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Old 07-27-2010, 03:36 PM   #295
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Originally Posted by PoorMansCamaro View Post
Not sure if you can compare the two, but my buddy in his acura rsx-s with a compression ratio of 11:1 runs his turbo at around 13-15psi.
and he has stock internals? and stock fuel management and stock injectors?
If he's not and he's running that much boost, he wont be doing it for very long.

His car also has aluminium forged pistons that were designed to handle high static compression which translates into being able to deal with boost better (to a degree)

And conversely, we dont know how much boost this LLT can handle because no one has really pushed the limits up to this point (or at least there arent any in this discussion). The motor may somehow surprise everyone and hold 13 psi as well, I seriously doubt it, but you never know.

We just dont want Z blowing his motor, so everyone is trying to be conservative given the facts about this motor on paper.
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Old 07-27-2010, 03:40 PM   #296
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Originally Posted by PoorMansCamaro View Post
Not sure if you can compare the two, but my buddy in his acura rsx-s with a compression ratio of 11:1 runs his turbo at around 13-15psi.
Im sure this guy doesnt have direct injection, and has probably upgraded his injectors, fuel rail, pump and pressure regulator. its a completely different with our V6's. We wont be able to boost to those levels unless we start to see some aftermarket fuel management.
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Old 07-27-2010, 03:51 PM   #297
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Originally Posted by SDCamaro10 View Post
Im sure this guy doesnt have direct injection, and has probably upgraded his injectors, fuel rail, pump and pressure regulator. its a completely different with our V6's. We wont be able to boost to those levels unless we start to see some aftermarket fuel management.
Not sure if it matters or what not since I know nothing about boost but it appears that the fuel pressure is about 90 on the LLT.
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Old 07-27-2010, 04:06 PM   #298
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Originally Posted by ROD1 View Post
Not sure if it matters or what not since I know nothing about boost but it appears that the fuel pressure is about 90 on the LLT.
thats fine for lower boost levels, like 5-8 lbs of boost, but with more boost, you need for fuel.. the more boost you try to run without upgrading will cause you to start running way to lean and thats not a good thing.

I've talked to several manufacturers already, most recently i talked to the guys at Vortec at one of our local meets. they all agreed that the main set back in developing any FI kits for us, is the fact that its direct injected and theres no current aftermarket support for our fuel system.

Im sure that if we can get some companies to start developing some decent fuel system components, we can get these kits boosting at some real nice levels and put down some serious power. I for one would like to see the V6 raise the front end off the ground.
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Old 07-27-2010, 06:16 PM   #299
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Originally Posted by SDCamaro10 View Post
thats fine for lower boost levels, like 5-8 lbs of boost, but with more boost, you need for fuel.. the more boost you try to run without upgrading will cause you to start running way to lean and thats not a good thing.

I've talked to several manufacturers already, most recently i talked to the guys at Vortec at one of our local meets. they all agreed that the main set back in developing any FI kits for us, is the fact that its direct injected and theres no current aftermarket support for our fuel system.

Im sure that if we can get some companies to start developing some decent fuel system components, we can get these kits boosting at some real nice levels and put down some serious power. I for one would like to see the V6 raise the front end off the ground.
I don't think its just the fuel management. I plan to boost at 8 psi with the meth kit and expect to be slightly over 400 rwhp. I would think boosting beyond that, or adding horsepower beyond that, would require internal work and upgraded drive train. I just don't buy the Vortec argument of we won't build it until we can get fuel management to support the higher boost levels.

What level of rwhp will you be happy with? I was amazed at the other thread where there is heavy debate about getting a V-6 to 300 rwhp.

Now as far as getting the front off the ground, maybe if I can sit my fat _ss in the trunk I might be able to get it done.....
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Old 07-27-2010, 06:37 PM   #300
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Originally Posted by SDCamaro10 View Post
thats fine for lower boost levels, like 5-8 lbs of boost, but with more boost, you need for fuel.. the more boost you try to run without upgrading will cause you to start running way to lean and thats not a good thing.
Isnt 90 substantially higher than most fuel systems? What is the norm?
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Old 07-27-2010, 08:27 PM   #301
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FI V6s have always been cool to me.

Keep it up!
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Old 07-27-2010, 09:57 PM   #302
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LLT's idle at 500psi of fuel pressure, I logged that. I heard numbers in the range of 2500psi at WOT from other members. I haven't logged WOT.

'Normal' fuel pressure these days is from 43psi to 55psi depending on application, and that's consistent idle through WOT. We're in a totally different ballgame here.

I'd worry about the upper ring lands first, because as mentioned, they're thin. On top of that you have the real problem, the rind end-gaps close up as the heat expands them, and once you reach the point of serious heat (boost and detonation), the rings but up against themselves (0 ring gap) and push out on the cylinder walls. This puts a severe stress on them, then SNAP. Time for a rebuild.

