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View Poll Results: Your guess for the Z28 LSA HP rating
Less than 556 HP 95 13.63%
556 HP 159 22.81%
More than 556 HP 386 55.38%
We don't even know if the LSA is going to be in the Z28! Stupid question! 57 8.18%
Voters: 697. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 01-08-2011, 02:59 AM   #103
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Old 01-08-2011, 07:57 AM   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thePill View Post
In my opinion, the Z28 will stick with the 556hp rating. GM doesn't have to fear the GT500, the 2012 MY has been finalized so no last minute upgrades will come from Ford. That being said, the '12 GT500 will have been released and sold out before the Z28 sees a dealership. If GM were to rate it higher and lets say Motor Trend compares the two to be dead even, it would make GM look bad. At 556hp, if it wins, it looks really good, if it ties, it looks good.. if it loses, the blame can go to weight and only having a 6hp advantage (torque is always overlooked).

Will the Z28 eat Corvette sales?.... What Corvette sales? and I hardly think that a buyer set on a Grand Sport is gonna pitch out extra cash for something he doesn't want... Z06/ZR1 people are Z06/ZR1 people.... they care nothing for Camaros...

I honestly believe that GM might be benchmarking the Z28 to the wrong Mustang, by the time the Z28 is available, the GT500 will be done, the 5.4 will be gone... and Shelby will be out again... Since the 2012 GT500 is being built right now, MY13s top model will be ready for Jan 2012 and since it looks like the Z28 will be out fall/winter 2011, with the GT500s gone for over 8 months and a new model in route in 4... victory might go the way of tooting their own horn.. if only for a brief time (see below)





Yeah, the 2013 SVT Cobra should sport the Twin Turbo 5.0, Turbo's are much better for extended uses such as road circuits. Superchargers get heat soaked after a few laps and horsepower decreases. Twin Turbos also complement the TiVCT way better so I can see SVT answering back with the "Road Runner" 5.0.

Here is a prototype TT 5.0 called EU-01, a collaboration between multiple companies.. They strap it to a dyno at 4:35, it made 552hp and 576tq.... at the wheels...


If gm is to test against a car that doesn't exist yet then how can they bench mark something that isn't out?

GM is testing against what's out and improving beyond that. They should have the answer for current production, and wiggle room for any answer ford has to offer. keyword there is should.
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We do not want to use the Z28 moniker on a car that does not deserve this hallowed name.
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Old 01-08-2011, 11:59 AM   #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boxmonkeyracing View Post
If gm is to test against a car that doesn't exist yet then how can they bench mark something that isn't out?

GM is testing against what's out and improving beyond that. They should have the answer for current production, and wiggle room for any answer ford has to offer. keyword there is should.
Bench marking the Z28 on the current (or in this case both 2011 and 2012) GT500 will set the Z28s mark at or very close to the advertised 556hp. The '12 GT500 will be on dealer lots in a few weeks and upgrades, other then a few cosmetic options are available over last year. If the Z28 starts production in the fall, the GT500 will be an old product and the Z28 will have been bench marked to an 8 month old unit.

Doing so, any victory could come as only a whisper in most eyes as did the '11 GTs victory over the '10 SS. I'm almost positive GM knows Ford intended to twin turbo the 5.0. It was even made quite public that the "Road Runner" was in the works, but Fords methods of product deception is just as comical, if not more than GMs.

Ford went public with the TT 5.0 in October 2009 and in December '09 stated that "There will be no TT 5.0 for the GT500" and "There simply isn't enough room under the hood for TTs"... As I said before, Ford wasn't lying... the truth changed... There will not be a GT500 in production to receive the TT 5.0 and the TTs used on the 5.0 does not fit under the hood, it fits in the two identical notches on each side of the transmission Ford developed the GT with for some reason... Some people thought it was just clear space to service the transmission easier.

