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Old 03-01-2011, 07:32 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by 2010SSRSM6 View Post
I can't see it being that hard to drop 350-400 pounds off this platform. Go back to 18" rims, put in a lighter/smaller displacement engine, lighter suspension components, remove the back seat, etc.....

The Z06's LS7 weighs in @ 458 pounds, the LS3 is 415 pounds. Both of these engines are dated and the 5.5L is already in use in the Corvette GT2 race car. That is a pretty good indication that it will be hitting the streets in the Corvette. I can't see it being over 350 pounds. That is 1/5 the weight the car needs to loose, and a good chunk off the front end.
Sorry, but 350 to 400 pounds is wayyyyyyy too much. All of the things you listed, including making it a 2 passnger car (cough Corvette, cough, cough) would save maybe 150 pounds.

To get where you would like to go involves light weight and exotic materials. I know this from my work on the Z06 where we got an aluminum structure, carbon fiber fender outers, carbon fiber floor panels, carbon fiber fendes and we saved all of .................drum roll please.................165 pounds. And almost all of my guys work was off set by larger wheels and tires, LS7 with remote oil reservoir and Big Ginormous Brakes.

It's just not feasible to get that much weight out without adding a big, humungous pile of cash. And you know what that translates into on the sticker of a low volume car (no rear seats means ultra low volume as you are really now talking a Corvette) don't you????
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Old 03-02-2011, 07:23 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by Dragoneye View Post
Why don't you suppose the ZL1 will carry over into the 6thgen as the "Top Dog", too?

(I think there's room for both nameplates, btw...)
I guess I should have re-phrased it. I do not think that the ZL1 will continue on to the Alpha chassis with a S/C 6.2 engine. Everything seems to point to a downsizing of engines to meet efficiency and CAFE requirements. If they do continue the ZL1 nameplate it will be with a smaller DI engine that hopefully makes the same power. The current ZL1 will be the last of the "Big Blocks" for quite some time.
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Old 03-02-2011, 10:07 AM   #45
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I guess I should have re-phrased it. I do not think that the ZL1 will continue on to the Alpha chassis with a S/C 6.2 engine. Everything seems to point to a downsizing of engines to meet efficiency and CAFE requirements. If they do continue the ZL1 nameplate it will be with a smaller DI engine that hopefully makes the same power. The current ZL1 will be the last of the "Big Blocks" for quite some time.
I agree this is going to be what happen with the next generation; but why not? If we can get better efficiency from a smaller package while giving the same power - why not? This is exactly why I can't watch the 5th Generation go by without getting one - because I fear this will be the last of the larger V8 engines we'll see. This car has the best balance of character, charisma, performance, and ergonimics of any car I've laid eyes on. I can't imagine a car I'd like as much as this one.

I seriously hope for Z28 to return in a year or two. It'd be nice to see a '13 C7 and have Z28 reintroduced sharing the same Gen V engine; maybe downrated a bit. It's going to need some serious power, but I think it'll do great so long as the chassis is sorted.
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Old 03-02-2011, 10:39 AM   #46
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Sorry, but 350 to 400 pounds is wayyyyyyy too much. All of the things you listed, including making it a 2 passnger car (cough Corvette, cough, cough) would save maybe 150 pounds.

To get where you would like to go involves light weight and exotic materials. I know this from my work on the Z06 where we got an aluminum structure, carbon fiber fender outers, carbon fiber floor panels, carbon fiber fendes and we saved all of .................drum roll please.................165 pounds. And almost all of my guys work was off set by larger wheels and tires, LS7 with remote oil reservoir and Big Ginormous Brakes.

It's just not feasible to get that much weight out without adding a big, humungous pile of cash. And you know what that translates into on the sticker of a low volume car (no rear seats means ultra low volume as you are really now talking a Corvette) don't you????


A number of years ago, as part of a magazine project I prepared, a C5 Z06 was treated to c/f front end/hood/rear fenders/wing/splitter along with Corbeau 1-piece buckets and an LPE rear battery kit, as well as long tube headers and full 3" exhaust. Then, a roll cage/18 X 12 fr./18 X 13 rr. 3-piece wheels with corresponding tires and 6-piston/4-piston calipers were added.

