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Old 07-07-2010, 12:00 PM   #51
thesubfloor
 
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Did you do any tuning in the lockup tables?
I've got it set up so that it won't lockup at all under WOT and I also have it turned it off in D mode for anything less than 65MPH at part throttle. I have a really big cam in the car so I find that improves drivability as it tends to chug a bit at low RPMs if the converter is locked.
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Old 07-07-2010, 12:03 PM   #52
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NO SH*T?! Do you work for the State or something, lol? (Sorry - I do, lol). Anyways, I ran a 3800 stall in my '02, but I know I'd definately be interested in seeing your ride Actually - that's stupid; YES - I'd be interested. I'm sure your 3600 and 6L80 is WAY different than my 3800 and 4L60, lol. YES - I'm down
Here's a video of the car:



I sort of work for the state (CalPERS) and only bring the car into work on Wednesdays so just let me know when you want to meet up.
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Old 07-07-2010, 12:09 PM   #53
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I've got it set up so that it won't lockup at all under WOT and I also have it turned it off in D mode for anything less than 65MPH at part throttle. I have a really big cam in the car so I find that improves drivability as it tends to chug a bit at low RPMs if the converter is locked.
That is the standard way to tune this TCC. At MPH below 55ish the verter likes to lock/unlock (seeking desired slip) burning the aftermarket clutches. You can see it doing this in the logs. There is some special code not allowing full pressure. I have mine set to only lock in 5th and 6th at 60mph and above. I'll get it figured out and continue to post on this thread.
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Old 07-07-2010, 12:13 PM   #54
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Here's a video of the car:



I sort of work for the state (CalPERS) and only bring the car into work on Wednesdays so just let me know when you want to meet up.
Thats impressive. I see/here the reason for the big stall...
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Old 07-07-2010, 12:17 PM   #55
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That is the standard way to tune this TCC. At MPH below 55ish the verter likes to lock/unlock (seeking desired slip) burning the aftermarket clutches. You can see it doing this in the logs. There is some special code not allowing full pressure. I have mine set to only lock in 5th and 6th at 60mph and above. I'll get it figured out and continue to post on this thread.
It's called Pulse Width Modulation and currently neither EFI Live or HP Tuners allows for it to be turned off in the 6L80 (although it can be in the 4L60/4L80).

The reason it's put in there is for driving comfort and it can burn up the aftermarket clutches however I just had Yank go through my converter (after recently blowing my transmission) and he said the lockup clutch was holding up just fine after a year.
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Old 07-07-2010, 12:18 PM   #56
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Thats impressive. I see/here the reason for the big stall...
Yep, you can't 60ft like that with a stock converter.
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Old 07-07-2010, 12:27 PM   #57
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Here's a video of the car:



I sort of work for the state (CalPERS) and only bring the car into work on Wednesdays so just let me know when you want to meet up.
Do you work next to the pyramid, in the new building?

Thanks for the video. I'll be having a look at it
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Old 07-07-2010, 01:00 PM   #58
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Do you work next to the pyramid, in the new building?

Thanks for the video. I'll be having a look at it
I'm at 400 P Street.
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Old 07-07-2010, 01:11 PM   #59
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I'm at 400 P Street.
Cool. I'll be sure to hit you up for a Wednesday drive. Thanks
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Old 07-07-2010, 01:12 PM   #60
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Hey wacker, are you saying that it's not a gd idea to do a converter on a stock 6l80? I've also been told, buy a great tuner, that the converter us plug and play and nothing in my tune needs to be touched. My converter should be here any day and now you got me thinking.
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Old 07-07-2010, 01:40 PM   #61
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stall converters are a great mod,, the only issue i see is people trying to lock the tcc at wot,,, yes i know the factory converter locks at wot but the factory engine hp and tq is a lot less than most of us that are modding out our 2010 L99 cars. and until someone makes a custom O/S for the tcm i dont see any way to get back to the basics of an ON/OFF TCC apply.

