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View Poll Results: Your guess for the Z28 LSA HP rating
Less than 556 HP 95 13.65%
556 HP 158 22.70%
More than 556 HP 386 55.46%
We don't even know if the LSA is going to be in the Z28! Stupid question! 57 8.19%
Voters: 696. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 01-07-2011, 09:29 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by radz28 View Post
Between 580-600 horse, IMO.

I don't really believe GM is going with power between SS and CTS-V. I see many photos with the GT500 in prototype testing, therefore I'm thinking that is the target. Having said that, in order to be competitive now, I believe Z28 has to at least match the GT500 where it currently is. However, I believe the GT500 is going to get a bump by 2012, so I think GM will try to look ahead, bump it closer to ZR1, so it's not going to see a huge spread, if any, should it be a significant increase from the serpent. It has to make up for the weight, which I believe will fall in between SS coupe and convert', so I'm a little torn on how to propose it will get there.

Since I've read CTS-V's exhaust is quite conservative, and it being a luxury car, I believe their are restrictions that can be relaxed for Z28, resulting in a small bump from LSA level. It appears the intake and exhaust systems might be a little less restrictive when the V6 goes from CTS to CAMARO, so that's another little bit of support to me. In addition, the quad tips suggest dual-mode exhaust, like those featured on the Y-Bodies; another opportunity for a bit more power. It certainly sounded better in those videos at the 'Ring!

A new upper intake plenum suggests to me there's a little more development between LSA and LS9. Because the upper plenum doesn't appear to be as flat as LS9, maybe there is a little less restriction, so perhap we could see a 2300 running 1900 psi levels (10.5 to 9.0, respectively) and make the power I'm suggesting.

It'd be nice to see an upgrade to the short block, for the pistongs and rods. I don't think Ti rods are necessary, but it'd be nice to see the forged slugs from LS9 carry over, and maybe some forged H-beam rods from the GMPP catalog. I'd like to see LS9's cam come over, too, since it doesn't have to be conservative, like one would expect in a luxury vehicle, like CTS-V. It'd be nice to be able to grow, safely, to 600-650 RWHP, like the GT500 can (and more...), but I can't complain, too much, knowing that if GM releases a 600 horse' Z28, it can't be pushed to 700 horse' with a little pulley, CAI, and exhaust upgrading/tuning.

I'm just crossing my fingers the chassis tuning will match the power in terms of performance. I'm sure we're going to be adding weight, so I hope GM can find a way to control it
I too believe that the Z/28's engine will be a hybrid of sorts between LSA and the LS9 as we know them currently. Remember that GM said the LSA was engineered for refinement for Cadillac and not for all out power and yes GM did have other supercharged engines in development prior to bankruptcy. The plenum cover on the prototype Z/28's engine is not like any we've yet to see by GM to date even though it say's LSA on the plastic cover, I think it could be for our amusement only and to downplay what's coming. This intercooler design is not like any so far from GM and it looks to have a much larger and pronounced intercooler compared to the CTS-V's. Note that the coolant lines on the prototype's intercooler is located on the front of the engine also.

GM also said at the introduction of the LSA and the LS9 engines was that the first big main difference from the two engines was the supercharger's size, 1.9L for LSA and 2.3L for the LS9.

The second big difference was that the LSA had a more efficient single brick intercooler compared to the LS9's dual brick intercooler on lowering the forced air temp. This was done on the LS9 to keep the hood design low which the camaro does not have an issue with since its cowl height is not as low as the corvette's.

The third is of course the forged pistons in the LS9 compared to the hypereutectic pistons in the LSA which was used because they are quieter and are much more tolerant on emissions especially start-up compared to the forged ones of the LS9. The hypereutectics in the LSA are pretty durable and can withstand a lot of punishment while producing high hp levels.

Hypereutectic Aluminum Pistons with Oil-Spray Cooling
Superior piston design sets the tone all of the 6.2L LSA's internal components. The engineering objective? Lighter, stronger and smoother.

The pistons themselves are aluminum-cast from a high-silicon alloy developed for its combination of strength and heat-management properties. Casting reduces noise-generating potential, compared to other high-performance piston materials such as forged aluminum, and is specified when NVH control is a priority. The hypereutectic pistons are also lighter than conventional steel, which translates to less reciprocating mass inside the engine. Less mass means greater efficiency, high-rpm capability and a feeling of immediate response as the engine builds revs. The LS9s pistons are made of forged aluminum. The key difference in material choice here, is the desire for refinement in the Cadillac application.

