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Old 12-04-2010, 10:36 PM   #26
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Old 12-04-2010, 11:23 PM   #27
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Maybe but I bought a 2011 Camaro over the Mustang.
Me too. But I have to admit the Mustang 5.0 is very good. I could have been happy with either. But every time I get in and drive my Camaro, it is a great feeling. I made the right choice for me.

After 3 fourth gens I am happy to see the Camaro come back strong. Looking forward to a lighter version. 2014 sounds about right to get another one. I hope the power is still there.

Now on to the mods....
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Old 12-04-2010, 11:39 PM   #28
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Not likely. Their combined totals with convertibles can't touch Camaro coupe numbers. Add in the Camaro Converts and the small numbers of Z28s that will be purchased. 2011 will be owned by the Camaro.
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Old 12-05-2010, 01:09 AM   #29
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Your right! Why is this Ford guy on Camaro5. To let u know that 4.6 was a horrible engine. Have u ever seen one of those Ford engines in a shop? They are terrible to work on. That new 5.0 is a very nice engine but i would not wanna work on it 5-10 years down the road.
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Old 12-05-2010, 03:38 AM   #30
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You're sure right about the mess you'd get into working on the 5.0 ford motor. Can you imagine the mess after the timing chains breaks and sends who knows how many bent or broken valves through pistons, and just tears the crap out of the motor. I like my pushrod LS3 just fine. And one more little thing, what is that mustang maniac doing on our Camaro forum, lol, he sure isn't trying to make any friends is he???? I thought this forum is meant for lovers of a very fine automobile that Chevy has produced.
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Old 12-05-2010, 03:47 AM   #31
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So hows that for the "cheap interior, horrible visability, and fat design?" i think the public showed all the critics, especially those two-faced internet auto-reviewers, who the real winner is. I got seriously tired of seeing Camaro reviews in 2009 that said "this car is AMAZING! I just shat myself! And again! Everything is perfect, EXACTLY perfect!" and then in 2010 everything they praised about it they totally shot down, like the "innovative and exciting interior" they turned into "clumsy cheap plastic" the "sporty and stable independant suspension" they turned into "fat and slow reacting" it was rediculous to listen too. But alas, the public has spoken, and the customer is always right :-)

And as far as that Mustang guy goes, in his "drives" column it happens to say "2011 Mustang" so of course he's probly cryin himself to sleep. "but mines faster, and newer, and and, waaaa, its not supposed to be like thiisss, Mustangs are supposed to be Mr. Popularity agaaiinnn" Although in his defense (take it as you will though) id almost rather have my car sell less just cause i dont want every other car on the road to be the same thing im driving *cough cough* lol, id be super annoyed if i was stoked for years to get this AWSOME Camaro and here i got it and 5 miles outside the dealer the exact same one, color model and all, pulls up right next to me. Thats what makes me like the Challenger still, it may be waaayy behind but its so exclusive its actually pretty cool.

PS: On the engine discussion, the 4.6swere indeed horrible, the best thing they could do was they actually sounded pretty cool with the right cam but beyond that nada. The 5.0 is pretty awsome with all its power and efficiency but dual overhead camshafts? That'd be a nightmare to work on for the standard enthusiest. The LS motors however are among the best motors ive ever seen, and i dont just say this cause im a GM supporter (yes, GM, not juuust Chevy haha =P) but because hey, have you ever seen a blown LS motor? (not supercharged! I mean dead! lmao)...*cricket cricket*...nahh, lol, didnt think so, they're friggin bomb-proof with an eeennddless aftermarket, they're literally the perfect hot rod motor
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Old 12-05-2010, 04:52 AM   #32
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The problem with your argument is that part of the reason why Ford sold almost all it's 2010's is because they discounted them over $8k so they didn't sit on the lots for all eternity. GM has only offered an accessory incentive of $1,500 on remaining 2010's and in spite of Ford putting decent engines in the mustang the Camaro is still ahead month to month. While the Mustang 5.0's newness came and went and their sales jump died almost instantly. That is the difference. Clearly we are not going to agree. Time will tell and I'm confident that the Camaro will be just fine.
Ford gave a $2000 cash back bonuses on 2010s in January 2009, almost 4 months before they were on dealer lots. Same thing with the 2011 Mustang, I received a $2000 cash back bonus in March. Its hardly a clearance sale when units produced/sold in Jan, Feb and March were zero. I have heard of a few people getting $8k under MSRP for a 2010 but they were very few and that included the X-plan.