Its an ideal placement of a Twin Turbo kit, it lowers the extra weight center and moves that weight mid vehicle. It also places the twin turbos directly in line with the dual exhaust. TT also produces power at a higher RPM allowing the Cobra to launch from a dig without blowing the tires off of 285s. A S/C creates a broad low end torque curve and puts power to the ground immediately where a TT spools slowly... It will launch like a GT but pull like a GT500. Up high though, a S/C is garbage and after a few laps, it becomes a disadvantage rather than a modifier. Europeans use turbos in road racing with great results.



All that I am saying is, if you plan on building a Superbowl team or training a prize fighter, do not move your Z28 chess piece according to the GT500s build and game plan last year...

Last edited by thePill; 01-08-2011 at 12:16 PM.
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Old 01-08-2011, 03:36 PM   #106
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575 Horsepower

Doubt they will go 600 horse on this build. But they might not certify the HP right off, just like what happened with the V6. Politics and timing are everything. With the way gas prices are going... hmmm. That alone could hammer all sales. The gas companies are gonna put a death nail in any economic recovery as their greed overtakes logic.
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Old 01-08-2011, 03:42 PM   #107
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Doubt they will go 600 horse on this build. But they might not certify the HP right off, just like what happened with the V6. Politics and timing are everything. With the way gas prices are going... hmmm. That alone could hammer all sales. The gas companies are gonna put a death nail in any economic recovery as their greed overtakes logic.
Its the other way around actually, economic recovery is fueling the rise in gas prices.
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Old 01-08-2011, 04:45 PM   #108
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I think we'll see it in the 580-600hp range. Some people make some good points about comparing it to the CTS-V but they over look a lot of things as well. Like even if the Camaro has the same horsepower as the CTS-V its going to be a lighter car because the CTS-V is a luxury car and the Camaro is a performance car. You've got to remember that people going to buy the CTS-V (like the Corvette) are a different breed of buyers looking for a different kind of machine, they want performance and world-class luxury, Camaro buyers want a balls-out American performance legend, hell most of the reason they'll buy it is for the namesake alone. I never bought into the "higher performance in a lower car will kill the prices of lower performance in a higher car" idea. Plus GM knows that the Z28 is going to pull people to the showroom floor a LOT more than the CTS-V will, whether the buyer goes home with a Z28 or a Malibu that car will bring the customer in and GM isnt going to neglect it for some stupid sibling rivalry like that.

And all that being said i do believe it will be the LSA in the Camaro, because GM and everyone else has all but come flat out and said it, just stating what engine it is wont give everything away to the competition. Plus at this point everyone is so hyped about the LSA that GM feels it would be letting the car's fanbase down if it did anything other than the LSA. I personally am disappointed in this cause id much rather see an N/A Z28, id rather see the LS7 or a factory version of the LSX454 in it, im more of a fan of camshaft thump than supercharger whine, plus a headline like "N/A Z28 Beats Out Supercharged Shelby" would be more than satisfying to me haha. But alas, im not making the car and my oppinion doesnt really matter, even though there's equal N/A motors and better supercharged motors its still 98% sure going to be the LSA.
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Old 01-08-2011, 04:57 PM   #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thePill View Post
Bench marking the Z28 on the current (or in this case both 2011 and 2012) GT500 will set the Z28s mark at or very close to the advertised 556hp. The '12 GT500 will be on dealer lots in a few weeks and upgrades, other then a few cosmetic options are available over last year. If the Z28 starts production in the fall, the GT500 will be an old product and the Z28 will have been bench marked to an 8 month old unit.

Doing so, any victory could come as only a whisper in most eyes as did the '11 GTs victory over the '10 SS. I'm almost positive GM knows Ford intended to twin turbo the 5.0. It was even made quite public that the "Road Runner" was in the works, but Fords methods of product deception is just as comical, if not more than GMs.

Ford went public with the TT 5.0 in October 2009 and in December '09 stated that "There will be no TT 5.0 for the GT500" and "There simply isn't enough room under the hood for TTs"... As I said before, Ford wasn't lying... the truth changed... There will not be a GT500 in production to receive the TT 5.0 and the TTs used on the 5.0 does not fit under the hood, it fits in the two identical notches on each side of the transmission Ford developed the GT with for some reason... Some people thought it was just clear space to service the transmission easier.