The combustion surface of the LSA pistons, or the top land, lacks the valve-relief pockets typical on high-performance engines with relatively high-lift valves. Rather, the LSA top lands are sumped, with a saucer-shaped indent that dips gradually from the outer edge of the piston. This design promotes a thorough mixing of air and fuel, and along with other durability enhancing features, allows a 9.1:1 compression ratio: higher than a conventional supercharged or turbocharged engine, for improved combustion efficiency.

The durability enhancements include an anodized top land, which reduces wear and helps deflect heat generated during combustion away from the LSA's bottom end. To further reduce wear, the piston skirt is coated with a polymer material, which limits bore scuffing, or abrasion of the cylinder wall over time from the piston's up-down motion. The polymer coating also dampens noise generated by the piston's movement. The wrist pins, which attach the piston to the connecting rod, were developed for maximum durability, with a large outer diameter and a tapered inner diameter. These pins "float" inside the rod bushing and pin bores in the piston barrel. Compared to a conventional fixed pin assembly, in which the connecting rod is fixed to the piston's wrist pin while the pin rotates in the pin bore, the floating pins reduce stress on the pin. They allow tighter pin to pin-bore tolerances and reduce noise generated as the piston moves through the cylinder. The benefit is less engine wear, improved durability and quieter operation.

Valves are among the most heat-stressed parts in an engine, and their wear resistance is crucial to long-term durability. Those in the LSA are manufactured from a high-chromium steel alloy called SilChrome 1 (The only difference between the LSA's exhaust valves, and the LS9s is that the LS9's are filled with sodium for the extra heat protection -- the LS9s intake valves are made of titanium.), with thicker heads than most other Gen IV V-8s. They promote heat transfer away from the valve face and valve guide to the cooler end of the stem, where it more readily dissipates. This maintains a lower, more uniform valve temperature, reducing wear on the valve guide for better alignment and a consistent seal between the valve seat and valve face over the life of the engine.

Finally, the 6.2L LSA represents the first line of small block V-8s equipped with oil-spray piston cooling. Eight oil-squirting jets in the engine block drench the underside of each piston and the surrounding cylinder wall with an extra layer of cooling, friction-reducing oil. The oil spray reduces piston temperature, promoting extreme output and long-term durability. The extra layer of oil on the cylinder walls and wristpin also dampens noise emanating from the pistons.

I don't think the Z will get the titanium connecting rods or sodium filled valves from the LS9 but you never know.

Stock for stock the LSA is a more durable engine test wise compared to the LS9 as was stated by GM at the debut. Regarding quality and durability, the 6.2L Supercharged LSA has been validated beyond 100,000 miles and accumulated more the 6,400 hours of dynamometer testing. It has run over 270 consecutive hours at wide-open throttle without a failure. (The LS9 has only accomplished 100 hours of this sort of testing!!!) It's been road tested in the world's extreme climates and track-tested under racing g loads on some the world's most demanding circuits. It has completed actual and simulated 24-hour track tests.

And just because the LS9 is rated at 638 now does not mean that it would not be bumped up a little to provide the Z/28's engine a little breathing room for it's hp rating.
The prototype Z/28 pic below looks to have a much taller intercooler cover with well defined twin riser to maybe house a taller version of the LS9 intercooler twin bricks for better combustion inlet temps.

The stock LSA as installed in the CTS-V has a rev limiter @ 6200 rpm yet it was shown to make more power well past 6600 rpm and was still climbing from this post from another site: http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/genera...sa-engine.html I think the Z/28 engine will not have a rev limiter of 6200 rpm but of one much higher. It showed 451 hp @ 6200 and 485 hp @ 6600 with rev limiter raised or removed, thats a 34 hp difference. The gm performance parts crate LSA has a recommended 6600 rpm fuel cutoff.

Pics below are of the prototype Z/28 engine, then uncle Robin Lawrence's LSA stuffed camaro bottom left, and last but not least an LS9 stuffed camaro bottom right for comparison plus some side by side parts pics.
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Old 01-07-2011, 11:43 PM   #102
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In my opinion, the Z28 will stick with the 556hp rating. GM doesn't have to fear the GT500, the 2012 MY has been finalized so no last minute upgrades will come from Ford. That being said, the '12 GT500 will have been released and sold out before the Z28 sees a dealership. If GM were to rate it higher and lets say Motor Trend compares the two to be dead even, it would make GM look bad. At 556hp, if it wins, it looks really good, if it ties, it looks good.. if it loses, the blame can go to weight and only having a 6hp advantage (torque is always overlooked).

