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Old 08-25-2010, 11:35 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by Dr Jkel View Post
OK I understand what you are trying to say about the bushing, basically the inserts stiffen up the rear, Correct? By doing this it allows the rear to be more firmly planted on the ground,better traction etc.....

So the next question is since it has better traction and the power is more placed to the ground then the stress will be moved from the bushings to where? I guess the next weakest link which would be????

Thanks
This is the beauty of the EP1200 solution. Stabilising the IRS sub-frame more evenly distributes loads than the OE bushes. How is that possible? When the sub-frame motion is reduced, when twisting is reduced, all of the IRS component are more evenly loaded. A hard launch screws down the passenger side of the car from the torque exerted through the drive-line. That makes the passenger side rear wheel bite harder and more or less turns the entire IRS sub-frame towards the left of the car. This unevenly loads elements of the IRS. Reducing the twisting motion under hard launch conditions more evenly distributes the loads across the different arms and links in the IRS.

For a daily driver, the Camaro leaves that factory as a GREAT automobile. It needs very few adds to be a GREAT AUTOMOBILE. We start with sub-frame bush inserts, then move to radius bush inserts as the foundation. The front lean and roll doesn't cause any handling issues for the vast majority of Camaro owners. They just want less body lean and roll. That is easy. We add a larger front sway bar. With these three upgrades or modifications the Camaro is complete for the majority of owners as far as daily driver performance.

The next step would be THE LOOK. Many want a lowered look. The look is not a performance issue. The look is a fashion statement. Lowering coils will fill the bill for a fashion statement, but coilovers are the better solution as a performance upgrade.

I'll stop here, because the intent of this thread is how to modify your Camaro to be a better daily driver. If you and others want to continue the discussion I'll be happy to go into more detail.
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Old 08-25-2010, 11:49 AM   #77
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Mine is not a daily driver, but I do not race either. Just looking for a stance and less body roll on winding country roads and entering the interstate is all. I have increased the HP on my car but do not come near using all that I have. Put it this was my car is over a year old and I have 6700 miles, babied miles, mostly interstate.
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Old 08-25-2010, 12:04 PM   #78
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I'm glad to see the bushings have been brought up in this thread. Personally I think they should be the first mod before sways. I had them put on my car along with their Xa coil overs; I'm still on the factory sways. The difference in the handling of the car is nothing short of amazing.

I don't know what your level of driving skill is but for a street only car, I'd definitely recommend the bushings first. Drive it that way a week or two to become familiar with the change in handling, then consider sways. I know you've gone sways first but once you get the bushings done, you're going to be amazed not only at how much better the car handles, but at the improvement in the stability of acceleration and braking. That's the benefits of the bushings.

Since you're doing "spirited" driving, I'd also recommend upgrading your brake fluid to Super Blue or something equivalent and also braided stainless steel brake lines. Too often people only think of power and cornering when they think of performance and neglect upgrading their braking ability.

You can't go wrong with Pedders though and welcome to the Pedders nation!
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Old 08-25-2010, 12:10 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by Dr Jkel View Post
Mine is not a daily driver, but I do not race either. Just looking for a stance and less body roll on winding country roads and entering the interstate is all. I have increased the HP on my car but do not come near using all that I have. Put it this was my car is over a year old and I have 6700 miles, babied miles, mostly interstate.
The Camaro doesn't need a lot for the use you describe. Follow the thread and you may find that all you need and want are radius and sub-frame inserts with a front bar. JP has been candid with his reports. Let's see where this goes.
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Old 08-25-2010, 12:53 PM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc View Post
I'm glad to see the bushings have been brought up in this thread. Personally I think they should be the first mod before sways. I had them put on my car along with their Xa coil overs; I'm still on the factory sways. The difference in the handling of the car is nothing short of amazing.

I don't know what your level of driving skill is but for a street only car, I'd definitely recommend the bushings first. Drive it that way a week or two to become familiar with the change in handling, then consider sways. I know you've gone sways first but once you get the bushings done, you're going to be amazed not only at how much better the car handles, but at the improvement in the stability of acceleration and braking. That's the benefits of the bushings.

