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Old 09-24-2010, 09:01 PM   #76
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Will GM dare manufacture the Z28 on an existing upper level engine??

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Originally Posted by DroptopZ View Post
I see your point, but don't you think that using the LS7 would make just as much sense as using the LSA, to a certain degree? While we can debate about whether 470 torque and 420 torque are a 'stone's throw' from each-other, I don't see the difference between using the two power-plants as it relates to the Camaro.

Logically, if the Z28 is using the LSA then THAT version of the Camaro SHOULD draw buyers from the base 'Vette, right? Probably not as much as you'd think. They are completely different cars... and while I see your logic that the Camaro being in a second, visually appealing package coupled with a back-seat might be 'added benefits' that lure buyers, I think the Corvette appeals to a narrow segment of the population and its nameplate alone draws customers (as evidenced by the fact that LS1 Camaros and Firebirds were nearly as fast in a straight line, and still sold, but so did the 'vette). The cars DO compete... if what you're looking at is straight line performance. HOWEVER, the Corvette is a vastly superior setup for track applications... and if you are craving a higher dose of HP than a standard Vette but also want blistering cornering, the Z06 is an excellent platform for that.

I suppose the essence of my point is that GM using the LSA or LS7 both make sense... and I could easily see them churning out an LS7 version of the Camaro to out-do the Mustang Laguna Seca edition, etc. After all, the LS7 is known to have a more difficult time with boost (in stock form) than the LS3 or LS9. It can be a BEAST with heads/cam, though. In fact, I think many of the people who like tuning N/A motors might be drawn to a 7.0L COPO Camaro that was slightly less expensive than the Z28. Do I think they'll do it? Probably not... but mostly because, for the small segment-gap in price, it wouldn't be efficient to do R&D on a 6.2L SS, a 7.0L "COPO" or similar, and the 6.2L supercharged LSA Z28. I agree with you that they likely won't use the LS9 as that is reserved for the flagship car, though...

By the way, I'm terribly sorry if I misunderstood your point. I'm exhausted and running on very little sleep

Au Contrair, DroptopZ!!!!

You got the point correctly. And your logic is sound too, although I beg to differ on the end result.

You are probably correct in that an LS7 engined Z28 will not draw too many buyers from the CORVETTE, however my point is: will GM dare to thread in such delicate ground???

As much as we, car enthusiasts, hate it, cars are manufactured as an enterprise product, profitability being at the core of each production cycle scheme.

While in better times I believe GM might have risked it and carry on the approach that you suggest, I believe that today's GM will not dare so.

The smell of bankruptcy is still pungent on its executive corridors and I'm sure more than one company director is secretly surprised, elated (and relieved) that during the economic debacle of the last 24 months, their flag sports car, CORVETTE and the new sport offering, CAMARO, made not only the black ink, but actually posted good returns and sustained sales figures.

Let's remember that these are dedicated platforms which share very, very little components with other cars produced by GM. Their figures have to make it on their own for them to continue being viable and to continue being a profit center for the company.

I do not know this for a fact but I will not be surprised if there is some corporate directive forbidding the Z28 to be developed at the expense of jeopardizing or affecting the market niche and the sales figures of the CORVETTE icon, which is making money in these hard times: the directive might be akin to "bring in more customers, not divide the ones we already have".

Then again perhaps I'm too locked in this train of tought and your proposal might make the best business model to follow for both model vehicles.

On one thing I'm certain though: there is still a debate within the powers that be at GM and until this is settled one way or another, we will have no real commitment to deliver the Z28.

Finally: my absolute respect to the businessmen and businesswomen of the car industry. My words towards them might sound harsh, however, without their focus on the business part of the equation required to manufacture, distribute and sell autos in a profitable manner, most of the automotive dreams that were once seated or are now awaiting inside our garages will have never seen the light of day.

I guess some boneheads have to do the dirty job...Ooopps!! Here I go again!

Best regards,


The Flash

p.d.: sorry about the previous incomplete posting... let's call it a botched gearshift..!
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Old 09-24-2010, 09:52 PM   #77
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Oh yea I've gotta have the 2012 z28. Steve Pace at Gus Palos chevy says no worries I'll be one of the if not first on the list when they are available to order. I'm friggin stoked.
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Old 09-24-2010, 11:08 PM   #78
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Flash, I see your point I disagree slightly, but I do understand exactly what you mean.