As far as a sales jump dying so quickly, it should... Seasonal trends always show a good 25-30% decrease in sales going into the fall. If Ford would have started production on the 2011s on 1 January 2010 with units on the lots by 1 March, Do you think the Camaro would have still outsold the Mustang or do you think the 7k unit gap would have held? Having an entire Spring/Summer to spike sales, 2011 hold outs would have only reflected Jan and Feb sales instead of the whole first quarter.

This year though, Ford intends to spike sales with a staggered MY release. The 2012 GT500s start production on 1 Jan 2011 opposed to the usual late April production along side the 2012 Mustangs. Last year, 3300 GT500s were ordered upon release with a "Ok to sale" in the summer leaving less than half as dealer deliveries. I am not sure how many GT500s were built last year (some say 5500) but those first quarter boost will even out slumping sales of the 2011 until April.

The Boss 302: Dealers are guaranteed one Boss (4600 dealers in the US and Canada) and additional 25% of Bosses will be allocated via a sales lottery that closed in September, you could be looking at 5700+ units. Most of the Boss pre orders took place 8 weeks ago and '12 GT500 (possibly the last GT500) pre orders are happening now so a sales spike is incoming on Fords side.

If Brand loyal Camaro hold outs wait for the Vert, it will have an enormous
effect on coupe sales and zero effect on Mustang sales. Sept to March is a very bad time for performance vehicle sales so I would expect a 4-5k units to be a regular trend (Dec/Jan sales will be the worst, Oshawa closes around that time). The 1st quarter leaves GM banking on a possible cannibal convertible, which the outcome in sales will not be clear until May/June.

Impulse buyers (the majority) are already on the GM lot, so I highly doubt they will pick up a Ford Mustang there and totally disregard the Camaro coupe. Hypes and Trade ins have either become Brand Loyal or were Impulsive and have moved on to something more impulsive and are forever locked in the trade in/impulse cycle.

The reason GM needs to do something is because Ford is playing very dirty. Staggering two different Mustang model years, releasing the Boss order guide far in advance and allocating those units and holding the sales stats until next year. GM knows Verts eat Coupe sales, Just as Special models do, but crossing your fingers at this point is not a solid plan.

Release the Z28 along with the Vert in April, Don't be afraid that Ford will one up them, of course they will but it won't happen this year... That's another opportunity lost, because top tier buyers do cross shop before they buy and now the '12 GT500 is alone again ready to spike Q1 sales... Plan interior/exterior redesigns for '13 leaving only two more MYs before the 6th Gen. By years end, this model will be stagnant and a fresh exterior will get them rolling again... I wouldn't bank on the Z28 tipping the sales very far, even if it did, the late release will be too late.

Insinuating that I need to own a Camaro to understand sales and marketing is about as practical as requiring Sales and Marketing to have a degree in Engineering. Although I do know quite a bit about the Camaro, none of the technical specifications actually applies to this topic.
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Old 12-05-2010, 05:38 AM   #33
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I'm sorry thePill but my brother is a Mustang fan and was looking into one around the time the 2011 was hitting dealers. Dealers were THROWING 2010's at you. Ford may have only given $2k but the dealers absorbed huge discounts. The sales jump wasn't stopped due to seasonal it lasted two months and fell back down under the camaro. The only reason it even existed was due to huge discounts on 2010's. You talk about how the Camaro convertible will only cannibalize coupe sales and then talk about the GT500 and Boss 302. Those will impact and cannibalize the Mustang GT's sales. The Camaro convertible will cannibalize Mustang Convertible sales not Camaro coupe sales. GM doesn't need to worry much about Fords model release timing. Ford needs to worry about GM's.