Will the Z28 eat Corvette sales?.... What Corvette sales? and I hardly think that a buyer set on a Grand Sport is gonna pitch out extra cash for something he doesn't want... Z06/ZR1 people are Z06/ZR1 people.... they care nothing for Camaros...

I honestly believe that GM might be benchmarking the Z28 to the wrong Mustang, by the time the Z28 is available, the GT500 will be done, the 5.4 will be gone... and Shelby will be out again... Since the 2012 GT500 is being built right now, MY13s top model will be ready for Jan 2012 and since it looks like the Z28 will be out fall/winter 2011, with the GT500s gone for over 8 months and a new model in route in 4... victory might go the way of tooting their own horn.. if only for a brief time (see below)



Quote:
Originally Posted by ViperTomcat View Post
My guess is a twin-turbo 5.0.

If they do that..hello 650 HP.
Yeah, the 2013 SVT Cobra should sport the Twin Turbo 5.0, Turbo's are much better for extended uses such as road circuits. Superchargers get heat soaked after a few laps and horsepower decreases. Twin Turbos also complement the TiVCT way better so I can see SVT answering back with the "Road Runner" 5.0.

Here is a prototype TT 5.0 called EU-01, a collaboration between multiple companies.. They strap it to a dyno at 4:35, it made 552hp and 576tq.... at the wheels...

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Old 01-08-2011, 01:59 AM   #103
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Old 01-08-2011, 06:57 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by thePill View Post
In my opinion, the Z28 will stick with the 556hp rating. GM doesn't have to fear the GT500, the 2012 MY has been finalized so no last minute upgrades will come from Ford. That being said, the '12 GT500 will have been released and sold out before the Z28 sees a dealership. If GM were to rate it higher and lets say Motor Trend compares the two to be dead even, it would make GM look bad. At 556hp, if it wins, it looks really good, if it ties, it looks good.. if it loses, the blame can go to weight and only having a 6hp advantage (torque is always overlooked).

Will the Z28 eat Corvette sales?.... What Corvette sales? and I hardly think that a buyer set on a Grand Sport is gonna pitch out extra cash for something he doesn't want... Z06/ZR1 people are Z06/ZR1 people.... they care nothing for Camaros...

I honestly believe that GM might be benchmarking the Z28 to the wrong Mustang, by the time the Z28 is available, the GT500 will be done, the 5.4 will be gone... and Shelby will be out again... Since the 2012 GT500 is being built right now, MY13s top model will be ready for Jan 2012 and since it looks like the Z28 will be out fall/winter 2011, with the GT500s gone for over 8 months and a new model in route in 4... victory might go the way of tooting their own horn.. if only for a brief time (see below)





Yeah, the 2013 SVT Cobra should sport the Twin Turbo 5.0, Turbo's are much better for extended uses such as road circuits. Superchargers get heat soaked after a few laps and horsepower decreases. Twin Turbos also complement the TiVCT way better so I can see SVT answering back with the "Road Runner" 5.0.

Here is a prototype TT 5.0 called EU-01, a collaboration between multiple companies.. They strap it to a dyno at 4:35, it made 552hp and 576tq.... at the wheels...


If gm is to test against a car that doesn't exist yet then how can they bench mark something that isn't out?

GM is testing against what's out and improving beyond that. They should have the answer for current production, and wiggle room for any answer ford has to offer. keyword there is should.
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We do not want to use the Z28 moniker on a car that does not deserve this hallowed name.
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Old 01-08-2011, 10:59 AM   #105
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Originally Posted by boxmonkeyracing View Post
If gm is to test against a car that doesn't exist yet then how can they bench mark something that isn't out?

GM is testing against what's out and improving beyond that. They should have the answer for current production, and wiggle room for any answer ford has to offer. keyword there is should.
Bench marking the Z28 on the current (or in this case both 2011 and 2012) GT500 will set the Z28s mark at or very close to the advertised 556hp. The '12 GT500 will be on dealer lots in a few weeks and upgrades, other then a few cosmetic options are available over last year. If the Z28 starts production in the fall, the GT500 will be an old product and the Z28 will have been bench marked to an 8 month old unit.

Doing so, any victory could come as only a whisper in most eyes as did the '11 GTs victory over the '10 SS. I'm almost positive GM knows Ford intended to twin turbo the 5.0. It was even made quite public that the "Road Runner" was in the works, but Fords methods of product deception is just as comical, if not more than GMs.