As for the strength of the pistons themselves, I wouldn't put much of a HP limit on them as long as detonation and overheating is kept away. Rods go first typically from too much power, but I think these rods will handle quite a bit. That's just a guess on my part, though, but they do seem to be pretty stout. I wouldn't worry about the crank at all.

Water/Meth injection along with the FMIC should quell the temps and detonation quite nicely when dialed in. I think the next limitation is injector size. No one seems to know yet how much they'll give.

As a throwout guess, I would believe 425whp to be a reasonable estimate with meth and 8 or 9 psi.

What we really need to find out is... What is the compression on the non-DI 3.6's, and are the heads the same other than the injector ports? I'd think those pistons would swap right in, and compression any lower is a help for boost on these.
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Old 07-27-2010, 10:25 PM   #303
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Originally Posted by Z Madness View Post

What level of rwhp will you be happy with? I was amazed at the other thread where there is heavy debate about getting a V-6 to 300 rwhp.
That thread is about trying to get that power without forced induction. Somebody did a estimate on possible cost.... and it might come close to what you would pay for a turbo system.
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Old 07-28-2010, 11:15 AM   #304
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ALLTRBO View Post
LLT's idle at 500psi of fuel pressure, I logged that. I heard numbers in the range of 2500psi at WOT from other members. I haven't logged WOT.

'Normal' fuel pressure these days is from 43psi to 55psi depending on application, and that's consistent idle through WOT. We're in a totally different ballgame here.

I'd worry about the upper ring lands first, because as mentioned, they're thin. On top of that you have the real problem, the rind end-gaps close up as the heat expands them, and once you reach the point of serious heat (boost and detonation), the rings but up against themselves (0 ring gap) and push out on the cylinder walls. This puts a severe stress on them, then SNAP. Time for a rebuild.

As for the strength of the pistons themselves, I wouldn't put much of a HP limit on them as long as detonation and overheating is kept away. Rods go first typically from too much power, but I think these rods will handle quite a bit. That's just a guess on my part, though, but they do seem to be pretty stout. I wouldn't worry about the crank at all.

Water/Meth injection along with the FMIC should quell the temps and detonation quite nicely when dialed in. I think the next limitation is injector size. No one seems to know yet how much they'll give.

As a throwout guess, I would believe 425whp to be a reasonable estimate with meth and 8 or 9 psi.

What we really need to find out is... What is the compression on the non-DI 3.6's, and are the heads the same other than the injector ports? I'd think those pistons would swap right in, and compression any lower is a help for boost on these.
Ya think nitrous would be fine to 425whp or is torque more of an issue?
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Old 07-28-2010, 01:58 PM   #305
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Originally Posted by Z Madness View Post
I don't think its just the fuel management. I plan to boost at 8 psi with the meth kit and expect to be slightly over 400 rwhp. I would think boosting beyond that, or adding horsepower beyond that, would require internal work and upgraded drive train. I just don't buy the Vortec argument of we won't build it until we can get fuel management to support the higher boost levels.

What level of rwhp will you be happy with? I was amazed at the other thread where there is heavy debate about getting a V-6 to 300 rwhp.

Now as far as getting the front off the ground, maybe if I can sit my fat _ss in the trunk I might be able to get it done.....
Too much is almost enough. I was just sayin that I think it would be cool to see a V6 pull a wheely down a drag strip
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Old 07-28-2010, 02:13 PM   #306
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Too much is almost enough. I was just sayin that I think it would be cool to see a V6 pull a wheely down a drag strip
Cool. Wheelies are always impressive. Maybe we can get Rod1 to add a 200 shot and see if he can lift the front.:emoticon7: Just kidding Rod1. But I bet he'll be juicing to get into the 11's.
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Old 07-29-2010, 12:14 PM   #307
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Ya think nitrous would be fine to 425whp or is torque more of an issue?
not to take this thread off-topic too much, but ROD, how has your motor been taking to all the extra power with the giggle gas? Did Trifecta tune for when you're spraying? Also, have you not had to worry about any fuel issues while spraying??

Maybe your luck means our motors can adapt to increase airflow with the direct injection...to a degree
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Old 07-30-2010, 09:50 AM   #308
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not to take this thread off-topic too much, but ROD, how has your motor been taking to all the extra power with the giggle gas? Did Trifecta tune for when you're spraying? Also, have you not had to worry about any fuel issues while spraying??

Maybe your luck means our motors can adapt to increase airflow with the direct injection...to a degree
Well this should pretty much give ya some good insight. This is an email response from trifecta after sending him a log from a 100 shot nitrous run.

The car actually looks happier running NOS than not running it. Lol.

From the logs, I’d consider the tune optimized at this point. Fuel and timing look great.

If you need any other changes, just let me know. Thanks!

Good luck at the track today!

- Vince Geglia

Trifecta Performance, Inc.
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