also as posted already,, the tcc clutch does not even have as much surface area as a manual trans car and it is submerged in fluid,, how much hp could you expext it to hold..
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Old 07-07-2010, 04:20 PM   #62
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Hey wacker, are you saying that it's not a gd idea to do a converter on a stock 6L80E? I've also been told, buy a great tuner, that the converter us plug and play and nothing in my tune needs to be touched. My converter should be here any day and now you got me thinking.
A high stall aftermarket converter is by no means a "plug and play" mod on this car. Ask anyone who has one. It will need tuned for drivability. A custom OS that has full control over the TCM is the only way we are going to be able to run aftermarket converters to their full potential. That is of course if you plan on locking at anything other than cruise power/speed. Full control, or at least full control of lockup is a top priority for Vince and I.
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Old 07-07-2010, 04:56 PM   #63
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stall converters are a great mod,, the only issue i see is people trying to lock the tcc at wot,,, yes i know the factory converter locks at wot but the factory engine hp and tq is a lot less than most of us that are modding out our 2010 L99 cars. and until someone makes a custom O/S for the TCM i don't see any way to get back to the basics of an ON/OFF TCC apply.

also as posted already,, the TCC clutch does not even have as much surface area as a manual trans car and it is submerged in fluid,, how much hp could you expert it to hold..
Agreed the high horsepower cars will/are having trouble holding WOT lockup even with a converter designed for 1000HP. The problem is the regulated apply pressure and the 109.9 cap coded into the OS. This can and will be changed.

It seems PWM is actually deactivated in this OS/TCM. GM uses another type of pressure regulating theory based off multiple tables. My guess is there is a table with an axis like (Estimated Engine Torque V's TCC Apply Pressure). You can watch logs where the pressure scales in as the engine torque increases. Could be TPS based too, but that's the stuff we are looking into. The cap of 109.9 is an easy re-write, the trick is finding which tables will allow for full and instantaneous lockup. You can achieve this with the VCM scanner as you know, but your only getting 109.9 psi. Not enough for seriously modified engines.
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Old 07-07-2010, 04:59 PM   #64
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There is some special code not allowing full pressure. I have mine set to only lock in 5th and 6th at 60mph and above. I'll get it figured out and continue to post on this thread.

this is the way i have mine set also and it is working fine for 7000 miles now,, i may change it if one of the tuner companies comes out with the correct tables needed to raise the tcc pressure and enable the standard on/off tcc apply

keep us posted!
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Old 07-07-2010, 05:02 PM   #65
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this is the way i have mine set also and it is working fine for 7000 miles now,, i may change it if one of the tuner companies comes out with the correct tables needed to raise the tcc pressure and enable the standard on/off tcc apply

keep us posted!
You bet...Can't imagine a tuner telling someone a stalled converter in this thing is plug and play.
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Old 07-07-2010, 05:03 PM   #66
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A high stall aftermarket converter is by no means a "plug and play" mod on this car. Ask anyone who has one. It will need tuned for drivability. A custom OS that has full control over the TCM is the only way we are going to be able to run aftermarket converters to their full potential. That is of course if you plan on locking at anything other than cruise power/speed. Full control, or at least full control of lockup is a top priority for Vince and I.
With all due respect to you and your background I beg to differ because yeah, it kinda is pretty much a plug and play mod.

I've had 5 different variations of Yank converters in my car (that varied by design and stall speed) and a reworked XLR (before the Yank was commercially available) and also installed converters in several friend's Corvettes.

If the car isn't making a ton of power or isn't going to be drag raced then absolutely no tuning changes whatsoever are needed and even if there are, it takes all of 5 minutes to do by lowering the shift points a bit and changing a value under Engine->Fuel Control->Fuel Cutoff->Acceleration Based->Accel Thresh table to keep it from acting as a secondary rev-limiter when the car accelerates too quickly.
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Old 07-07-2010, 05:31 PM   #67
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[QUOTE=thesubfloor;2068961]With all due respect to you and your background I beg to differ because yeah, it kinda is pretty much a plug and play mod.

I've had 5 different variations of Yank converters in my car (that varied by design and stall speed) and a reworked XLR (before the Yank was commercially available) and also installed converters in several friend's Corvettes.

