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View Poll Results: Your guess for the Z28 LSA HP rating
Less than 556 HP 95 13.63%
556 HP 159 22.81%
More than 556 HP 386 55.38%
We don't even know if the LSA is going to be in the Z28! Stupid question! 57 8.18%
Voters: 697. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 01-11-2011, 11:08 AM   #120
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I can see around 590hp in the z28... Can't have as much or more than the ZR1 but its gotta have more than the CTS-V
Why...that doesn't make any sense at all...You seriously think GM is going to sell a Camaro for around $50K that has 590 HP, compared to a CTS-V for around $63K that only has 556 HP...come on, man.

Another thing, the fricking CTS-V Coupe already beats the GT500 in straightline acceleration tests and has faster lap times around certain tracks (see Road & Track this month). If the Caddy can do that with 4238 lbs, then the Camaro Z/28 (with great tires, improved suspension, etc.) ought to be able to do that with its relatively svelt sub 4000 lbs.

P.S. I know it's not only about HP, but even though the CTS-V commands a higher price tag because of its luxury amenities (and VASTLY superior interior), people will not really be happy to pay $13K more for a slower car. Cadillac is GM's halo brand, and there needs to be a multitude of reasons to entice people to spend tens of thousands of dollars more for a Cadillac, over a similar Chevrolet (having the Caddy be the clear loser in the performance dept. is most definitely not the way to do that).
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Old 01-11-2011, 12:37 PM   #121
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Except I see the hp higher, and the price lower.....At 53k you're well-withing optioned-Corvette territory...


That's not quite accurate anymore, especially not with the twin-screw/hybrid roots superchargers companies are selling. Most come with a bypass valve nearly 'detaching' the unit from the engine. You'd use up more hp by turning on your lights at idle. I know at least Magnuson (who uses the same TVS rotors as GM) claims their units pull less than 1/3 hp from idle to part-throttle 2000 rpms.

And they keep boosting to redline, just like turbos. But Turbochargers, just by their nature will almost always produce more torque pound for pound of pressure compared to superchargers.
I also see superchargers with advanced cooling configurations to combat heat soak for road duty, or at least making an effort to do so. Dual brick intercoolers and a heat extracting hood really help, especially at moderate to high speeds.

I guess the best way to duplicate the Turbo's emissions and MPG is to engineer an S/C to do exactly what you explained above. Just as long as it doesn't affect the beautiful HP/TQ low end curve, that is something a Turbo cannot duplicate from the S/C.

They could take a page from the diesel's book and Twin Charge an engine (Super and Twin Turbo) but say good bye to your fuel mileage. Performance wise, it is very effective... but without diesel, gasoline won't see any advantages other than high output and a nearly flat curve.

Maybe bypass the Supercharger at a higher RPM when the Turbos are in full spool. Using the Supercharger to spool the Turbos, eliminating any lag the Turbos have and relieving the S/C at higher RPM for cooling... but who would attempt to engineer that monster... With 8:1 compression pistons, an extra 200+ lbs, two separate heat exchangers and a whine and hiss... might not be worth it but it would be neat to see on a gas engine.

either way, good info on the S/C bypass... something I can look into tonight.
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Old 01-11-2011, 01:27 PM   #122
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Why...that doesn't make any sense at all...You seriously think GM is going to sell a Camaro for around $50K that has 590 HP, compared to a CTS-V for around $63K that only has 556 HP...come on, man.

Another thing, the fricking CTS-V Coupe already beats the GT500 in straightline acceleration tests and has faster lap times around certain tracks (see Road & Track this month). If the Caddy can do that with 4238 lbs, then the Camaro Z/28 (with great tires, improved suspension, etc.) ought to be able to do that with its relatively svelt sub 4000 lbs.