On a side note there's no reason for anyone to attack thePill. He's entitled to his opinion. Even if it's wrong.
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Old 12-05-2010, 07:33 AM   #34
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I'm sorry thePill but my brother is a Mustang fan and was looking into one around the time the 2011 was hitting dealers. Dealers were THROWING 2010's at you. Ford may have only given $2k but the dealers absorbed huge discounts. The sales jump wasn't stopped due to seasonal it lasted two months and fell back down under the camaro. The only reason it even existed was due to huge discounts on 2010's. You talk about how the Camaro convertible will only cannibalize coupe sales and then talk about the GT500 and Boss 302. Those will impact and cannibalize the Mustang GT's sales. The Camaro convertible will cannibalize Mustang Convertible sales not Camaro coupe sales. GM doesn't need to worry much about Fords model release timing. Ford needs to worry about GM's.

On a side note there's no reason for anyone to attack thePill. He's entitled to his opinion. Even if it's wrong.
Dealers will continue to discount the remaining 2010s, look for a strong December sales month from Ford over November sales (see last year). December is clean out month for dealers, it is up to the dealer to drop below MSRP and those reductions really do not concern Ford directly. Its the 0%APR at the end of a MY that involves Ford.

The GT500 and the Boss do directly eat into the base market if released simultaneously with the base product. SVT intends on beating Ford to the punch and taking orders/producing GT500s before the 2012 V6 and GTs roll out. Orders are being taken now and most or all of the GT500s will be gone by spring. Add those sales to the Cash Back bonuses on the 2011 Mustangs (sales will be considerably higher since there are no hold outs for model upgrades) and you will have a very successful Q1.

The Boss on the other hand is very different when ordering the unit. Dealers are only guaranteed one Boss, So they are selling them right now but not counting those sales until it is released. Alot of the SCCA guys over on their website are buying them up with cash in hand. Those Boss models will roll out before the V6s and GTs to ensure they make the 2011 season cutoff in March. I am afraid that regular people will have a hard time buying these cars without money in hand. Once the dealer sells a Boss, they get chipped and could receive an additional Boss 302 or even a Boss LS (about 794 top Mustang dealers will be allocated a 2nd Boss and 500 Boss LS's).. This is all according to the SCCA drivers though...

The seasonal slump, this happens every year regardless of year, make or model. Even the Camaro's sales last year around September took alittle dip but nothing too bad. That is typical of a new product when sales consist mostly of impulse buyers, sales remain strong even through seasonal or economical trends. This is why CY09 everybody said the product was perfect, then CY10 people began to nitpick the product.. Impulse buyers develop tunnel vision and can usually never be turned away once they are set. The Mustang took a beating throughout the fall/winter of '09 and will most likely repeat a similar trend this year. Although, with the exception of August, sales have been better this year as opposed to last. Seeing a 10-20% increase in sales over last year at this time is pretty good when performance was the selling point and nothing else. Once dealers get a solid Job #1 date for the V6 and GT, expect those dealer incentives (not factory incentives) to pepper the entire remaining 2010 fleet. Nobody wants a 2010 Mustang in 2011, might as well be a used car but, the December flood will be dictated by remaining stock which could be very, very low...

Again, special models do cannibalize the base stock but the way Ford is playing it this year is kinda under the table dirty. Unless I specifically approach a dealer and request a GT500 or Boss 302 first, I could not be offered one at all. Also, since this is not common knowledge and Ford has jumped the gun significantly, the regular impulsive lot browser could miss out completely. SCCA guys are buying the hell out of the Boss 302...

That being said, a simultaneous release of the '12 convertible with '12 coupe will directly effect the sales of the coupe dramatically. the majority of people may opt for the V6 convertible over the SS coupe/vert due to price. Convertible people are unique, usually care/know nothing about the car other than the top coming down and will readily snub anything else on the lot that is not a drop top. There are exceptions of course, the loyal fanbase that are between a vert or a coupe Camaro... the Mustang should never enter their mind. Will it eat into the Mustangs vert sales? probably.. will it effect the Camaro coupe sales? there is no doubt in my mind, the coupe may suffer more so than the vert Mustang. The 1SS/2SS may take a beating too.