I suppose I think they'll be unlikely to use the LS7 only because there wouldn't be a market for mass-production of an LS3/L99 Camaro, an LS7, AND and LSA... but I do think that using the LSA is practically like intruding on the exclusivity of the Corvette's powerplants in the sense that it is more powerful than the LS7 and much like a de-tuned LS9. I suppose the end result of our reasonings are the same though: we will likely not see an LS7 Camaro :(

I'm still holding out for some kind of a 'special edition' that they might throw together with larger motor and factory warranty. But then, a 427 5G Camaro is my wet dream :P
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Old 09-24-2010, 11:49 PM   #79
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Now there, we see eye to eye

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Originally Posted by DroptopZ View Post
Flash, I see your point I disagree slightly, but I do understand exactly what you mean.

I suppose I think they'll be unlikely to use the LS7 only because there wouldn't be a market for mass-production of an LS3/L99 Camaro, an LS7, AND and LSA... but I do think that using the LSA is practically like intruding on the exclusivity of the Corvette's powerplants in the sense that it is more powerful than the LS7 and much like a de-tuned LS9. I suppose the end result of our reasonings are the same though: we will likely not see an LS7 Camaro :(

I'm still holding out for some kind of a 'special edition' that they might throw together with larger motor and factory warranty. But then, a 427 5G Camaro is my wet dream :P

Agreed DroptopZ : an LS7 engined Z28 is unlikely, much to our chagrin and automotive sorrow.

I have two hearts on the LSA though and that's why I was not even mentioning it: I fully concur with you in that using an LSA for the Z28 is like you presented it "intruding in the exclusivity of Corvette powerplants"... yet also it seems a logical option for a Z28 model from the pure standpoint of availability.

I agree with your view that to employ the LSA is a further transgression in this regard because of its output levels placing it just above the LS7 but below the LS9 (of which it is a detuned version of sorts as you wrote). This makes its use for a Z28 even harder to occur.

On the other hand, I cannot believe that GM will spend all the costs of developing this engine (even if its a spin off the LS9 there must have been some costs involved in re-designing, testing, etc.) plus the factory tooling costs and then relegate it to be exclusively used in the CTS-V.

No matter how good are that car sales (the CTS-V), I do not think they reach the levels required to justify a stand alone engine.

So this is where I harbor a little hope that this engine might find its way into a CAMARO chasis.

I have to be honest here: I do not believe it would be inside a Z28 though.

Probably towards the end of the production cycle of the fifth generation CAMARO, there will be a kind of special edition offering called an IROC edition, an Anniversary SS, a YENKO Classic, or whatever else.

It might not be manufactured in the higher production figures of a Z28 and so it will not detract much from the CORVETTE market, therefore abiding by all corporate canon and directive.

If I'm lucky that will not occur for another five years at least, so by then I hope to be able to sell my 2SS taking about 50% loss in its original purchase price, and put forward the additional cash for such collectible car.

I also have my delusional expectations on a more powerful GM manufactured CAMARO.

My brain's right hemisphere wishes it were a Z28 though, but the left side is very skeptical.

Let's see. In the mean time it was very pleasant discussing this issue.

Have a safe and enjoyable weekend,


The Flash
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Old 09-25-2010, 04:20 PM   #80
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Old 09-26-2010, 03:47 PM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Flash View Post
Agreed DroptopZ :

On the other hand, I cannot believe that GM will spend all the costs of developing this engine (even if its a spin off the LS9 there must have been some costs involved in re-designing, testing, etc.) plus the factory tooling costs and then relegate it to be exclusively used in the CTS-V.