If the car isn't making a ton of power or isn't going to be drag raced then absolutely no tuning changes whatsoever are needed and even if there are, it takes all of 5 minutes to do by lowering the shift points a bit and changing a value under Engine->Fuel Control->Fuel Cutoff->Acceleration Based->Accel Thresh table to keep it from acting as a secondary rev-limiter when the car accelerates too quickly.[/QUOTE



Aftermarket converters typically use a different type of clutch material, one that is not designed to slip like the stocker. The 2010 Camaro and 6L80E combination command typically 100 RPM slip at light throttle. An aftermarket TCC made of material designed for WOT lockup will fry as the computer locks and unlocks the verter seeking the preset desired slip. Maybe the yank uses a clutch similar to stock and that's why they say don't lock it at WOT Perhaps the yank does allow for some slip. Or maybe the Vette uses different tables for lockup. I know the HD trucks use the same stock verter and one would have to assume they demand full lockup all the time for towing. Otherwise the converter would'nt last a month.
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Old 07-07-2010, 05:35 PM   #68
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Pretty sure Camaro1 had to tune his. I had to tune mine and I'm pretty close to stock power. Most problems arrise during light throttle. WOT is simply a pressure issue. I even show zero slip at WOT from the middle of third on with the stock verter. The TCC in the Camaro actually applies in second during WOT, however you will see around 100 RPM slip till somewhere in third.
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Old 07-07-2010, 06:20 PM   #69
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The Circle D Multi disk converter I run has roughly three times the surface area of the stock verter. This is why it's able to hold WOT lockup. To my knowledge Yank only runs a single disk converter with considerably less surface area than the Circle D. I do believe however they are making or maybe even selling a multi disk now but don't quote me. I'll have some real holding capacity numbers tomorrow or the next for you engineer types.
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Old 07-07-2010, 07:44 PM   #70
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The last time I put a converter (just a 2800) in one of my cars without getting it tuned, I had all kinds of tranny issues. I was burning out clutches big time as soon as I increased my HP levels a little bit.
I've been discussing this with my tuner (Jeremy Formato). He definately suggests getting my car tuned for the converter, if I get a converter (which I hope to get this winter).
He also really likes the Yank converters. He's tuned hundreds (probably thousands) of cars and he really likes the Yank converters (combo of street drivability and track use).
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Old 07-07-2010, 08:51 PM   #71
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I have the newest version,(I think the 4th or 5th version) comming from Pro Torque that they specd for my car. Ted will be installing so I know he will do whatever is needed and not release the car until he is satisfied.
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Old 07-07-2010, 09:28 PM   #72
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I have the newest version,(I think the 4th or 5th version) coming from Pro Torque that they specd for my car. Ted will be installing so I know he will do whatever is needed and not release the car until he is satisfied.
Don't know him personally but he seems like a good dude.
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Old 07-07-2010, 10:07 PM   #73
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I know the HD trucks use the same stock verter and one would have to assume they demand full lockup all the time for towing. Otherwise the converter would'nt last a month.


this is right from the gm service manual,, i think finding the o/s that uses full lock up will be the key to integrating it into out tcm:


A torque converter with an electronically controlled capacity clutch (ECCC). ECCC was developed to reduce the possibility of noise, vibration, or chuggle caused by TCC apply. In RWD 6-Speed transmissions, this slippage can range from 0-50 RPM. Full lockup (0 RPM slip) is still available on some applications. TCC may apply in 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, or 6th gears. The specific TCC apply points and the amount of clutch slippage are determined by a number of operating conditions, including throttle position, vehicle speed, gear, as well as specific vehicle application. Transmission fluid temperature will also affect TCC apply points.
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Old 07-08-2010, 10:48 PM   #74
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Also...When AFM activates it puts the TCC into a state of commanded slip. Most logs show around 50 RPM slip while still applying pressure. GM did this to aid in the smooth transition from 4 to 8 cylinders. What this means for us aftermarket converter guys is a very short converter life unless AFM is deactivated. Most if not all tuners will do this, even most handhelds will as well. You can deactivate AFM without a tune with this step by step procedure.

1. Select M on the shift selector.
2. Tap up to display 6th
3. Tap down to display 5th
4. Tap back up to 6th

At this point AFM will be deactivated and won't reactivate until the shift lever is moved back to the D position.
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Old 07-08-2010, 11:01 PM   #75
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Wacker, Ted is Ted Jannetty. He is the builder and tuner of my car. He said it was plug and play, those were his word exactly. He is working with Joe jr from protorque on developing a better version gen 5 converter. I trust Ted 200 percent. I'll mention this thread and see what he thinks,
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