Ford went public with the TT 5.0 in October 2009 and in December '09 stated that "There will be no TT 5.0 for the GT500" and "There simply isn't enough room under the hood for TTs"... As I said before, Ford wasn't lying... the truth changed... There will not be a GT500 in production to receive the TT 5.0 and the TTs used on the 5.0 does not fit under the hood, it fits in the two identical notches on each side of the transmission Ford developed the GT with for some reason... Some people thought it was just clear space to service the transmission easier.

Its an ideal placement of a Twin Turbo kit, it lowers the extra weight center and moves that weight mid vehicle. It also places the twin turbos directly in line with the dual exhaust. TT also produces power at a higher RPM allowing the Cobra to launch from a dig without blowing the tires off of 285s. A S/C creates a broad low end torque curve and puts power to the ground immediately where a TT spools slowly... It will launch like a GT but pull like a GT500. Up high though, a S/C is garbage and after a few laps, it becomes a disadvantage rather than a modifier. Europeans use turbos in road racing with great results.



All that I am saying is, if you plan on building a Superbowl team or training a prize fighter, do not move your Z28 chess piece according to the GT500s build and game plan last year...

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Old 01-08-2011, 02:36 PM   #106
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575 Horsepower

Doubt they will go 600 horse on this build. But they might not certify the HP right off, just like what happened with the V6. Politics and timing are everything. With the way gas prices are going... hmmm. That alone could hammer all sales. The gas companies are gonna put a death nail in any economic recovery as their greed overtakes logic.
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Old 01-08-2011, 02:42 PM   #107
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Doubt they will go 600 horse on this build. But they might not certify the HP right off, just like what happened with the V6. Politics and timing are everything. With the way gas prices are going... hmmm. That alone could hammer all sales. The gas companies are gonna put a death nail in any economic recovery as their greed overtakes logic.
Its the other way around actually, economic recovery is fueling the rise in gas prices.
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Old 01-08-2011, 03:45 PM   #108
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I think we'll see it in the 580-600hp range. Some people make some good points about comparing it to the CTS-V but they over look a lot of things as well. Like even if the Camaro has the same horsepower as the CTS-V its going to be a lighter car because the CTS-V is a luxury car and the Camaro is a performance car. You've got to remember that people going to buy the CTS-V (like the Corvette) are a different breed of buyers looking for a different kind of machine, they want performance and world-class luxury, Camaro buyers want a balls-out American performance legend, hell most of the reason they'll buy it is for the namesake alone. I never bought into the "higher performance in a lower car will kill the prices of lower performance in a higher car" idea. Plus GM knows that the Z28 is going to pull people to the showroom floor a LOT more than the CTS-V will, whether the buyer goes home with a Z28 or a Malibu that car will bring the customer in and GM isnt going to neglect it for some stupid sibling rivalry like that.

And all that being said i do believe it will be the LSA in the Camaro, because GM and everyone else has all but come flat out and said it, just stating what engine it is wont give everything away to the competition. Plus at this point everyone is so hyped about the LSA that GM feels it would be letting the car's fanbase down if it did anything other than the LSA. I personally am disappointed in this cause id much rather see an N/A Z28, id rather see the LS7 or a factory version of the LSX454 in it, im more of a fan of camshaft thump than supercharger whine, plus a headline like "N/A Z28 Beats Out Supercharged Shelby" would be more than satisfying to me haha. But alas, im not making the car and my oppinion doesnt really matter, even though there's equal N/A motors and better supercharged motors its still 98% sure going to be the LSA.
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Old 01-08-2011, 03:57 PM   #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thePill View Post
Bench marking the Z28 on the current (or in this case both 2011 and 2012) GT500 will set the Z28s mark at or very close to the advertised 556hp. The '12 GT500 will be on dealer lots in a few weeks and upgrades, other then a few cosmetic options are available over last year. If the Z28 starts production in the fall, the GT500 will be an old product and the Z28 will have been bench marked to an 8 month old unit.

Doing so, any victory could come as only a whisper in most eyes as did the '11 GTs victory over the '10 SS. I'm almost positive GM knows Ford intended to twin turbo the 5.0. It was even made quite public that the "Road Runner" was in the works, but Fords methods of product deception is just as comical, if not more than GMs.

