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Old 11-04-2010, 11:42 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by ghazzi1397 View Post
Here are few points (IMO) that basically summarize why Mustang is doing better now.
1) The Camaro is slowly loosing its looks appeal, meaning that just six months ago people were willing to buy the Camaro just because it will turn heads, now with too many of them on street, they dont turn as much heads as they used to.
2) The Mustang doesnt turn heads at all, but people now are considering the performance advantage that the Mustang has, and probably think that the better performance provided by the Mustang is a better deal than the few turning heads provided by the Camaro
3) Mustang has 3 engine choices, Camaro only have two.
4) Mustang has convertibles, Camaro doesn't
5) Mustang has more OEM accessories than the Camaro (I dont understand why the Camaro doesnt have a lot of OEM accessories, and no performance accessories at all, even the CAI by GMPP is scrapped so far)
6) Ford offers more options that are available for the Mustang, including a class exclusive glass roof.

Except for part of point "1", I am in partial agreement. However - I'd like to add that I think SEMA is showing the auto' enthusiasts that GM is amplifying it's support for CAMARO, so now they just have to make that known to the public. I'm sure the ragtop will help that, but I'm crossing my fingers these numbers aren't a trend... I'm sure they're not though Camaro is still getting attention
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Old 11-04-2010, 01:32 PM   #27
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I think every year leading into winter we're going to see a build up of used Camaros on the lots. Probably over 1/2 of the Camaros made are SSs or RSs and will have summer tires on them. I don't believe most of the consumers understand the expense involved in regards to tires if you live anywhere that's below 40%. They either have a backup vehicle or another set of wheels and tires that are all seasonal.

I haven't checked, but I bet you can buy a Mustang GT with all season tires.
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Old 11-04-2010, 01:44 PM   #28
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Also, I would like the see the faces on SS and RS owners when they go to their tire dealer at 3,000 miles and ask to have their tires rotated. Or when they don't get 30,xxx miles out of them. How many of them start shopping to trade?
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Old 11-04-2010, 02:52 PM   #29
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I said it before, there should have been a "response" in '11 to the relatively minor issues with the camaro--Trak Pak, Performance exhaust, fix the passenger seat, a performance gear option. GM needs to keep it fresh every year--Ford seems to be able to do this, why not GM!!
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Old 11-04-2010, 04:51 PM   #30
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I've looked around a bit but could not find it.
Do we know how many 2010 Camaro's were built?
If so do we have a break down of trim levels, colors and options?

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Old 11-04-2010, 05:13 PM   #31
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Old 11-04-2010, 06:36 PM   #32
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I do not regret my decision to buy a V8 camaro. Although it was something to think about regarding the 5.0 poopstang being faster and getting better MPG. I put premium in my 2SS and I wonder if the mustang requires premium?

One downfall about owning a Camaro is having to carry 2x4 in trunk to fend off ladies!
You actually thought the 2010 SS was going to be the fastest ever when you bought it? Buying like that it always going to disappoint, cars are finally being made faster & better.

Pretty sure the V8 Mustang requires premium.
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Old 11-04-2010, 11:05 PM   #33
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No idea why so many people care how many cars are sold. Been driving this car around for a year and half now...just another car on the road at this point now...
Blasphemy! Never "just" another car!
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Old 11-04-2010, 11:20 PM   #34
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I am old so my opinion doesn't count. You have to go to the younger generation and ask them what cars they like and why. What appeals. So I go to my daughters and their friends and poll them... Mustang? Camaro? Charger? They like them all but for different reasons. The one thing I have consistently heard about the Stang "I don't like the way they changed the tail lights!" Never a comparison about of power! Ask them about the Camaro... "that is a cool car it just looks fast." Charger... "It looks like the old ones". Certainly not scientific but these were common comments from about a dozen different late teens/early twenties kids that I asked.

Candidly I don't think the sales has a darn thing to do with the preference at this point. I think we are in a double dip recession that the Feds didnt want to admit to right up to the election. Now the Feds have stated they are going to pump $600 billion into the economy by way of the banks in order to free up money for loans!

