn't make financial sense to buy the coupe now, and then sell it when the convertible finally hits the streets. I was doing the financially responsible thing and saving and waiting, but since they are telling me this thing is on hold again... well.... so are my dollars.

So does this make sense for a buyer like me? I know the vert is a smaller market car, but I happen to be in one of those markets where vert's are EVERYWHERE... and now, it looks like my return to The Big 3 will have to wait... this news, while understandable, is still no less disappointing and disheartening to those of use who wanted the convertible version of the new camaro.
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