Ford went public with the TT 5.0 in October 2009 and in December '09 stated that "There will be no TT 5.0 for the GT500" and "There simply isn't enough room under the hood for TTs"... As I said before, Ford wasn't lying... the truth changed... There will not be a GT500 in production to receive the TT 5.0 and the TTs used on the 5.0 does not fit under the hood, it fits in the two identical notches on each side of the transmission Ford developed the GT with for some reason... Some people thought it was just clear space to service the transmission easier.

Its an ideal placement of a Twin Turbo kit, it lowers the extra weight center and moves that weight mid vehicle. It also places the twin turbos directly in line with the dual exhaust. TT also produces power at a higher RPM allowing the Cobra to launch from a dig without blowing the tires off of 285s. A S/C creates a broad low end torque curve and puts power to the ground immediately where a TT spools slowly... It will launch like a GT but pull like a GT500. Up high though, a S/C is garbage and after a few laps, it becomes a disadvantage rather than a modifier. Europeans use turbos in road racing with great results.



All that I am saying is, if you plan on building a Superbowl team or training a prize fighter, do not move your Z28 chess piece according to the GT500s build and game plan last year...

I think most muscle car guys preffer a broad torque range over high spooling turbos. Its all in the launch, if it doesnt snap your neck off the line and make all kinds of evil noises doing so then i dont want to buy it. And evil noises dont consist of wind-tunnel testing LOL. I dont really care about the top-end of my car because 99.9% of the time its not gonna be on a track, its gonna be launching from a stop light, and by the time i hit 80mph i'll be at another stop light, so i want to be able to smash that GT from light to light, not match it.
Besides isnt there already a TT Taurus? Does it use the same transmission? That might be why it was designed like that, just for the Taurus with no intention of using TT in a Mustang.
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Old 01-08-2011, 04:09 PM   #110
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More then 556bhp. Im guessing it wont get the CTS-V 1900 series S/C and will be the larger 2300. 590hp!?!?
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Old 01-08-2011, 04:13 PM   #111
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Picture of the motor in the test car looks closer to the LS-9 intercooler than the LSA despite its label.
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Old 01-08-2011, 08:25 PM   #112
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I will guess the 2012 Z/28 will be 500-525hp(just a thought)..And if the 2012 Z/28 is going to be over 575hp I am going to cringe at what GM/Chevy will be asking price wise for this ride..I am going out on a limb and say it will be priced around the 2011 CTS-V.. I can bet GM knows that the 2012 Z/28 will be in demand, so I'm sure prices will reflect it..I just hate to see a Camaro going to be priced out of range of most folks,boo-hoo...
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Old 01-08-2011, 08:48 PM   #113
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I will guess the 2012 Z/28 will be 500-525hp(just a thought)..And if the 2012 Z/28 is going to be over 575hp I am going to cringe at what GM/Chevy will be asking price wise for this ride..I am going out on a limb and say it will be priced around the 2011 CTS-V.. I can bet GM knows that the 2012 Z/28 will be in demand, so I'm sure prices will reflect it..I just hate to see a Camaro going to be priced out of range of most folks,boo-hoo...
1. The Z/28s benchmark is the GT500, so it is going to need more than 550 hp to get the same numbers the GT500 does due to the Camaros weight disadvantage.

2. There is no way that the Z/28 will be priced the same as a CTS-V. You are not just paying for the engine in a V, you are also paying for a luxury car with luxury amenities.

I say the Camaro will have around 575 hp and will have a starting price of $52,995.
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Old 01-08-2011, 10:02 PM   #114
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Picture of the motor in the test car looks closer to the LS-9 intercooler than the LSA despite its label.

It is an LSA in the test car with a redesigned intercooler lid to fit under the Camaro's cowl. Note the angle of the throttle body in relation to the LS9.
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Old 01-08-2011, 11:14 PM   #115
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There is a ton of good stuff to search in here...This what it took "Uncle Robin" Lawrence to run 10's