Since you're doing "spirited" driving, I'd also recommend upgrading your brake fluid to Super Blue or something equivalent and also braided stainless steel brake lines. Too often people only think of power and cornering when they think of performance and neglect upgrading their braking ability.

You can't go wrong with Pedders though and welcome to the Pedders nation!
Thanks for the infor on the brakes, kinda forgot about that.
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Old 08-25-2010, 09:41 PM   #81
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After speaking with Pete I have decided to go with the sub-fame inserts as he suggested. He feels that this is the best way to go to get the cart to where I want it which is just firming up the rear end and making it feel as planted as the front does now with the front sway bar.

As I have stated before I'm not looking for a racing type set-up with my suspension and he believes that the sub-frame inserts will give me what I'm looking for more so that just adding a rear sway bar.

If I add the rear sway bar it might not really get me the improvements I am looking for. If the sub-frame inserts do not do the trick than the rear sway bar is still an option, but Pete really believe that this won't be the case and I trust his professional opinion, he hasn't been wrong so far so that is all I can ask for.

So Pedders will be sending the sub-frame inserts to TandT and hopefully Tim will be able to install them with the same precesion he did the front sway bar and end links. The sub-frame inserts will be the only mod done at this time. I will wait to do the lowering springs until I have driven the car and given some feedback on what the car feels like with just the sub-frame inserts added.

He is a question for you Pete. I have noticed since adding the front sway bar that while driving on curves on some bumpy roads around 45mph I have noticed that while the front of the car absorbs the bumps and stays perfectly on line the rear end will kind of bump and kick out. Now before the front end would act much the same way as the back but after adding the front sway it was drastically improved.

My quetion is will the sub-frame inserts solve this type of problem?

Thanks again Pete
The EP1200s delivered to T and T today.
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Old 08-25-2010, 09:53 PM   #82
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The EP1200s delivered to T and T today.
OK, I will gove Tim a call tomorrow and set-up a install date and let everyone know what the outcome is and hopefully others will get something out of the information also.

Thanks again Pete.
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Old 08-25-2010, 09:58 PM   #83
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OK, first , love this thread. learning a lot. I just want to make sure this info applies to the V6 as well and whether the parts mentioned are also what I would use?
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Old 08-25-2010, 10:13 PM   #84
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OK, first , love this thread. learning a lot. I just want to make sure this info applies to the V6 as well and whether the parts mentioned are also what I would use?
Yes, but they work better in the better balanced from the factory V6
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Old 08-25-2010, 10:26 PM   #85
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LOL, cool. Now my problem is going to be figuring out a good place to install them. The closest place listed on your site is about 4 hours away. There isn't anywhere in WV you've heard of that does good work by any chance??
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Old 08-26-2010, 10:39 AM   #86
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LOL, cool. Now my problem is going to be figuring out a good place to install them. The closest place listed on your site is about 4 hours away. There isn't anywhere in WV you've heard of that does good work by any chance??
These items are straight forward. Pick a shop, and don't forget about your Chevy Dealer that you have some confidence in. Have them call Pedders for Tech support. It will be a five minute phone call to get them up to speed on these particular parts. For more advanced installations I suggest you take a drive to a Pedders Suspension Specialist.
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Old 08-27-2010, 08:46 AM   #87
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K, I'll have to start checking around. Thanks for the advice.
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Old 08-28-2010, 08:31 PM   #88
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Update after rear Sub-frame inserts:

I had the rear sub-frame inserts installed yesterday by TandT and Tim and crew did a stand-up job at a reasonable price again and had my car ready for me after I played a round of golf....note to all golfers - do not "F" with P.B. Dye course unless you are man enough to take a beating and not quit golf!!!

Back to the car, Pete was correct in that the sub-frame inserts made a huge difference in the cars handling and feel over the rough roads. The rear of the car feels more like the front of the car now, no rear end step out on the nasty bumps on the twisties in Rock creek park on the way to work. Car stayed planted instead of hopping too one side or the other when taking those curves today.