Net effect? SAME curb weight, but w/50-50 distribution...

BTW, an LS7, wet-sumped, will weigh within a pound or three of an LS3... 80 hp, zero weight...it's the HD driveline bits 'n pieces required that will add...
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Old 03-02-2011, 10:58 AM   #47
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Sorry, but 350 to 400 pounds is wayyyyyyy too much. All of the things you listed, including making it a 2 passnger car (cough Corvette, cough, cough) would save maybe 150 pounds.

To get where you would like to go involves light weight and exotic materials. I know this from my work on the Z06 where we got an aluminum structure, carbon fiber fender outers, carbon fiber floor panels, carbon fiber fendes and we saved all of .................drum roll please.................165 pounds. And almost all of my guys work was off set by larger wheels and tires, LS7 with remote oil reservoir and Big Ginormous Brakes.

It's just not feasible to get that much weight out without adding a big, humungous pile of cash. And you know what that translates into on the sticker of a low volume car (no rear seats means ultra low volume as you are really now talking a Corvette) don't you????

150 pound diet works for me.

Corvette > Camaro in every aspect except passenger volume. Dropping the rear seat in a "track Pack" car shouldn't have any impact on the Corvette. Keeping the production numbers down would ensure that.

With the ZL1 having MR suspension, SC'd, larger tires, etc the weight is going the wrong direction. There has to be something that can be done on this platform that can reduce some weight. Going with the smaller 5.5L DI V8 will help, but it can't end there.

CF isn't always the way to go with weight savings in mind. I know the RK Sport OEM style CF hood had zero weight difference compared to the factory SS hood. The thin aluminum that is used on the body panels isn't that heavy.

Now if they could do something to cut the weight down in the doors.... It's all nice in theory, but I'm sure if it is ever made it will be bad azz anyway.
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Old 03-02-2011, 03:05 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by Dragoneye View Post
So....because GM wasn't first this time around to produce a car with LOW demand and likely few here would buy....they're a follower and therefor inferior?

Wake up and smell the rubber people....while these cars are really cool, and we all drool over them -- the demand is almost non-existent and the return-on-investment is not worth it unless the only goal is bragging rights. (In a market where the Camaro is dominating the Mustang at every turn...bragging rights would be important for Ford, right now)

Remember...while Ford can throw some $$$ at this extremely-niche vehicle; GM financially supports both the Camaro AND the Corvette (one model of which is a better performer than 99% of production cars in the world). Put any Mustang up against even *just* a Grand Sport 'Vette and get back to me..........

Sorry for the little rant...but I wish people wouldn't be so quick to draw such wild conclusions out of thin-air, sometimes....

EDIT: Oh, and one more thing....just wait a little bit longer for the ZL1 to put down some numbers...I think MANY will be (or should be) blown away...
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Old 03-02-2011, 03:06 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by OldJedi View Post
I guess I should have re-phrased it. I do not think that the ZL1 will continue on to the Alpha chassis with a S/C 6.2 engine. Everything seems to point to a downsizing of engines to meet efficiency and CAFE requirements. If they do continue the ZL1 nameplate it will be with a smaller DI engine that hopefully makes the same power. The current ZL1 will be the last of the "Big Blocks" for quite some time.
The current ZL1 is not a big block, it is LS small block. You probably meant the end of the big cubic inch motors. and i agree with you,because of the stringent MPG they have too meet by 2013, GM is going to smaller cubic inch engines.

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Old 03-02-2011, 04:56 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by 2010SSRSM6 View Post
150 pound diet works for me.

Corvette > Camaro in every aspect except passenger volume. Dropping the rear seat in a "track Pack" car shouldn't have any impact on the Corvette. Keeping the production numbers down would ensure that.

With the ZL1 having MR suspension, SC'd, larger tires, etc the weight is going the wrong direction. There has to be something that can be done on this platform that can reduce some weight. Going with the smaller 5.5L DI V8 will help, but it can't end there.CF isn't always the way to go with weight savings in mind. I know the RK Sport OEM style CF hood had zero weight difference compared to the factory SS hood. The thin aluminum that is used on the body panels isn't that heavy.