• GMPP CTS-V LSA Crate engine
• Kooks headers and full exhaust system
• Lunati cam
• GMPP CNC cylinder heads
• Performance Transmissions 4L80E transmission
• ProTorque converter with 4000 RPM stall
• Lingenfelter pulley system, 63-pound injectors, fuel pump, blower coupler, and intercooler
• ATI balancer with 10% overdrive
• Bosch intercooler pump
• 100% stock rearend
• One piece Jerry Bickel-built driveshaft
• Stock starter
• Abaco Mass air meter
• Mickey Thompson 305/45/18 ET Drag Radial tires
• VP 100 unleaded fuel
• Tuned with HP Tuners tuning software
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Old 01-09-2011, 01:08 AM   #116
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I think most muscle car guys preffer a broad torque range over high spooling turbos. Its all in the launch, if it doesnt snap your neck off the line and make all kinds of evil noises doing so then i dont want to buy it. And evil noises dont consist of wind-tunnel testing LOL. I dont really care about the top-end of my car because 99.9% of the time its not gonna be on a track, its gonna be launching from a stop light, and by the time i hit 80mph i'll be at another stop light, so i want to be able to smash that GT from light to light, not match it.
Besides isnt there already a TT Taurus? Does it use the same transmission? That might be why it was designed like that, just for the Taurus with no intention of using TT in a Mustang.
Both Twin Turbos and Superchargers create more peak HP/TQ than anything, traditionally, S/Cs peak much lower than Turbos. From idle to 4500rpm S/Cs have a nice HP curve, Turbos pick up at 3500 all the way to the engines ceiling. When MPGs are concerned, as long as you operate a Turbo under the spool, its almost like driving a regular V8 (what some people call turbo lag) and fuel mileage will reflect that kind of driving. S/Cs are constantly pulling, even at idle.. This is also why S/Cs become heat soaked quickly and lose power after extended use. For drag racing, a cool down is required between races to maximize power.

In 3-4 years, I'm not sure either of these cars will be labeled "Muscle Cars" or "Pony Cars". The term "Sports Coupe" is known the world over and if either of these companies intend on selling a performance vehicle in other parts of the world.. They will ditch that stereotype..

The SHO Taurus Twin Turbo 3.5l V6 has nothing in common with the 5.0 V8. Seeing a Twin Turbo on a V6 tells me that a TT version of a I4 and V8 are coming soon. With the 20% better MPG and 15% lower emissions a Single/Twin Turbo produces with Direct Injection makes it an automatic winner... add in the lower weight, better weight distribution at the same cost....

Besides, who wants a 20th Anniversary SVT Cobra that whines when you can give it Turbos and make it hiss?
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Old 01-10-2011, 04:22 PM   #117
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I can see around 590hp in the z28... Can't have as much or more than the ZR1 but its gotta have more than the CTS-V
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Old 01-10-2011, 09:38 PM   #118
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Originally Posted by TaylorRyanSS View Post
2. There is no way that the Z/28 will be priced the same as a CTS-V. You are not just paying for the engine in a V, you are also paying for a luxury car with luxury amenities.

I say the Camaro will have around 575 hp and will have a starting price of $52,995.
Except I see the hp higher, and the price lower.....At 53k you're well-withing optioned-Corvette territory...

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Originally Posted by thePill View Post
Both Twin Turbos and Superchargers create more peak HP/TQ than anything, traditionally, S/Cs peak much lower than Turbos. From idle to 4500rpm S/Cs have a nice HP curve, Turbos pick up at 3500 all the way to the engines ceiling. When MPGs are concerned, as long as you operate a Turbo under the spool, its almost like driving a regular V8 (what some people call turbo lag) and fuel mileage will reflect that kind of driving. S/Cs are constantly pulling, even at idle..
That's not quite accurate anymore, especially not with the twin-screw/hybrid roots superchargers companies are selling. Most come with a bypass valve nearly 'detaching' the unit from the engine. You'd use up more hp by turning on your lights at idle. I know at least Magnuson (who uses the same TVS rotors as GM) claims their units pull less than 1/3 hp from idle to part-throttle 2000 rpms.

And they keep boosting to redline, just like turbos. But Turbochargers, just by their nature will almost always produce more torque pound for pound of pressure compared to superchargers.
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Old 01-10-2011, 09:58 PM   #119
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Except I see the hp higher, and the price lower.....At 53k you're well-withing optioned-Corvette territory...
I do not see it being any lower than 50K. The GT500 starts just under 49K. And I do not see them putting over 600 hp, but I guess we shall see soon
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Old 01-11-2011, 10:08 AM   #120
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Originally Posted by WhiteKnight10 View Post
I can see around 590hp in the z28... Can't have as much or more than the ZR1 but its gotta have more than the CTS-V
Why...that doesn't make any sense at all...You seriously think GM is going to sell a Camaro for around $50K that has 590 HP, compared to a CTS-V for around $63K that only has 556 HP...come on, man.