If I am wrong, then I am wrong... Just can't see any strategic advantage by holding out on the Z28 and banking on the convertible to maintain a 7k unit gap. Even if Camaro vert sales volumes were 30% on top of the 80k this year (which is saying that coupe sales maintained and the vert did not eat into the coupe) then that would be comfortable... convertibles usually make up around 30% of sales volume but only see increases in total product sales around 5-10% which typically means that, 20-25% of coupe sales are being effected just by the availability of a convertible.... It could be more.
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Old 12-05-2010, 08:07 AM   #35
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Yes...No doubt the Camaro is back...GM did a awesome job with this baby...I am glad i OWN and part of this huge family...
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Old 12-05-2010, 08:22 AM   #36
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i agree the more there are on the road the less unique we are....
although 2012 saleen does look cool ...i saw a white one the otherday.
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Old 12-05-2010, 08:54 AM   #37
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Why would Ford increase horsepower if there is NO competition. Do you see a GT500 HP increase this year? because there is NO competition...
Ummm..actually...yes, there was a horsepower increase between the 2010 and 2011 model year. 550 versus 540, despite there being no direct competition.
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Old 12-05-2010, 09:26 AM   #38
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Old 12-05-2010, 10:44 AM   #39
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Ummm..actually...yes, there was a horsepower increase between the 2010 and 2011 model year. 550 versus 540, despite there being no direct competition.
This year meaning GT500s MY12, but thanks for reading my post. That slight increase was a combination of PTWA and ESC and could be underrated by 1% (or roughly 5.5HP). Both technologies are becoming standardized and applied to Fords Halo car first. TiVCT incoming..

And that's a very nice car your driving...

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Old 12-05-2010, 12:59 PM   #40
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This one I couldn’t deliver at that time but do it now
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Old 12-05-2010, 07:47 PM   #41
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Talking For all the Stang lovers, unless you're a chick, then it's cool.

Ehh I like the Stang OK but it's like the guys with verts who think they have a muscle car, not a "sports car", sorry but IMHO verts are "sports cars", a little girlie for me. Sort of how many love the Vette, I like a Vette OK I just think of overweight late mid life crisis bad attorneys / dentists with gaudy gold chains or dumb blond strippers. Sorry if I offended anyone, just kind of how I see those vehicles, just not my style. Convertible Vette you say? Yeah total blond stripper or rich daddy's girl car, definitely a "sports" car, not a muscle car. Same with the Stang, it all applies, the coolest looking Stang I ever saw was a 69 mach1, couldn't beat a Camaro 'cos it was too light in the loafers, ooops I mean to light in the ass. It's a nice car, like apple pie it's very American, just a little girlie and cheesy for a real man, . . IMHO. It's a chick car, a "sports" car, not a mans muscle car. Showing off your mustang is kind of like a round about way for a guy expressing he might be "coming out" soon . . . . I mean I know a couple of cool Bros with Stangs, it's really hard for me to keep a straight face when they're bragging about their really cool wicked "chick sports cars" lol. Yes I own a Ford but not really by choice, I mean it's my wifes SUV and she likes it a lot but I mean it's OK for her to like what she wants, even if it is a Ford, she's a woman. In addition she got it with only 15K miles on it from one of her family members for cheap, so I put up with it, at least it's four wheel drive and NOT a mustang lol! Look if you're young, like to fake tan and dress / act like the Jersey Shore TV show and think Von Dutch is awesome and wanna drive a cool American chick sports car like the Stang, great for you, just expect me to LOL @ YOU if you try bragging about it to me.

DISCLAIMER: post intended for humor and meant to entertain, NO actual Ford Muskanks or AWESOME CHEVY CAMAROS were harmed in the making of this irresponsible (yet funny) post.

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Old 12-05-2010, 08:11 PM   #42
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DISCLAIMER: post intended for humor and meant to entertain, NO actual Ford Mustanks or AWESOME CHEVY CAMAROS were harmed in the making of this irresponsible (yet funny) post.