No matter how good are that car sales (the CTS-V), I do not think they reach the levels required to justify a stand alone engine.
The Flash
The LSA has never been a standalone engine for the CTS-V only, Holden Motors (a GMC subsidiary/partner) has a Holden vehicle in Austrailia with the LSA and Vauxhall has an LSA variant in the UK (though it is built by Holden). So the LSA is already in at least three different GM lines/models.
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Old 09-26-2010, 10:42 PM   #82
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IMHO LSA engine making 580-600 Horse but rated at 550H.P. lets be honest this works too underrate it an people will think it's the shit and it won't compete with the other cars on a paper or real life a 600 horse maro Will not touch a zr1 x2 at the current vehicle weights. What the public is told and believes are usually far fetched from the truth. They could bump the power up in the cts-v but lets be honest it's a fast luxo barge who cares if you get beat by a camaro i got heated leather reacros for Christ's sake lol...
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Old 01-15-2011, 10:56 PM   #83
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Don't see the big deal. Put an SC, and some rubber on your SS and you have a Z28 ta-da.
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Old 01-15-2011, 10:59 PM   #84
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Don't see the big deal. Put an SC, and some rubber on your SS and you have a Z28 ta-da.
ive been saying that the whole time
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Old 01-16-2011, 09:41 PM   #85
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ive been saying that the whole time
You two can both simply slap on a supercharger on your LS3s and try and fit some wider tires (good luck making 285s and 325s fit, by the way), and then do a drag run or, even better, take a lap around a road course and see how close your non-Warranty SS comes to the Z/28. It won't even be close, you would get destroyed. There is a few other tiny details that you are forgetting about that will make the Z/28 a vastly superior platform: MR shocks, huge rubber, better cooling, more aggressive bodywork, awesome CTS-V brakes, and an intact GM Warranty.

But, by all means, keep modding those SS's of yours (and see if you can match the list above and come in under $50K), meanwhile the guys who buy Z/28s will mod them as well, and basically have supercar performance at that point.
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Old 01-17-2011, 06:05 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by tweeter81 View Post
You two can both simply slap on a supercharger on your LS3s and try and fit some wider tires (good luck making 285s and 325s fit, by the way), and then do a drag run or, even better, take a lap around a road course and see how close your non-Warranty SS comes to the Z/28. It won't even be close, you would get destroyed. There is a few other tiny details that you are forgetting about that will make the Z/28 a vastly superior platform: MR shocks, huge rubber, better cooling, more aggressive bodywork, awesome CTS-V brakes, and an intact GM Warranty.

But, by all means, keep modding those SS's of yours (and see if you can match the list above and come in under $50K), meanwhile the guys who buy Z/28s will mod them as well, and basically have supercar performance at that point.
How true. At the end of the day, you will still have a everyday SS. The Z in on another level.

As a owner of a modified CTS-V, it doesnt take much to make 700hp on a LSA equipped car. A 9.5 pulley and full exhaust for around 3k is a bargain
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Old 01-29-2011, 12:54 PM   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Flash View Post
Au Contrair, DroptopZ!!!!

You got the point correctly. And your logic is sound too, although I beg to differ on the end result.

You are probably correct in that an LS7 engined Z28 will not draw too many buyers from the CORVETTE, however my point is: will GM dare to thread in such delicate ground???

As much as we, car enthusiasts, hate it, cars are manufactured as an enterprise product, profitability being at the core of each production cycle scheme.

While in better times I believe GM might have risked it and carry on the approach that you suggest, I believe that today's GM will not dare so.

The smell of bankruptcy is still pungent on its executive corridors and I'm sure more than one company director is secretly surprised, elated (and relieved) that during the economic debacle of the last 24 months, their flag sports car, CORVETTE and the new sport offering, CAMARO, made not only the black ink, but actually posted good returns and sustained sales figures.

Let's remember that these are dedicated platforms which share very, very little components with other cars produced by GM. Their figures have to make it on their own for them to continue being viable and to continue being a profit center for the company.

I do not know this for a fact but I will not be surprised if there is some corporate directive forbidding the Z28 to be developed at the expense of jeopardizing or affecting the market niche and the sales figures of the CORVETTE icon, which is making money in these hard times: the directive might be akin to "bring in more customers, not divide the ones we already have".

Then again perhaps I'm too locked in this train of tought and your proposal might make the best business model to follow for both model vehicles.

On one thing I'm certain though: there is still a debate within the powers that be at GM and until this is settled one way or another, we will have no real commitment to deliver the Z28.

Finally: my absolute respect to the businessmen and businesswomen of the car industry. My words towards them might sound harsh, however, without their focus on the business part of the equation required to manufacture, distribute and sell autos in a profitable manner, most of the automotive dreams that were once seated or are now awaiting inside our garages will have never seen the light of day.