Another thing, the fricking CTS-V Coupe already beats the GT500 in straightline acceleration tests and has faster lap times around certain tracks (see Road & Track this month). If the Caddy can do that with 4238 lbs, then the Camaro Z/28 (with great tires, improved suspension, etc.) ought to be able to do that with its relatively svelt sub 4000 lbs.

P.S. I know it's not only about HP, but even though the CTS-V commands a higher price tag because of its luxury amenities (and VASTLY superior interior), people will not really be happy to pay $13K more for a slower car. Cadillac is GM's halo brand, and there needs to be a multitude of reasons to entice people to spend tens of thousands of dollars more for a Cadillac, over a similar Chevrolet (having the Caddy be the clear loser in the performance dept. is most definitely not the way to do that).
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Old 01-11-2011, 11:37 AM   #121
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Originally Posted by Dragoneye View Post
Except I see the hp higher, and the price lower.....At 53k you're well-withing optioned-Corvette territory...


That's not quite accurate anymore, especially not with the twin-screw/hybrid roots superchargers companies are selling. Most come with a bypass valve nearly 'detaching' the unit from the engine. You'd use up more hp by turning on your lights at idle. I know at least Magnuson (who uses the same TVS rotors as GM) claims their units pull less than 1/3 hp from idle to part-throttle 2000 rpms.

And they keep boosting to redline, just like turbos. But Turbochargers, just by their nature will almost always produce more torque pound for pound of pressure compared to superchargers.
I also see superchargers with advanced cooling configurations to combat heat soak for road duty, or at least making an effort to do so. Dual brick intercoolers and a heat extracting hood really help, especially at moderate to high speeds.

I guess the best way to duplicate the Turbo's emissions and MPG is to engineer an S/C to do exactly what you explained above. Just as long as it doesn't affect the beautiful HP/TQ low end curve, that is something a Turbo cannot duplicate from the S/C.

They could take a page from the diesel's book and Twin Charge an engine (Super and Twin Turbo) but say good bye to your fuel mileage. Performance wise, it is very effective... but without diesel, gasoline won't see any advantages other than high output and a nearly flat curve.

Maybe bypass the Supercharger at a higher RPM when the Turbos are in full spool. Using the Supercharger to spool the Turbos, eliminating any lag the Turbos have and relieving the S/C at higher RPM for cooling... but who would attempt to engineer that monster... With 8:1 compression pistons, an extra 200+ lbs, two separate heat exchangers and a whine and hiss... might not be worth it but it would be neat to see on a gas engine.

either way, good info on the S/C bypass... something I can look into tonight.
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Old 01-11-2011, 12:27 PM   #122
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Originally Posted by tweeter81 View Post
Why...that doesn't make any sense at all...You seriously think GM is going to sell a Camaro for around $50K that has 590 HP, compared to a CTS-V for around $63K that only has 556 HP...come on, man.

Another thing, the fricking CTS-V Coupe already beats the GT500 in straightline acceleration tests and has faster lap times around certain tracks (see Road & Track this month). If the Caddy can do that with 4238 lbs, then the Camaro Z/28 (with great tires, improved suspension, etc.) ought to be able to do that with its relatively svelt sub 4000 lbs.

P.S. I know it's not only about HP, but even though the CTS-V commands a higher price tag because of its luxury amenities (and VASTLY superior interior), people will not really be happy to pay $13K more for a slower car. Cadillac is GM's halo brand, and there needs to be a multitude of reasons to entice people to spend tens of thousands of dollars more for a Cadillac, over a similar Chevrolet (having the Caddy be the clear loser in the performance dept. is most definitely not the way to do that).
I think they will. CTS-V is catered to the more affluent crowd who'd like as much luxury with their performance car as much as they want the actual performance. I completely believe they are for two different markets and feel there is a distinguishable difference. Personally, I'd walk right be CTS-V for Z28 if I had the money, because that's just how I am. I don't really think GM is going to shoot to steal many sales from competitors - I'm thinking Z28 will be for the CAMARO-guys and gals out there. Of course - I want them to sell as many CAMAROs as they can, so I won't be disappointed if they shoot for as many people as possible.

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Originally Posted by thePill View Post
I also see superchargers with advanced cooling configurations to combat heat soak for road duty, or at least making an effort to do so. Dual brick intercoolers and a heat extracting hood really help, especially at moderate to high speeds.

I guess the best way to duplicate the Turbo's emissions and MPG is to engineer an S/C to do exactly what you explained above. Just as long as it doesn't affect the beautiful HP/TQ low end curve, that is something a Turbo cannot duplicate from the S/C.