Let GM throw some attractive deals out on the 2011 Camaros now... just before Christmas time, and combine that with more cash flow at the banks, throw in the GM IPO stock sales and you will see a tick up in Camaro and all GM sales. No brainer there. SUPPLY AND DEMAND!!!
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Old 11-05-2010, 09:29 AM   #35
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What's initeresting is that neither the Mustang nor the Camaro are doing particularly well sales wise. 5000 a month is pitiful for both and tells me that this is a price point issue that could be solved with incentives or a lower MSRP.
Another point is that GM has taken the markup out of their cars for the dealer so if the buyer gets $1500 off he doesn't feel like he got a good deal, even though that's all there is to give.
Thirdly is that the Camaro's interior is just pretty awful. They could have done so much better with the steering wheel, soft touch plastics and interior design that was more grown up and less concept car.
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Old 11-07-2010, 02:43 AM   #36
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According to GMs investor site http://www.gm.com/corporate/investor...on/sales_prod/ GM produced 129,405 Camaros through the entire MY10 (April end of month '09 to June 7th 2010). Quick math using the chart shows only 100,306 Camaros were sold as of 3 June 2010 leaving 29k units were unsold when MY11 started. Oshawa operates at around 10k units produced a month (440-450 per day). Cutting production for a few months would help to remedy the over produced Camaro.

As far as incentives go, you will never see the MSRP drop once it is established by the manufacture. Once profits begin to turn, manufactures offer "cash back" instead of altering the original MSRP. It's a play of words, consumers would be put off if the sticker suddenly dropped $2000 vs. a Cash back bonus. Incentives say that the manufacture sold enough units to cover the cost of research & development, initial cost of production/personnel retrains and plant and factory prep is all paid in full and we (Ford) are making a profit.

I received a $2000 rebate on my 2011 GT in 8 March before the vehicles details were made public... incentives are just MSRP adjustments masked as bonuses. 0% financing on the otherhand is a tool used to clear remaining stock at the end of the model year.

Sales are everything and only second place to profit. GM needs to clean house, limit production temporarily, shorten MY11 and introduce MY12 changes late so nobody holds out. Left over stock will kill them in the long run, Ford sold the 76k Mustangs they produced and made profit. GM will be moving 2010 Camaros until April 2011 at this rate.
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Old 11-07-2010, 02:45 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by Sc0rPs View Post
You actually thought the 2010 SS was going to be the fastest ever when you bought it? Buying like that it always going to disappoint, cars are finally being made faster & better.

Pretty sure the V8 Mustang requires premium.
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Old 11-14-2010, 04:27 PM   #38
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As far as incentives go, you will never see the MSRP drop once it is established by the manufacture.
Are you talking spontaneously, or from MY to MY?

Quote:
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Sales are everything and only second place to profit. GM needs to clean house, limit production temporarily, shorten MY11 and introduce MY12 changes late so nobody holds out. Left over stock will kill them in the long run, Ford sold the 76k Mustangs they produced and made profit. GM will be moving 2010 Camaros until April 2011 at this rate.
The concept of dealer inventory is not new, and the company seems to be making positive steps on that topic.

Also while it's nice on paper to have zero cars left at the end of a model year...it's not practical. You need some overlap to suit the walk-in buyers. 2010 was an extended model year, so it's not surprising to see they've got some left over. Yet they are still selling in spades...at a steady pace, without any sort of incentives. Plus, the feature sets of the '10 and '11 MY are almost the same...blending the cars to consumers. So long as they continue to sell a good healthy amount of these cars by the time the '12s are released...they'll be fine. Moreso if they choose to offer MY-end incentives on '11s and '10s.
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Old 11-17-2010, 12:56 PM   #39
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Are you talking spontaneously, or from MY to MY?


The concept of dealer inventory is not new, and the company seems to be making positive steps on that topic.

Also while it's nice on paper to have zero cars left at the end of a model year...it's not practical. You need some overlap to suit the walk-in buyers. 2010 was an extended model year, so it's not surprising to see they've got some left over. Yet they are still selling in spades...at a steady pace, without any sort of incentives. Plus, the feature sets of the '10 and '11 MY are almost the same...blending the cars to consumers. So long as they continue to sell a good healthy amount of these cars by the time the '12s are released...they'll be fine. Moreso if they choose to offer MY-end incentives on '11s and '10s.
Sorry for the late reply... The original MSRP is determined when the model is introduced ('04 for the Mustang, '09 for the Camaro). The first two production years of a new model is critical. (I will use the MY05 & MY06 Mustang as an example, don't hate me, its just a good example) Research & Developement is expensive, to say that Ford made a "brand new" Mustang would be a bare faced lie. Ford overlaps drivetrains and redesigns to midigate R&D cost. Think back, Ford never introduced a ground up new Mustang. The '05-'09 bodied 4.6 paid for itself in 05-06 selling 160k and 150k units in those years (07 was strong at 133k). This is when Ford introduced the $1500 cash back bonus, trying to pawn off a tired body style and the tired 4.6, not with a MSRP adjustment but a cash back bonus.