I guess some boneheads have to do the dirty job...Ooopps!! Here I go again!

Best regards,


The Flash

p.d.: sorry about the previous incomplete posting... let's call it a botched gearshift..!
Flash and Droptop:
You guys make very good points but are a few steps behind whats really happening! Get your LSA ( High HP Edition) Camaro now because in a couple years it's gone. Has nothing to do with Corvettes! The same thing that killed these cars in the late 60's and 1970 have doomed them again. Cafe standards (Govt fuel efficiency standards)

My bet is the 2012 wont be called a Z28 because the original Z28's had 302 cubes and were track cars (more about handling and SCCA), not 500 HP or 427 behemoths going stoplight to stoplight (read SS Camaro here). So with the 2012 having an LSA and 500 plus HP it will be called something else.

There wont be an LS7 to compete with the Laguna Seca Mustang, it will be a 5.5 liter, already in the Vette C6R when they moved to GT class. Maybe it will come out around the same time as the Camaro gets it's new redesigned platform and drops a few pounds (2014?) Maybe the next iteration Camaro with a 5.5 liter will be called Z28, competing with Fords Coyote engines/ Laguna Seca etc.

BTW, There are two Chevy dealerships already producing the Camaro's you want; an LSX 454 Cube NA and a LS9 SC'd Camaro. These could be called todays COPO's....

Check out DeNooyer in NY and NeSmith in Georgia as mentioned in GM's performance parts catalogue

Whether factory or dealer COPO, get your baddest Camaro now, because in a few years, they're all gone, as histoty repeats itself

http://viewer.zmags.com/publication/...e9#/0637c8e9/4

I know,

Best,
ZR1
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Old 01-29-2011, 02:01 PM   #88
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Who cares what original Z28's had, those cars (and that company, really) are dead. If that logic were true, since SS Camaro was top of the horsepower heap, we should never ever see a Camaro with more hp than a Camaro SS (GT500 be damned!).

As you can see, that logic makes little sense

GM can use any badging they want on any model they want, the 99.999981% of the population interested in a Camaro could care less if the badging "goes up against" the name of some car from the 60s or 70s they prolly never owned. I'd rather not yearn for a heyday by looking backward.

Who's to say GM wont hire out Yenko to do a Boss302 killer on the 2015 Alpha chassis? No one
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Old 01-29-2011, 02:40 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by tweeter81 View Post
You two can both simply slap on a supercharger on your LS3s and try and fit some wider tires (good luck making 285s and 325s fit, by the way), and then do a drag run or, even better, take a lap around a road course and see how close your non-Warranty SS comes to the Z/28. It won't even be close, you would get destroyed. There is a few other tiny details that you are forgetting about that will make the Z/28 a vastly superior platform: MR shocks, huge rubber, better cooling, more aggressive bodywork, awesome CTS-V brakes, and an intact GM Warranty.

But, by all means, keep modding those SS's of yours (and see if you can match the list above and come in under $50K), meanwhile the guys who buy Z/28s will mod them as well, and basically have supercar performance at that point.
You sir, tread upon my dreams and I find your breath rather offensive. -_-
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Old 01-30-2011, 11:08 PM   #90
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This car is going to be a beast.
hey man i like you are dead on
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Old 01-31-2011, 12:57 AM   #91
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I like it. but I'm with ssooch... ditch the sunroof.
+1 That is what I did on my SS. I have owned too many sunroofs. I like the extra headroom with the sunroof gone! !Vamanos!
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Old 01-31-2011, 10:11 AM   #92
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Underwhelmed, but then again.... pre-production and camo, wait and see approach.

Waiting for an MSRP before I decide on my order.
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Old 01-31-2011, 06:16 PM   #93
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Beautiful car, I wish we had and could get those wheels in post #11

My big question is why do they still have the ugly grill, why noy put the heritage grill on the Z?
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Old 01-31-2011, 06:32 PM   #94
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Interesting comments and automotive forecasts in here...
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Old 06-24-2011, 03:40 AM   #95
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any one seen a pic of the camaro with the chin spoiler without the ground fx pack?

holler at me!
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Old 06-24-2011, 02:25 PM   #96
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