Now if they could do something to cut the weight down in the doors.... It's all nice in theory, but I'm sure if it is ever made it will be bad azz anyway.
Decreasing displacement will not reduce wieght at all, Its still a small block. The 5.5 ltr displacement V8 that the vette used in le-mans is the 6.2 block with the 4.8 Crank.
OHV are already the lightest V8 on the market, I honestly can't think of any lighter ones because most other companies use DOHC which are naturaly heavier. For example the BMW M3 4.0 V8 wieghs more than the LS3.
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Old 03-02-2011, 06:03 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by OldJedi View Post
I guess I should have re-phrased it. I do not think that the ZL1 will continue on to the Alpha chassis with a S/C 6.2 engine. Everything seems to point to a downsizing of engines to meet efficiency and CAFE requirements. If they do continue the ZL1 nameplate it will be with a smaller DI engine that hopefully makes the same power. The current ZL1 will be the last of the "Big Blocks" for quite some time.
Interesting take on the situation...Here's my opinion, for what its worth...

The CTS is getting bigger.
The CTS will be on a long-wheelbase version of the Alpha chassis.
The CTS will still harbor a 'V' series model...
...therefore the CTS will still need a lot of freakin' power to keep it competitive.
The ZR1 Corvette will also continue in the next generation...

I think the chances of a forced-induction, moderate-to-high displacement Gen V smallblock is high, because the need for that sort of power will be there.

And if they felt like it...I think they could justify using this theoretical engine in a smaller 6thgen Camaro for a ZL1-on-steroids.
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Old 03-02-2011, 06:04 PM   #52
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Go simple.

forged wheels = less weight
manual seats = less weight
2 piece rotors 6/4 pistons calipers = less weight
coilovers/performance suspension (Pedders/Pfadt) = less weight
electric steering = less weight
LS7 = more power
3.73 gearing = more performance

This is very doable.
Maybe lose 150 lbs. off a 1SS (Huh, Number 3)
4.0 0-60
12.0 1/4 mile
110' 60-0
1.0 G
75.0 Slalom
$42,000.

Any comments Number 3? I respect your thoughts!
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Old 03-02-2011, 06:19 PM   #53
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4.0 0-60
12.0 1/4 mile
110' 60-0
1.0 G
75.0 Slalom
I read those and smiled a little....only because the ZL1 will likely do as good or better...and come with all the trimmings inside.
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Old 03-02-2011, 07:18 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by 2cnd chance View Post
Go simple.

forged wheels = less weight
manual seats = less weight
2 piece rotors 6/4 pistons calipers = less weight
coilovers/performance suspension (Pedders/Pfadt) = less weight
electric steering = less weight
LS7 = more power
3.73 gearing = more performance

This is very doable.
Maybe lose 150 lbs. off a 1SS (Huh, Number 3)
4.0 0-60
12.0 1/4 mile
110' 60-0
1.0 G
75.0 Slalom
$42,000.

Any comments Number 3? I respect your thoughts!
Forged wheels may offer a reduction. But GM has some pretty severe wheel requirements. I know shopping for my Sky I can find some "race" wheels that save about 8 pounds per wheel. But race means no potholes.

Manual seats for sure, but only a few pounds. I know my Sky has power height on the driver side, but manual for all others. So that can work.

I will let Pedders or Pfadt comment on this. My first instinct is they actually weigh a bit more. But that is a factless observation.

I haven't seen the EPS mass. ZL1 has EPS, SS doesn't so if it weighs less it's good. Plus better FE.

LS7 is for sure more power and awesomeness. But just big bucks due to the manual build in Wixom. I'd hope for a nice LS3 bump. Problem there is you now make the LS7 obsolete. Why pay big bucks for 505 when you can get 450+ for much less.

Gearing something that I think could add an immediate benefit. Honestly not sure why we haven't tapped into this.

I like your numbers, which would require the LS7.

I think your cost is ok, but not with the LS7 which is the contradiction.