Had a chance to get on it on the highway a bit on the way home from TandT and of course some douche bag on acell phone glids across the lanes right in front of me and I had to break hard and switch lanes real quick and it was quite surprising how good the car felt during hard breaking, and when I switched lanes the car moved like it was on rails! No lean either way and the car just seems so much more responsive now, especially the rear end after the sub fram inserts...it was improved with just the front sway bar but the handling and ride is 10x better after the sub-frame inserts.

To sum it up the Pedders rear sub-frame inserts, front sway bar and end links got my car to where I wanted it to be: improved handling, less roll or lean on highways and on twisties, more responsive and planted during spirited driving on streets and better ride quality on bumpy roads. At this point I don't really feel like the car needs anything else to improve the suspension for my driving desires.

Yeah I could add the rear sway also but what will that add to my car for daily driving needs? Now if Pete decides to send me the rear sway bar and end links for free I wouldn't turn it down but in all honesty I can say that the set-up I have now got me what I wanted and I am 100% satisfied.

Thanks Pete for taking the time and putting forth the efforts to prove the points that you made about your products. Everything you suggested seems right on point so far and I cannot argue with the results of adding the front sway bar only and the rear sub-frame inserts. I will let you know if I notice anything different after driving it for an extended time but at this point I would have to give you and Pedders a big

Thanks JP
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Old 08-28-2010, 10:49 PM   #89
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This thread has been a great read.
Pedders should consider offering the 3 items as a package deal.
Call it "PDDP" - Pedders Daily Driver Package (good thing the middle letters weren't 'O' )
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Old 08-29-2010, 08:48 AM   #90
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Or, how about "Pedders Mean Streak" It will make your Camaro MAD!

You can tell your buddies your car has PMS, and they better not mess with it!



Nuttin but love, Pete... nuttin but love
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Old 08-30-2010, 11:11 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by JProberts View Post
I had the rear sub-frame inserts installed yesterday by TandT and Tim and crew did a stand-up job at a reasonable price again and had my car ready for me after I played a round of golf....note to all golfers - do not "F" with P.B. Dye course unless you are man enough to take a beating and not quit golf!!!

Back to the car, Pete was correct in that the sub-frame inserts made a huge difference in the cars handling and feel over the rough roads. The rear of the car feels more like the front of the car now, no rear end step out on the nasty bumps on the twisties in Rock creek park on the way to work. Car stayed planted instead of hopping too one side or the other when taking those curves today.

Had a chance to get on it on the highway a bit on the way home from TandT and of course some douche bag on acell phone glids across the lanes right in front of me and I had to break hard and switch lanes real quick and it was quite surprising how good the car felt during hard breaking, and when I switched lanes the car moved like it was on rails! No lean either way and the car just seems so much more responsive now, especially the rear end after the sub fram inserts...it was improved with just the front sway bar but the handling and ride is 10x better after the sub-frame inserts.

To sum it up the Pedders rear sub-frame inserts, front sway bar and end links got my car to where I wanted it to be: improved handling, less roll or lean on highways and on twisties, more responsive and planted during spirited driving on streets and better ride quality on bumpy roads. At this point I don't really feel like the car needs anything else to improve the suspension for my driving desires.

Yeah I could add the rear sway also but what will that add to my car for daily driving needs? Now if Pete decides to send me the rear sway bar and end links for free I wouldn't turn it down but in all honesty I can say that the set-up I have now got me what I wanted and I am 100% satisfied.

Thanks Pete for taking the time and putting forth the efforts to prove the points that you made about your products. Everything you suggested seems right on point so far and I cannot argue with the results of adding the front sway bar only and the rear sub-frame inserts. I will let you know if I notice anything different after driving it for an extended time but at this point I would have to give you and Pedders a big

Thanks JP
JP,

I highly recommend Pedders street friendly urethane golf shoe inserts. We have a variety of wedge angles to adjust your stance and improve you swing.

The lowest hanging fruit for ANY Camaro owner, the very first mod that EVERY Camaro owner should make is to install Pedders EP1200 Sub-Frame Inserts. Rear end step out unsettles the car and make it less predictable. All a top flight professional drivers ever asks for is stability and predictability. The first foundational step to that in a 5th Gen Camaro is installing EP1200s.