Even though improvements from MY to MY increase the original MSRP, (which improvements from the early 197s were non existent) cash back bonuses are given not to move MY stock, but to move a tired model after profits are being made. Ford was in the safe zone (profit), so cash back bonuses are masked as incentives and not a deliberate, public MSRP adjustment.

Now, those early profits are funneled onto the next drivetrain in '07-'08 and offset the cost of R&D as a whole. 2010 redesign is released and at the intorduction of the redesign in April 09, day 1 buyers are offered a $2000 cash back bonus masked as an incentive when it is actually an MSRP adjustment. Same goes for the 2011, the global block 5.0 will be paid for within the first year. I received my $2000 cash back bonus 2 months before the car was released...

In my opinion, GM won't give a cash back bonus until the 2012 model year. Even though they are in a different situation then Ford was with the '05 Mustang (Profits made from previous years paid to R&D for the '05) GM is doing the right thing.

As I stated before, there were almost 30k unsold 2010 Camaros as of 3 June, since the MY10 was a long MY anyway, MY11 should be cut to 8-10 months, hold out on the MY12 details till the last minute, limit MY11 to 5000-6000k production a month and offer NO cash back until they can and clean up stock in March with 0% APRs....

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Old 11-17-2010, 01:39 PM   #40
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As the stock left on dealer lots goes, profit outweighs practical, calculate demand based on yearly trends, produce units to meet demand only, if demand is low concentrate on quality to avoid warranty vouchers, save you profits and push an updated product with those profits...

Don't over produce your loaves of bread, nobody wants to buy 2010 bread in 2011... regardless of the suggested retail price adjustments, cash back bonuses, 2 for 1s or 0% financing...
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Old 11-28-2010, 02:40 PM   #41
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Wow! Pontiac was killed off selling 474,000 units in 2009, down from ~850,000 units a year 10 years ago. I hope Camaro and Chevrolet get their #'s up...
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Old 11-28-2010, 04:31 PM   #42
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Looks like the mustang is back to outselling the camaro. Not surprising, when they get a seller they let it get old and stagnent unlike the mustang which is always changing and evolving.
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Old 11-28-2010, 04:56 PM   #43
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Looks like the mustang is back to outselling the camaro. Not surprising, when they get a seller they let it get old and stagnent unlike the mustang which is always changing and evolving.
I wouldn't be so quick to assume that....
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Old 11-28-2010, 04:57 PM   #44
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Looks like the mustang is back to outselling the camaro. Not surprising, when they get a seller they let it get old and stagnent unlike the mustang which is always changing and evolving.
You're joking right?
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Old 11-28-2010, 05:02 PM   #45
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No. I know its only 1 month but I predict it will continue. I could be wrong.
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Old 11-28-2010, 05:08 PM   #46
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No. I know its only 1 month but I predict it will continue. I could be wrong.
We all hope you are wrong........ Do you own a Camaro?
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Old 11-28-2010, 05:47 PM   #47
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No. I know its only 1 month but I predict it will continue. I could be wrong.
Yes, GM is letting the Camaro stay old and stagnant, we can ignore the convertible going into production next year and the MCE coming the year after that.
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Old 11-28-2010, 05:51 PM   #48
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I wouldn't worry too much about the downward trajectory. Largely dur to the pent up demand and incrdibly hot start I do wonder what the long term sales targets are.
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Old 11-28-2010, 07:08 PM   #49
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We all hope you are wrong........ Do you own a Camaro?
Not at the moment, sold my gen 4 a couple months ago. I dont consider the vert much different than the coupe, whats the MCE?
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Old 11-28-2010, 07:18 PM   #50
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Having bought 2 Solstices in 08, and then watched as GM pulled the plug, nothing they do will surprise me. They let the Solstice stagnate for 3 years, with no improvements or changes, even when there were changes needed.(simple changes would have made a huge difference, but they did nothing) How many times has GM, in it's waffling, killed a good car after letting it dangle?
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