They could take a page from the diesel's book and Twin Charge an engine (Super and Twin Turbo) but say good bye to your fuel mileage. Performance wise, it is very effective... but without diesel, gasoline won't see any advantages other than high output and a nearly flat curve.

Maybe bypass the Supercharger at a higher RPM when the Turbos are in full spool. Using the Supercharger to spool the Turbos, eliminating any lag the Turbos have and relieving the S/C at higher RPM for cooling... but who would attempt to engineer that monster... With 8:1 compression pistons, an extra 200+ lbs, two separate heat exchangers and a whine and hiss... might not be worth it but it would be neat to see on a gas engine.

either way, good info on the S/C bypass... something I can look into tonight.

I believe KB integrates their by-pass valve into a sort of "valet"-type mode, so you can manually control the boost so the undesirables who might have access to the car won't have full access to the power. I don't know about the Whipple and I don't know if Maggies feature a manual-type feature either.
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Old 01-11-2011, 04:46 PM   #123
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I think they will. CTS-V is catered to the more affluent crowd who'd like as much luxury with their performance car as much as they want the actual performance. I completely believe they are for two different markets and feel there is a distinguishable difference.
I have to respectfully disagree. I own a 1st Gen CTS-V, and have been involved with and around the V community for the last 6 years (since my car was new in 2004), and the truth of the matter is that a large portion of 2nd Gen CTS-V owners are guys who have simply stepped up from the 1st Gen. Every V owner that I know, or have had dealings with, values performance above all else while having a car that is infinitely more usable than a pure 2 seater, like a Corvette.

If the fellas only wanted luxury with a little performance sprinkled in, they would simply by a CTS (same amount of luxury, less performance than the V-series). Nope, they want the top of the line, American, ultra-high performance luxury sedan. The fastest American sedan, and the second fastest production sedan in the world (second only to the Porsche Panamera, I believe).

I think GM won't let the Z/28 dominate the V, because if it did, then nobody would ever want to buy the CTS-V Coupe, which would only be differentiated from the Z/28 by different sheet metal, a nicer interior, and inferior performance numbers (I know there will obviously be a host of other differences, but to just break it down to the basics that a lay person would see).

There aren't very many enthusiasts out there who would be willing to pay the extra $13K for more luxury only, with no other differentiating factors over other GM products.

P.S. If you aren't sure about how serious GM and Cadillac are about top shelf performance for it's V-series cars, check out www.world-challenge.com and take a gander at the new CTS-V Coupe Racecar. It is beautiful, and will be a class dominator. I don't see GM and Chevrolet officially factory sponsoring and/or campaigning Camaros.

Lastly, I again have to ask the question, What do you think would be GM's motivation to add 40+ HP to the LSA's power rating...because a bunch of bench racers "think" that the new Z/28 is going to "need" that extra power to safely whoop the piss out of the GT500? There are videos and magazine articles out there that have already immortalized the fact that the current CTS-V Coupe can beat the GT500 in a variety of situations. A Camaro Z/28 that has very similar specs to the V (meaning exact same HP rating, among other things), but weighs 200-250 lbs less, will absolutely beat the GT500 in every situation -- and that isn't opinion, that is physics, pure and simple.
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Old 01-11-2011, 04:51 PM   #124
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If the z28 is a better performer than the V (which I think it will be), I do not think that will take sales away from cadillac. One is a sports car and one is a luxury car... regardless of the power.
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Old 01-11-2011, 05:07 PM   #125
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If the z28 is a better performer than the V (which I think it will be), I do not think that will take sales away from cadillac. One is a sports car and one is a luxury car... regardless of the power.
I agree with you for the most part. And I even believe that for sure the Z/28 will outperform the V in every measurable performance test, but what I am saying is a lot of people only see HP numbers and other marketing stuff when deciding which car to buy.

If you are someone who can afford a $50K Camaro (which will be a toy for most), then you can also probably afford a V, and you could very well cross-shop the two models. If you look at the spec sheet and see 590 HP/ $50K, and then look at the other spec sheet and see 556 HP/ $63K, I can pretty much tell you what choice most people are going to make (this would be a bad business decision for GM, as they would have a ton of CTS-Vs gathering dust on car lots across the U.S.). That is why I believe the HP ratings will be almost the same between the two models (+/- 10 HP), but the Z/28 will slightly edge out the V on all the performance metrics.
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