I read all that...then saw the puppies.
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Old 12-06-2010, 11:58 AM   #43
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Ehh I like the Stang OK but it's like the guys with verts who think they have a muscle car, not a "sports car", sorry but IMHO verts are "sports cars", a little girlie for me. Sort of how many love the Vette, I like a Vette OK I just think of overweight late mid life crisis bad attorneys / dentists with gaudy gold chains or dumb blond strippers. Sorry if I offended anyone, just kind of how I see those vehicles, just not my style. Convertible Vette you say? Yeah total blond stripper or rich daddy's girl car, definitely a "sports" car, not a muscle car. Same with the Stang, it all applies, the coolest looking Stang I ever saw was a 69 mach1, couldn't beat a Camaro 'cos it was too light in the loafers, ooops I mean to light in the ass. It's a nice car, like apple pie it's very American, just a little girlie and cheesy for a real man, . . IMHO. It's a chick car, a "sports" car, not a mans muscle car. Showing off your mustang is kind of like a round about way for a guy expressing he might be "coming out" soon . . . . I mean I know a couple of cool Bros with Stangs, it's really hard for me to keep a straight face when they're bragging about their really cool wicked "chick sports cars" lol. Yes I own a Ford but not really by choice, I mean it's my wifes SUV and she likes it a lot but I mean it's OK for her to like what she wants, even if it is a Ford, she's a woman. In addition she got it with only 15K miles on it from one of her family members for cheap, so I put up with it, at least it's four wheel drive and NOT a mustang lol! Look if you're young, like to fake tan and dress / act like the Jersey Shore TV show and think Von Dutch is awesome and wanna drive a cool American chick sports car like the Stang, great for you, just expect me to LOL @ YOU if you try bragging about it to me.

DISCLAIMER: post intended for humor and meant to entertain, NO actual Ford Muskanks or AWESOME CHEVY CAMAROS were harmed in the making of this irresponsible (yet funny) post.
Lol, What I got out of that post was that convertibles are like dumb blond strippers... they both look better with their top down...
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Old 12-06-2010, 02:28 PM   #44
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Rereading my post and piecing things together I think I have an answer to my own question.

Q: What is the strategic advantage if GM holds out on the Z28 and banking on the convertible to maintain a 7k unit gap?

A: GM realizes that both convertible and special models eat into existing coupe sales, staggering their release (Vert and Z28) will capitalize on a slight overall sales increases per model, gradually without cannibalizing the coupe. This also doesn't create two different kind of hold outs and won't drastically affect the normally slow Q1 sales. I'm still not sure about a fall release of the Z28, I am still thinking early summer would be best.
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Old 12-06-2010, 02:58 PM   #45
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.... Reviewers can say what they want but it doesn't matter. Sales do.
sounds like youre ready to worship the Toyota Corolla then.....
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Old 12-06-2010, 03:02 PM   #46
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Ford gave a $2000 cash back bonuses on 2010s in January 2009, almost 4 months before they were on dealer lots. Same thing with the 2011 Mustang, I received a $2000 cash back bonus in March. Its hardly a clearance sale when units produced/sold in Jan, Feb and March were zero. I have heard of a few people getting $8k under MSRP for a 2010 but they were very few and that included the X-plan.

As far as a sales jump dying so quickly, it should... Seasonal trends always show a good 25-30% decrease in sales going into the fall. If Ford would have started production on the 2011s on 1 January 2010 with units on the lots by 1 March, Do you think the Camaro would have still outsold the Mustang or do you think the 7k unit gap would have held? Having an entire Spring/Summer to spike sales, 2011 hold outs would have only reflected Jan and Feb sales instead of the whole first quarter.

This year though, Ford intends to spike sales with a staggered MY release. The 2012 GT500s start production on 1 Jan 2011 opposed to the usual late April production along side the 2012 Mustangs. Last year, 3300 GT500s were ordered upon release with a "Ok to sale" in the summer leaving less than half as dealer deliveries. I am not sure how many GT500s were built last year (some say 5500) but those first quarter boost will even out slumping sales of the 2011 until April.

The Boss 302: Dealers are guaranteed one Boss (4600 dealers in the US and Canada) and additional 25% of Bosses will be allocated via a sales lottery that closed in September, you could be looking at 5700+ units. Most of the Boss pre orders took place 8 weeks ago and '12 GT500 (possibly the last GT500) pre orders are happening now so a sales spike is incoming on Fords side.

If Brand loyal Camaro hold outs wait for the Vert, it will have an enormous
effect on coupe sales and zero effect on Mustang sales. Sept to March is a very bad time for performance vehicle sales so I would expect a 4-5k units to be a regular trend (Dec/Jan sales will be the worst, Oshawa closes around that time). The 1st quarter leaves GM banking on a possible cannibal convertible, which the outcome in sales will not be clear until May/June.