P.S. I know it's not only about HP, but even though the CTS-V commands a higher price tag because of its luxury amenities (and VASTLY superior interior), people will not really be happy to pay $13K more for a slower car. Cadillac is GM's halo brand, and there needs to be a multitude of reasons to entice people to spend tens of thousands of dollars more for a Cadillac, over a similar Chevrolet (having the Caddy be the clear loser in the performance dept. is most definitely not the way to do that).
I think they will. CTS-V is catered to the more affluent crowd who'd like as much luxury with their performance car as much as they want the actual performance. I completely believe they are for two different markets and feel there is a distinguishable difference. Personally, I'd walk right be CTS-V for Z28 if I had the money, because that's just how I am. I don't really think GM is going to shoot to steal many sales from competitors - I'm thinking Z28 will be for the CAMARO-guys and gals out there. Of course - I want them to sell as many CAMAROs as they can, so I won't be disappointed if they shoot for as many people as possible.

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Originally Posted by thePill View Post
I also see superchargers with advanced cooling configurations to combat heat soak for road duty, or at least making an effort to do so. Dual brick intercoolers and a heat extracting hood really help, especially at moderate to high speeds.

I guess the best way to duplicate the Turbo's emissions and MPG is to engineer an S/C to do exactly what you explained above. Just as long as it doesn't affect the beautiful HP/TQ low end curve, that is something a Turbo cannot duplicate from the S/C.

They could take a page from the diesel's book and Twin Charge an engine (Super and Twin Turbo) but say good bye to your fuel mileage. Performance wise, it is very effective... but without diesel, gasoline won't see any advantages other than high output and a nearly flat curve.

Maybe bypass the Supercharger at a higher RPM when the Turbos are in full spool. Using the Supercharger to spool the Turbos, eliminating any lag the Turbos have and relieving the S/C at higher RPM for cooling... but who would attempt to engineer that monster... With 8:1 compression pistons, an extra 200+ lbs, two separate heat exchangers and a whine and hiss... might not be worth it but it would be neat to see on a gas engine.

either way, good info on the S/C bypass... something I can look into tonight.

I believe KB integrates their by-pass valve into a sort of "valet"-type mode, so you can manually control the boost so the undesirables who might have access to the car won't have full access to the power. I don't know about the Whipple and I don't know if Maggies feature a manual-type feature either.
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Old 01-11-2011, 05:46 PM   #123
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I think they will. CTS-V is catered to the more affluent crowd who'd like as much luxury with their performance car as much as they want the actual performance. I completely believe they are for two different markets and feel there is a distinguishable difference.
I have to respectfully disagree. I own a 1st Gen CTS-V, and have been involved with and around the V community for the last 6 years (since my car was new in 2004), and the truth of the matter is that a large portion of 2nd Gen CTS-V owners are guys who have simply stepped up from the 1st Gen. Every V owner that I know, or have had dealings with, values performance above all else while having a car that is infinitely more usable than a pure 2 seater, like a Corvette.

If the fellas only wanted luxury with a little performance sprinkled in, they would simply by a CTS (same amount of luxury, less performance than the V-series). Nope, they want the top of the line, American, ultra-high performance luxury sedan. The fastest American sedan, and the second fastest production sedan in the world (second only to the Porsche Panamera, I believe).

I think GM won't let the Z/28 dominate the V, because if it did, then nobody would ever want to buy the CTS-V Coupe, which would only be differentiated from the Z/28 by different sheet metal, a nicer interior, and inferior performance numbers (I know there will obviously be a host of other differences, but to just break it down to the basics that a lay person would see).

There aren't very many enthusiasts out there who would be willing to pay the extra $13K for more luxury only, with no other differentiating factors over other GM products.

P.S. If you aren't sure about how serious GM and Cadillac are about top shelf performance for it's V-series cars, check out www.world-challenge.com and take a gander at the new CTS-V Coupe Racecar. It is beautiful, and will be a class dominator. I don't see GM and Chevrolet officially factory sponsoring and/or campaigning Camaros.