Pete was correct in that the sub-frame inserts made a huge difference in the cars handling and feel over the rough roads. The rear of the car feels more like the front of the car now, no rear end step out on the nasty bumps on the twisties in Rock creek park on the way to work. Car stayed planted instead of hopping too one side or the other when taking those curves today.

Please let my wife and three daughters know that I was right about this or anything else for that matter.

We are in business to sell suspension parts for late model American Muscle. I would love to tell everyone on the Camaro forum you need thousands of dollars of Pedders bits to make your Camaro even better than it was when you drove it off the showroom floor. The truth of the matter is you don't. A larger front bar and sub-frame inserts transform the car. Please excuse the use of that word, but they do transform the car. Add the inserts for the radius bushes and the car is next to perfect for 80 to 90% of Camaro owners. There are a hard core group of performance drivers that will benefit from more suspension modifications and we have the bits they need at Pedders for them.

The point of my involvement in this thread was to prove what we already knew to the people that count most -- Camaro5 Forum Members. On a very small budget you can TRANSFORM your Camaro and maintain 100% of your OEM ride quality. I want to thank JP (who has been confusing me with his initials as they are the same as my screen name) for his accurate and candid posts. How accurate are they? I could have written them myself and would not have felt the need to change a word compared to his. JP's comments have been dead nuts spot on accurate showing he is aware of what his Camaro was doing and how the parts that were added changed the driving experience. So here it is --

Thank You Jean Pierre. Thank you for trusting T and T and Pedders. We appreciate your business. Welcome to the Pedders Nation!
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Old 08-30-2010, 02:11 PM   #92
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I have Hotchkis, full hard. Ride is just fine as daily driver.
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Old 08-30-2010, 04:38 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by JusticePete View Post
JP,

I highly recommend Pedders street friendly urethane golf shoe inserts. We have a variety of wedge angles to adjust your stance and improve you swing.

The lowest hanging fruit for ANY Camaro owner, the very first mod that EVERY Camaro owner should make is to install Pedders EP1200 Sub-Frame Inserts. Rear end step out unsettles the car and make it less predictable. All a top flight professional drivers ever asks for is stability and predictability. The first foundational step to that in a 5th Gen Camaro is installing EP1200s.

Pete was correct in that the sub-frame inserts made a huge difference in the cars handling and feel over the rough roads. The rear of the car feels more like the front of the car now, no rear end step out on the nasty bumps on the twisties in Rock creek park on the way to work. Car stayed planted instead of hopping too one side or the other when taking those curves today.

Please let my wife and three daughters know that I was right about this or anything else for that matter.

We are in business to sell suspension parts for late model American Muscle. I would love to tell everyone on the Camaro forum you need thousands of dollars of Pedders bits to make your Camaro even better than it was when you drove it off the showroom floor. The truth of the matter is you don't. A larger front bar and sub-frame inserts transform the car. Please excuse the use of that word, but they do transform the car. Add the inserts for the radius bushes and the car is next to perfect for 80 to 90% of Camaro owners. There are a hard core group of performance drivers that will benefit from more suspension modifications and we have the bits they need at Pedders for them.

The point of my involvement in this thread was to prove what we already knew to the people that count most -- Camaro5 Forum Members. On a very small budget you can TRANSFORM your Camaro and maintain 100% of your OEM ride quality. I want to thank JP (who has been confusing me with his initials as they are the same as my screen name) for his accurate and candid posts. How accurate are they? I could have written them myself and would not have felt the need to change a word compared to his. JP's comments have been dead nuts spot on accurate showing he is aware of what his Camaro was doing and how the parts that were added changed the driving experience. So here it is --

Thank You Jean Pierre. Thank you for trusting T and T and Pedders. We appreciate your business. Welcome to the Pedders Nation!
Let your family know that I will certify in writing that you were actually right about everything you suggested I do regarding my camaro suspension. They can then frame it and give it to you as a fathers day gift.

Glad to be a part of the Pedders Nation and hope that others get something out of this thread. The solution suggested was probably the cheapest mod I could have done regarding the suspension but it is well worth it. Both the sub frame inserts and front sway bar made a very noticable difference in the ride quality and performance of the car during daily and highway driving.