Impulse buyers (the majority) are already on the GM lot, so I highly doubt they will pick up a Ford Mustang there and totally disregard the Camaro coupe. Hypes and Trade ins have either become Brand Loyal or were Impulsive and have moved on to something more impulsive and are forever locked in the trade in/impulse cycle.

The reason GM needs to do something is because Ford is playing very dirty. Staggering two different Mustang model years, releasing the Boss order guide far in advance and allocating those units and holding the sales stats until next year. GM knows Verts eat Coupe sales, Just as Special models do, but crossing your fingers at this point is not a solid plan.

Release the Z28 along with the Vert in April, Don't be afraid that Ford will one up them, of course they will but it won't happen this year... That's another opportunity lost, because top tier buyers do cross shop before they buy and now the '12 GT500 is alone again ready to spike Q1 sales... Plan interior/exterior redesigns for '13 leaving only two more MYs before the 6th Gen. By years end, this model will be stagnant and a fresh exterior will get them rolling again... I wouldn't bank on the Z28 tipping the sales very far, even if it did, the late release will be too late.

Insinuating that I need to own a Camaro to understand sales and marketing is about as practical as requiring Sales and Marketing to have a degree in Engineering. Although I do know quite a bit about the Camaro, none of the technical specifications actually applies to this topic.

THIS GUY KNOWS HIS STUFF!!!
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Old 12-06-2010, 03:20 PM   #47
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One thing you forgot to mention and that is that next year will Camaro come to Europe too
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Old 12-06-2010, 03:41 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by Enator View Post
One thing you forgot to mention and that is that next year will Camaro come to Europe too
I personally hope that the Camaro sales are huge over here in Europe, give the foreign car makers a taste of their of medicine.

I am planing a photo shoot with camaro5 member DRB he is here in Kaiserslautern, Germany, he has a black 2010 SS and would be perfect with my '11 GT... Greg Champion will most likely be the camera man, he said he would do the shoot for free because it sounded fun...

I would love to do a Beaches of Normandy shoot, not a head to head, Mustang vs Camaro but America vs Germany.. but you have to be careful with any references to the N-word (the German N-word) It is very, very frowned upon.. and fines would accompany those frowns..

All pictures will be distributed, FREE OF CHARGE, throughout both Ford and GM communities..

Foreign countries make it hard for American cars, Heres a fun fact, from 1964 to 1979 Mustangs sold in Germany were called T5s. Mustang was the name of a large tow truck (no solid rear axle jokes please) and could not be badged with the original name. There is a very large T5 fan base here... even though Europeans say they hate US cars, there is still some who buy them...

Last edited by thePill; 12-06-2010 at 03:59 PM.
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Old 12-06-2010, 04:16 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thePill View Post
I personally hope that the Camaro sales are huge over here in Europe, give the foreign car makers a taste of their of medicine.

I am planing a photo shoot with camaro5 member DRB he is here in Kaiserslautern, Germany, he has a black 2010 SS and would be perfect with my '11 GT... Greg Champion will most likely be the camera man, he said he would do the shoot for free because it sounded fun...

I would love to do a Beaches of Normandy shoot, not a head to head, Mustang vs Camaro but America vs Germany.. but you have to be careful with any references to the N-word (the German N-word) It is very, very frowned upon.. and fines would accompany those frowns..

All pictures will be distributed, FREE OF CHARGE, throughout both Ford and GM communities..

That's actually a really cool sounding idea! I hope the shoot comes out well. I honestly have no animosity towards the mustang, I was just trying to be humorous and a little uncouth, making fun of the mustang and Camaro at the same time as Camaro owners are also stereo typed lol. I'm looking forward to the pics, I know the area you live in is truly beautiful.

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Old 12-07-2010, 02:11 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by Z28RockStar View Post
That's actually a really cool sounding idea! I hope the shoot comes out well. I honestly have no animosity towards the mustang, I was just trying to be humorous and a little uncouth, making fun of the mustang and Camaro at the same time as Camaro owners are also stereo typed lol. I'm looking forward to the pics, I know the area you live in is truly beautiful.

Normandy would be very cool but is pretty far from here, and even worse.. we would have to go into France...

I know your joking around, that's usually the reason I read your post. Besides, being Air Force and working with the Army.. I have developed pretty thick skin and a large variety of gay and mom jokes.
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