Lastly, I again have to ask the question, What do you think would be GM's motivation to add 40+ HP to the LSA's power rating...because a bunch of bench racers "think" that the new Z/28 is going to "need" that extra power to safely whoop the piss out of the GT500? There are videos and magazine articles out there that have already immortalized the fact that the current CTS-V Coupe can beat the GT500 in a variety of situations. A Camaro Z/28 that has very similar specs to the V (meaning exact same HP rating, among other things), but weighs 200-250 lbs less, will absolutely beat the GT500 in every situation -- and that isn't opinion, that is physics, pure and simple.
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Old 01-11-2011, 05:51 PM   #124
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If the z28 is a better performer than the V (which I think it will be), I do not think that will take sales away from cadillac. One is a sports car and one is a luxury car... regardless of the power.
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Old 01-11-2011, 06:07 PM   #125
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If the z28 is a better performer than the V (which I think it will be), I do not think that will take sales away from cadillac. One is a sports car and one is a luxury car... regardless of the power.
I agree with you for the most part. And I even believe that for sure the Z/28 will outperform the V in every measurable performance test, but what I am saying is a lot of people only see HP numbers and other marketing stuff when deciding which car to buy.

If you are someone who can afford a $50K Camaro (which will be a toy for most), then you can also probably afford a V, and you could very well cross-shop the two models. If you look at the spec sheet and see 590 HP/ $50K, and then look at the other spec sheet and see 556 HP/ $63K, I can pretty much tell you what choice most people are going to make (this would be a bad business decision for GM, as they would have a ton of CTS-Vs gathering dust on car lots across the U.S.). That is why I believe the HP ratings will be almost the same between the two models (+/- 10 HP), but the Z/28 will slightly edge out the V on all the performance metrics.
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Old 01-11-2011, 06:34 PM   #126
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Lastly, I again have to ask the question, What do you think would be GM's motivation to add 40+ HP to the LSA's power rating...because a bunch of bench racers "think" that the new Z/28 is going to "need" that extra power to safely whoop the piss out of the GT500? There are videos and magazine articles out there that have already immortalized the fact that the current CTS-V Coupe can beat the GT500 in a variety of situations. A Camaro Z/28 that has very similar specs to the V (meaning exact same HP rating, among other things), but weighs 200-250 lbs less, will absolutely beat the GT500 in every situation -- and that isn't opinion, that is physics, pure and simple.
If GM only wanted to beat the Mustang when the 2010 Camaro came out, the base engine would probably have been the non-DI 3.6L and the SS would have gotten the L76. They'd beat their respective Mustangs, by a little, and everyone would probably be happy ... until the 2011 Mustangs came out that is. Trying to simply be competitive with the current cars led to complacency and mediocrity. No, mood is different now. Benchmark where your competition is right now, and expect that they'll step it up in a couple years. Then aim to compete with the updated models. Worst case scenario, you'll be a little behind (after having a big lead for a year or two). Or better yet, you'll catch the other guy with his pants down and be way ahead in the game.

And to think that Ford isn't going to work on the GT500 would be foolish. In 2009 it had 500 hp. In 2010 it was upped to 540. For 2011 it was bumped another 10 hp, but the car also lost a lot of weight by switching from an iron block to aluminum. And all that was without having a real competitor on the market. I can't imagine that they'll stop there once the Z28 hits the streets.

In the end, it becomes a question of whats more important to GM: making sure the 2013 GT500 won't embarrass them, or worrying about the impact the Z28 has on CTS-V (or Corvette) sales?
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Old 01-11-2011, 06:46 PM   #127
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I have to respectfully disagree. I own a 1st Gen CTS-V, and have been involved with and around the V community for the last 6 years (since my car was new in 2004), and the truth of the matter is that a large portion of 2nd Gen CTS-V owners are guys who have simply stepped up from the 1st Gen. Every V owner that I know, or have had dealings with, values performance above all else while having a car that is infinitely more usable than a pure 2 seater, like a Corvette.

We'll have to respectfully agree to disagree

If the fellas only wanted luxury with a little performance sprinkled in, they would simply by a CTS (same amount of luxury, less performance than the V-series). Nope, they want the top of the line, American, ultra-high performance luxury sedan. The fastest American sedan, and the second fastest production sedan in the world (second only to the Porsche Panamera, I believe).