Thanks again Pete for the generous support and to TandT for doing a great install. I would definitely recommend this set-up to others that don't need a full race type set-up and more cash conservative.....ok broke camaro enthusiest.

Thanks JP
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Old 08-30-2010, 08:31 PM   #94
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You sir are quite welcome.
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Old 08-31-2010, 09:16 AM   #95
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Great thread and thank you JP' for bringing it up and Pete and everyone else for contributing.
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Old 08-31-2010, 12:54 PM   #96
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Great information passed here! Thank you guys, I learned alot. I had always figured that throwing a front and rear sway bar would do the job and never even knew about the importance of sub frame bushes. I have no experience in suspension and can relate to JP in his desired feel for a more "spirited" drive on the streets. Glad to hear you got what you were hoping for without any extra hassle thanks to the guys at Pedders being true experts.

I was curious what else could be done to maximize the potential of the Camaro's handling, braking and overall feel of confidence without dropping the ride height with lowering coils or coilovers?

I do enjoy every minute of the ride in this car after trading in a Japanese hatchback I had a year ago for it, don't get me wrong haha. There is a road by where I live and work that has a descent amount of adverse camber that is particularly noticeable at 10-15 MPH over the limit for the turn. This was really noticeable in the older hatchback's anemic stock suspension but not as much so in the Camaro. The rolling of the body though still provides a puckering experience haha.

Another quick question, after the modifications have been made to the suspension of the vehicle, are there any anticipated effects we can expect in regards to the wear of the tire when compared to the stock suspension setup?

Thanks!

-Will
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Old 08-31-2010, 01:26 PM   #97
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I was curious what else could be done to maximize the potential of the Camaro's handling, braking and overall feel of confidence without dropping the ride height with lowering coils or coilovers?

Another quick question, after the modifications have been made to the suspension of the vehicle, are there any anticipated effects we can expect in regards to the wear of the tire when compared to the stock suspension setup?

Thanks!

-Will
Will, there are a number of suspension upgrades that can meet your requirements. The most bang for the buck, besides front and rear sway bars and rear sub frame bushing replacements, would be Rear Trailing Arms and bushings, as well as Differential Bushings and Front Trailing Arm Spherical upgrade. These are all parts that will have no adverse after on ride height or alignment.

The Differential bushings help stabilize the rear end under power/engine braking. The Rear Trailing Arms and Bushing upgrades eliminate any wondering and rear end stability that is still present after upgrading the rear sub frame bushings. These pieces will also eliminate and wheel hop and trailing arm flex that Camaro owners have experienced. And for the front, the Front Trailing Arm Spherical basically takes an incredibly soft rubber joint that relies on compliance in the rubber to articulate, and makes it a streetable spherical joint that rotates accordingly for suspension travel and steering, while being infinitely stiff under braking loads. This absolutely transforms the front end feel of the Camaro.

All of those upgrades are very inexpensive for what they deliver to the chassis dynamics.

The only time you will need to worry about adverse affects to tire wear will be when changing alignment, which is typically due to a change in ride height (like with coilovers and lowering springs). Of course, there can be variations due to less compliance overall in the suspension, but the range of travel and static ride height will remain unchanged, which is the primary influence for needing a new alignment.

Let us know if you have any more questions.
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Old 08-31-2010, 01:50 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by will View Post
Great information passed here! Thank you guys, I learned alot. I had always figured that throwing a front and rear sway bar would do the job and never even knew about the importance of sub frame bushes. I have no experience in suspension and can relate to JP in his desired feel for a more "spirited" drive on the streets. Glad to hear you got what you were hoping for without any extra hassle thanks to the guys at Pedders being true experts.

I was curious what else could be done to maximize the potential of the Camaro's handling, braking and overall feel of confidence without dropping the ride height with lowering coils or coilovers?