Its an ideal placement of a Twin Turbo kit, it lowers the extra weight center and moves that weight mid vehicle. It also places the twin turbos directly in line with the dual exhaust. TT also produces power at a higher RPM allowing the Cobra to launch from a dig without blowing the tires off of 285s. A S/C creates a broad low end torque curve and puts power to the ground immediately where a TT spools slowly... It will launch like a GT but pull like a GT500. Up high though, a S/C is garbage and after a few laps, it becomes a disadvantage rather than a modifier. Europeans use turbos in road racing with great results.



All that I am saying is, if you plan on building a Superbowl team or training a prize fighter, do not move your Z28 chess piece according to the GT500s build and game plan last year...

I think most muscle car guys preffer a broad torque range over high spooling turbos. Its all in the launch, if it doesnt snap your neck off the line and make all kinds of evil noises doing so then i dont want to buy it. And evil noises dont consist of wind-tunnel testing LOL. I dont really care about the top-end of my car because 99.9% of the time its not gonna be on a track, its gonna be launching from a stop light, and by the time i hit 80mph i'll be at another stop light, so i want to be able to smash that GT from light to light, not match it.
Besides isnt there already a TT Taurus? Does it use the same transmission? That might be why it was designed like that, just for the Taurus with no intention of using TT in a Mustang.
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Old 01-08-2011, 05:09 PM   #110
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More then 556bhp. Im guessing it wont get the CTS-V 1900 series S/C and will be the larger 2300. 590hp!?!?
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Old 01-08-2011, 05:13 PM   #111
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Picture of the motor in the test car looks closer to the LS-9 intercooler than the LSA despite its label.
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Old 01-08-2011, 09:25 PM   #112
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I will guess the 2012 Z/28 will be 500-525hp(just a thought)..And if the 2012 Z/28 is going to be over 575hp I am going to cringe at what GM/Chevy will be asking price wise for this ride..I am going out on a limb and say it will be priced around the 2011 CTS-V.. I can bet GM knows that the 2012 Z/28 will be in demand, so I'm sure prices will reflect it..I just hate to see a Camaro going to be priced out of range of most folks,boo-hoo...
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Old 01-08-2011, 09:48 PM   #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mr02Z/28 View Post
I will guess the 2012 Z/28 will be 500-525hp(just a thought)..And if the 2012 Z/28 is going to be over 575hp I am going to cringe at what GM/Chevy will be asking price wise for this ride..I am going out on a limb and say it will be priced around the 2011 CTS-V.. I can bet GM knows that the 2012 Z/28 will be in demand, so I'm sure prices will reflect it..I just hate to see a Camaro going to be priced out of range of most folks,boo-hoo...
1. The Z/28s benchmark is the GT500, so it is going to need more than 550 hp to get the same numbers the GT500 does due to the Camaros weight disadvantage.

2. There is no way that the Z/28 will be priced the same as a CTS-V. You are not just paying for the engine in a V, you are also paying for a luxury car with luxury amenities.

I say the Camaro will have around 575 hp and will have a starting price of $52,995.
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Old 01-08-2011, 11:02 PM   #114
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Originally Posted by SS-screamer View Post
Picture of the motor in the test car looks closer to the LS-9 intercooler than the LSA despite its label.

It is an LSA in the test car with a redesigned intercooler lid to fit under the Camaro's cowl. Note the angle of the throttle body in relation to the LS9.
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Old 01-09-2011, 12:14 AM   #115
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There is a ton of good stuff to search in here...This what it took "Uncle Robin" Lawrence to run 10's