I think GM won't let the Z/28 dominate the V, because if it did, then nobody would ever want to buy the CTS-V Coupe, which would only be differentiated from the Z/28 by different sheet metal, a nicer interior, and inferior performance numbers (I know there will obviously be a host of other differences, but to just break it down to the basics that a lay person would see).

Z28 has been around a LOT longer than CTS-V has, and that's one of the reasons why I think it will have a "higher priority", if you will. I just think since it's been established already, and reaches more people. I'm thinking from a CAMARO owners perspective, which I don't know that I think you are. I don't care for all the foofaraw and amenities that come in the luxury cars. I know that I would want CAMARO, on the whole, to be competitive in the market place, but I feel like stepping from Z28 to CTS-V is moving from middle-class (if you will) to upper class. I don't see there being much cross-shopping for serious CAMARO peeople, and that's who I think Z28 will appeal to, IMVHO.

There aren't very many enthusiasts out there who would be willing to pay the extra $13K for more luxury only, with no other differentiating factors over other GM products.

P.S. If you aren't sure about how serious GM and Cadillac are about top shelf performance for it's V-series cars, check out www.world-challenge.com and take a gander at the new CTS-V Coupe Racecar. It is beautiful, and will be a class dominator. I don't see GM and Chevrolet officially factory sponsoring and/or campaigning Camaros.

Lastly, I again have to ask the question, What do you think would be GM's motivation to add 40+ HP to the LSA's power rating...because a bunch of bench racers "think" that the new Z/28 is going to "need" that extra power to safely whoop the piss out of the GT500? There are videos and magazine articles out there that have already immortalized the fact that the current CTS-V Coupe can beat the GT500 in a variety of situations. A Camaro Z/28 that has very similar specs to the V (meaning exact same HP rating, among other things), but weighs 200-250 lbs less, will absolutely beat the GT500 in every situation -- and that isn't opinion, that is physics, pure and simple.
I give magazine reviews, for the most part, are about as worthless as a poopie-flavored lollipop. Most of the time, the only things they're good for are pictures and learning a lot of new big words I don't know the meaning of. There are a select few reviewers I'd give any credit to, for an honest and unbiased opinion on a given car, and even less for reviewers who actually even know how to drive a car. When I see a review that says no powershifting, and prep'd surface, nor other similar details that a car enthusiast might appreciate prefacing an article, I'm immediately turned off. If you ask me, if we're going to talk acceleration, there's really one driver who I always look to, Mr. Evan Smith. Last I read, he's at a Rustang rag, and still does some stuff for HR and PHR, but I remember him running the fastest times in 4th Gens. When I see runs in CTS-V by him, I'll take it for what it's worth. I know he's run GT500s, but can't find reviews at this time because I wasted too much trying to find anything good for CTS-Vs. I could swear I've seen bottom 12s, and I know I've heard GT500s drop nearly in the high-mid-11s. I've not seen anything close for CTS-V, but I'm sure I could've missed. Having said that, I still don't thing a car that is 10-horse' less and 300-some-odd pounds less is slower than the other car. I know CTS-V will put the power down better, but that's the only advantage I give CTS-V, in terms of acceleration. If I see otherwise, I will respectfully withdraw and reconsider

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Old 01-11-2011, 08:11 PM   #128
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P.S. If you aren't sure about how serious GM and Cadillac are about top shelf performance for it's V-series cars, check out www.world-challenge.com and take a gander at the new CTS-V Coupe Racecar. It is beautiful, and will be a class dominator. I don't see GM and Chevrolet officially factory sponsoring and/or campaigning Camaros.
You're right, but they've got a Corvette in LeMans.

Cadillac is being positioned to compete head-on with BMW and friends. All (or most) of them compete in some sort of performance driving event. But they are all known for being luxury vehicles FIRST, and performance vehicles second.