I do enjoy every minute of the ride in this car after trading in a Japanese hatchback I had a year ago for it, don't get me wrong haha. There is a road by where I live and work that has a descent amount of adverse camber that is particularly noticeable at 10-15 MPH over the limit for the turn. This was really noticeable in the older hatchback's anemic stock suspension but not as much so in the Camaro. The rolling of the body though still provides a puckering experience haha.

Another quick question, after the modifications have been made to the suspension of the vehicle, are there any anticipated effects we can expect in regards to the wear of the tire when compared to the stock suspension setup?

Thanks!

-Will
Will,

Start small. Do the Solution A front Bar and the EP1200 inserts. You may find you are just like Jean Pierre and satisfied right there.

Another quick question, after the modifications have been made to the suspension of the vehicle, are there any anticipated effects we can expect in regards to the wear of the tire when compared to the stock suspension setup?

Great question.

We have NOT done any testing on this, but I will speculate it would be negligible. In THEORY reducing body roll and rear end step out should reduce the amount of tire scrub and squirm leading to improved tire life. It would be incremental if at all and hard to quantify because my guess is the Camaro will be driven harder since it feels better. On the other side of the question we can say with some degree of authority that these modifications by themselves will not wear out your tires faster or decrease tire life.
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Old 08-31-2010, 02:43 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by PfadtRacing View Post
Will, there are a number of suspension upgrades that can meet your requirements. The most bang for the buck, besides front and rear sway bars and rear sub frame bushing replacements, would be Rear Trailing Arms and bushings, as well as Differential Bushings and Front Trailing Arm Spherical upgrade. These are all parts that will have no adverse after on ride height or alignment.

The Differential bushings help stabilize the rear end under power/engine braking. The Rear Trailing Arms and Bushing upgrades eliminate any wondering and rear end stability that is still present after upgrading the rear sub frame bushings. These pieces will also eliminate and wheel hop and trailing arm flex that Camaro owners have experienced. And for the front, the Front Trailing Arm Spherical basically takes an incredibly soft rubber joint that relies on compliance in the rubber to articulate, and makes it a streetable spherical joint that rotates accordingly for suspension travel and steering, while being infinitely stiff under braking loads. This absolutely transforms the front end feel of the Camaro.

All of those upgrades are very inexpensive for what they deliver to the chassis dynamics.

The only time you will need to worry about adverse affects to tire wear will be when changing alignment, which is typically due to a change in ride height (like with coilovers and lowering springs). Of course, there can be variations due to less compliance overall in the suspension, but the range of travel and static ride height will remain unchanged, which is the primary influence for needing a new alignment.

Let us know if you have any more questions.
Thank you for the very detailed response! Out of all the recommended upgrades which are more geared towards those who are looking to pull more power out of their engine than what the Chassis was designed for in its stock specs? I have added the basics, a CAI and Cat-back exhaust with no plans of adding any other engine or exhaust modifications, so with a slight gain of HP and TQ over stock. I guess what I am curious of is what is truly necessary for just a somewhat stock output as compared to suspension upgrades out of necessity to keep up with the amount of power going through a modified engine and drivetrain.

-Will
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Old 08-31-2010, 02:51 PM   #100
will
 
Drives: 2010 Camaro SS/RS Black
Join Date: Aug 2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JusticePete View Post
Will,

Start small. Do the Solution A front Bar and the EP1200 inserts. You may find you are just like Jean Pierre and satisfied right there.

Another quick question, after the modifications have been made to the suspension of the vehicle, are there any anticipated effects we can expect in regards to the wear of the tire when compared to the stock suspension setup?

Great question.

We have NOT done any testing on this, but I will speculate it would be negligible. In THEORY reducing body roll and rear end step out should reduce the amount of tire scrub and squirm leading to improved tire life. It would be incremental if at all and hard to quantify because my guess is the Camaro will be driven harder since it feels better. On the other side of the question we can say with some degree of authority that these modifications by themselves will not wear out your tires faster or decrease tire life.
Hey Pete, thank you for the response. I was really impressed with the amount of feedback PJ gave on his fairly simple modifications. I was considering starting small and I don't aim to modify the suspension tremendously but I am also wanting to consider my options and jump all the way into a solution with all parts in hand, it seems to be a fairly exciting idea haha.

-Will
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