• GMPP CTS-V LSA Crate engine
• Kooks headers and full exhaust system
• Lunati cam
• GMPP CNC cylinder heads
• Performance Transmissions 4L80E transmission
• ProTorque converter with 4000 RPM stall
• Lingenfelter pulley system, 63-pound injectors, fuel pump, blower coupler, and intercooler
• ATI balancer with 10% overdrive
• Bosch intercooler pump
• 100% stock rearend
• One piece Jerry Bickel-built driveshaft
• Stock starter
• Abaco Mass air meter
• Mickey Thompson 305/45/18 ET Drag Radial tires
• VP 100 unleaded fuel
• Tuned with HP Tuners tuning software
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Old 01-09-2011, 02:08 AM   #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vega View Post
I think most muscle car guys preffer a broad torque range over high spooling turbos. Its all in the launch, if it doesnt snap your neck off the line and make all kinds of evil noises doing so then i dont want to buy it. And evil noises dont consist of wind-tunnel testing LOL. I dont really care about the top-end of my car because 99.9% of the time its not gonna be on a track, its gonna be launching from a stop light, and by the time i hit 80mph i'll be at another stop light, so i want to be able to smash that GT from light to light, not match it.
Besides isnt there already a TT Taurus? Does it use the same transmission? That might be why it was designed like that, just for the Taurus with no intention of using TT in a Mustang.
Both Twin Turbos and Superchargers create more peak HP/TQ than anything, traditionally, S/Cs peak much lower than Turbos. From idle to 4500rpm S/Cs have a nice HP curve, Turbos pick up at 3500 all the way to the engines ceiling. When MPGs are concerned, as long as you operate a Turbo under the spool, its almost like driving a regular V8 (what some people call turbo lag) and fuel mileage will reflect that kind of driving. S/Cs are constantly pulling, even at idle.. This is also why S/Cs become heat soaked quickly and lose power after extended use. For drag racing, a cool down is required between races to maximize power.

In 3-4 years, I'm not sure either of these cars will be labeled "Muscle Cars" or "Pony Cars". The term "Sports Coupe" is known the world over and if either of these companies intend on selling a performance vehicle in other parts of the world.. They will ditch that stereotype..

The SHO Taurus Twin Turbo 3.5l V6 has nothing in common with the 5.0 V8. Seeing a Twin Turbo on a V6 tells me that a TT version of a I4 and V8 are coming soon. With the 20% better MPG and 15% lower emissions a Single/Twin Turbo produces with Direct Injection makes it an automatic winner... add in the lower weight, better weight distribution at the same cost....

Besides, who wants a 20th Anniversary SVT Cobra that whines when you can give it Turbos and make it hiss?
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Old 01-10-2011, 05:22 PM   #117
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I can see around 590hp in the z28... Can't have as much or more than the ZR1 but its gotta have more than the CTS-V
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Old 01-10-2011, 10:38 PM   #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TaylorRyanSS View Post
2. There is no way that the Z/28 will be priced the same as a CTS-V. You are not just paying for the engine in a V, you are also paying for a luxury car with luxury amenities.

I say the Camaro will have around 575 hp and will have a starting price of $52,995.
Except I see the hp higher, and the price lower.....At 53k you're well-withing optioned-Corvette territory...

Quote:
Originally Posted by thePill View Post
Both Twin Turbos and Superchargers create more peak HP/TQ than anything, traditionally, S/Cs peak much lower than Turbos. From idle to 4500rpm S/Cs have a nice HP curve, Turbos pick up at 3500 all the way to the engines ceiling. When MPGs are concerned, as long as you operate a Turbo under the spool, its almost like driving a regular V8 (what some people call turbo lag) and fuel mileage will reflect that kind of driving. S/Cs are constantly pulling, even at idle..
That's not quite accurate anymore, especially not with the twin-screw/hybrid roots superchargers companies are selling. Most come with a bypass valve nearly 'detaching' the unit from the engine. You'd use up more hp by turning on your lights at idle. I know at least Magnuson (who uses the same TVS rotors as GM) claims their units pull less than 1/3 hp from idle to part-throttle 2000 rpms.

And they keep boosting to redline, just like turbos. But Turbochargers, just by their nature will almost always produce more torque pound for pound of pressure compared to superchargers.
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Old 01-10-2011, 10:58 PM   #119
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Except I see the hp higher, and the price lower.....At 53k you're well-withing optioned-Corvette territory...
I do not see it being any lower than 50K. The GT500 starts just under 49K. And I do not see them putting over 600 hp, but I guess we shall see soon
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