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Lastly, I again have to ask the question, What do you think would be GM's motivation to add 40+ HP to the LSA's power rating...
They may not have very much choice. An engine in the Camaro is simply a more efficient breather than in a Cadillac. NOT 40hp more efficient....I'm of the 560-580 mind. Plus, you have to figure that if it's taken this long to engineer a Z28 they've done a little bit more than copy/paste a CTS-V...


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If you are someone who can afford a $50K Camaro (which will be a toy for most), then you can also probably afford a V, and you could very well cross-shop the two models.[/B]
I've got to disagree entirely...Many Corvette buyers, for instance, are right on the cusp of being able to afford the car or not. An extra $14k (almost 30% increase in price) is completely out of the question. This is a major reason for the car's sales slump recently, actually...

I expect the Z28 buyers will be in that same bracket, for better or worse.

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[B]If you look at the spec sheet and see 590 HP/ $50K, and then look at the other spec sheet and see 556 HP/ $63K, I can pretty much tell you what choice most people are going to make (this would be a bad business decision for GM, as they would have a ton of CTS-Vs gathering dust on car lots across the U.S.).
This assumes three things -- the first being that customers are likely to cross-shop the CTS-V and the Camaro. The second being that the customer is only interested in performance. And the third being that the customer, after
sitting in both the Camaro and the CTS-V (being able to afford both) wouldn't value the superior quality/materials/features of the Cadillac.

I just don't think that's all going to line up in the real-world. Most CTS-V buyers may be 'only' interested in performance...but I find it incredibly hard to believe that any one of them would rather drive a 'lowly' Chevy...
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Old 01-11-2011, 09:06 PM   #129
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This assumes three things -- the first being that customers are likely to cross-shop the CTS-V and the Camaro. The second being that the customer is only interested in performance. And the third being that the customer, after
sitting in both the Camaro and the CTS-V (being able to afford both) wouldn't value the superior quality/materials/features of the Cadillac.
Also if the engine for the Z28 is some variant on the LSA, and not just a better breathing LSA, it could easily be used in the CTS-V.
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Old 01-11-2011, 09:12 PM   #130
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Also if the engine for the Z28 is some variant on the LSA, and not just a better breathing LSA, it could easily be used in the CTS-V.
Very true....It's a plausible thought given the amount of time the Z has been in development.
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Old 01-12-2011, 10:18 AM   #131
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Also if the engine for the Z28 is some variant on the LSA, and not just a better breathing LSA, it could easily be used in the CTS-V.
I've been thinking all along that ZR1 and CTS-V are due very soon for a bump in power, so it may not even be a problem Z28 possibly develops more power than CTS-V right now. If CTS-V gets a boost, that'll probably put it pretty close to 600 horse', which is right about where I've been thinking Z28 is going to be. 670 horse' ZR1, 590 horse' CTS-V, and 580-600 horse' Z28.

Who'd a really thought, at the end of the 4th Gen, that it'd be somewhat reasonable to even think it would be even somewhat reasonable to speculate a 500+ horse' CAMARO?... These are some great times, friend
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Old 01-12-2011, 05:45 PM   #132
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I've been thinking all along that ZR1 and CTS-V are due very soon for a bump in power, so it may not even be a problem Z28 possibly develops more power than CTS-V right now. If CTS-V gets a boost, that'll probably put it pretty close to 600 horse', which is right about where I've been thinking Z28 is going to be. 670 horse' ZR1, 590 horse' CTS-V, and 580-600 horse' Z28.
I totally agree that the others are due for a bump in hp to give the Z/28 some hp breathing room with the ZR1, which it needs to help compensate for due to the weight its carry.
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Old 01-12-2011, 05:57 PM   #133
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585 hp from slp is able to do 0-60 in 3.6 and 1/4 in 11.5@122 by motorweek's testers with pilot ps2 tires and short throw shifter......so maybe 585 might be pretty close to what GM will offer in the Z/28. This is some of the best times that I have seen with a tuner camaro by any online magazine or tester yet.

Video posted @ this thread:
http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=123899
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Old 01-12-2011, 05:58 PM   #134
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Originally Posted by tweeter81 View Post
GM is NOT going to give the new Z/28 more substantially power than the CTS-V for $12,000 less. It's just not going to happen.

People need to use the brains God gave them and look into past performance cars to find the answer to this question. The new engine is most likely going to be the LSA, and it will only make more power than the 556 HP the CTS-V has, if the intake and exhaust are slightly more free-flowing. I would guess a 10 HP bump to approximately 566 HP.

GM has absolutely no reason to push the limits of the motor more than they already have (and for less money, even).

This new Z/28 doesn't need 600 or 800 HP to be competitive and beat the GT500 performance numbers. It just needs high quality, wide, and sticky tires (read: not Goodyear F1s) and a great suspension setup for the roadcourse.
That's what I was thinking also, about 560-570 HP. GM also has to consider not to exceed the HP of the next gen Vette, which I think will be about 600 HP.
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Old 01-12-2011, 09:52 PM   #135
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I just don't think that's all going to line up in the real-world. Most CTS-V buyers may be 'only' interested in performance...but I find it incredibly hard to believe that any one of them would rather drive a 'lowly' Chevy...
While I agree with some of your points, and realize that a lot of what I base my opinion on is tethered to a few key assumptions, I think the real truth (and which vehicle people want/can afford) will fall somewhere in between.

RANT ON--

However, I do have to respond to your comment that I have highlighted above. I am a CTS-V owner (the "lowly" 1st Gen version). I know between 50 and 100+ CTS-V owners that I have personally met over the last 6 years. I have attended track days with some and put together and attended meets with others, and let me tell you, not once have I ever heard anyone say they like the car because it is a "Cadillac" and somehow better than other GM marques. That is a narrow-minded and naive way to look at our particular family of car enthusiasts.

I'm not sure if you, or any of the other posters who have posted recently, have first-hand knowledge of the CTS-V community (or have ever driven a CTS-V even), but you would be very surprised at just how performance-oriented they all are. The V1 guys (myself included) are very much into the performance side of things (I actively open track my car as much as I can), and a huge amount of V2 owners are guys that first owned a V1, and just continued on the same path that the amazing 1st Gen set them on.

I don't talk down to Chevy owners, or BMW owners, or whatever, so I expect not to be generalized as a Cadillac owner either. I could have bought a base Corvette for roughly the same money as I paid for my V1 new back in early '05, but I chose the V because I had just graduated from college and needed a vehicle big enough and comfortable enough (and could still haul ass) to haul everything I would need to live on for a couple of months until my parents could bring the rest to me. My choice was made up at that point. It had absolutely nothing to do with the name brand at that time. But, something I do take pride in now is just how rare and unique my V1 is. I live in a community of 30,000 people and I have never seen another V in my town. That is cool. With a Vette or Camaro, you see them on every corner, they are a dime a dozen, which kinda takes the fun out of it for me. (although I still like them)

RANT OFF---

To get back on topic here, and to speak directly to your point on cross-shopping, I may be in the minority here, but I will be, and am interested in both the V2 and the upcoming Z/28. And I also know that if I test drove both and liked them both more or less equally, but for slightly different reasons maybe, I would buy the one that provided the best value, or "bang for the buck" (which would be the Z if it does have at least 556 HP and is around $50K). By the way, I like good-natured discussions and I mean no disrespect by anything I have posted or will post.
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Old 01-12-2011, 10:16 PM   #136
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By the way, I like good-natured discussions and I mean no disrespect by anything I have posted or will post.
None taken!

And you're right, I don't have much experience with the CTS-V crowd outside of a couple people (one of them a serious Camaro enthusiast) I know who own one and absolutely love it.

I can read the passion you have for the car and the community through your post....which is hard to do on the internet, so take that for what its worth. I'll take your word for it, and I'm glad to now have the perception that most CTS-V owners aren't nose-talkers like the drivers of certain other marques.
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