But for me, here is what I would do to drop the weight and still have a car pleasant to drive every day.

Start with a 1SS

Eliminate all engine covers and plastic in the engine compartment. If it isn't moving fuel or coolant..............gone.

Manual seats.

No fog lamps. No LS filler. Just a simple fascia.

No mail slot.

No floor mats. (optional on 1SS anyway??)

No trunk trim, no flat load floor, no spare, no inflator. Just a can of fix a flat.

No folding rear seat. Yes, I want a rear seat or I'd just buy a Corvette. But I don't need latches and pull strap to fold it down on very rare occasions.

I'd remove some but not all NVH treatments. Lighter dash matt, reduced mastic materials on the body.

Eliminate the push/push fuel door and add the finger cup back in. This eliminates the push pin mechanism.

Smaller bare bones console. Simple arm rest in between the seats.

No power passenger side rear view mirror.

Go to a 15 gallon fuel tank. Saves full tank of fuel mass and also just a smaller, lighter tank.

Thinner glass for windshield, doors, back light and quarter glass.

That might, and I'm guessing save 50 pounds, not counting the reduction of 3 gallons of gas (an extra 20 pounds)

Adds:

Carbon fiber hood

Titanium exhaust (C5 Z06)

Glass Matt battery (bad for performance, but good for mass)

Magnesium front cradle (C6 Z06)

Low mass race wheels (C5 had titanium but wouldn't go quite that far)

Again, guessing a bit, you might save another 100 pounds.

So total reduced weight 150 pounds over a 1SS.

If at all possible, get the Wixom LS3 (reported to make more power) and add tweak it where possible. Only asking for 450 at the crank.

Now add the suspension improvements from the ZL1 minus MR shocks.

Widen the front tires to help understeer.

Now you have a slightly lighter, slightly more powerful and slightly better handling car.

That will likely not get your 0 - 60 in 4.0 seconds or 12 second 1/4, but might make the rest of your numbers.
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Old 03-02-2011, 07:39 PM   #55
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Forged wheels may offer a reduction. But GM has some pretty severe wheel requirements. I know shopping for my Sky I can find some "race" wheels that save about 8 pounds per wheel. But race means no potholes.

Manual seats for sure, but only a few pounds. I know my Sky has power height on the driver side, but manual for all others. So that can work.

I will let Pedders or Pfadt comment on this. My first instinct is they actually weigh a bit more. But that is a factless observation.

I haven't seen the EPS mass. ZL1 has EPS, SS doesn't so if it weighs less it's good. Plus better FE.

LS7 is for sure more power and awesomeness. But just big bucks due to the manual build in Wixom. I'd hope for a nice LS3 bump. Problem there is you now make the LS7 obsolete. Why pay big bucks for 505 when you can get 450+ for much less.

Gearing something that I think could add an immediate benefit. Honestly not sure why we haven't tapped into this.

I like your numbers, which would require the LS7.

I think your cost is ok, but not with the LS7 which is the contradiction.

But for me, here is what I would do to drop the weight and still have a car pleasant to drive every day.

Start with a 1SS

Eliminate all engine covers and plastic in the engine compartment. If it isn't moving fuel or coolant..............gone.

Manual seats.

No fog lamps. No LS filler. Just a simple fascia.

No mail slot.

No floor mats. (optional on 1SS anyway??)

No trunk trim, no flat load floor, no spare, no inflator. Just a can of fix a flat.

No folding rear seat. Yes, I want a rear seat or I'd just buy a Corvette. But I don't need latches and pull strap to fold it down on very rare occasions.

I'd remove some but not all NVH treatments. Lighter dash matt, reduced mastic materials on the body.

Eliminate the push/push fuel door and add the finger cup back in. This eliminates the push pin mechanism.

Smaller bare bones console. Simple arm rest in between the seats.

No power passenger side rear view mirror.

Go to a 15 gallon fuel tank. Saves full tank of fuel mass and also just a smaller, lighter tank.

Thinner glass for windshield, doors, back light and quarter glass.

That might, and I'm guessing save 50 pounds, not counting the reduction of 3 gallons of gas (an extra 20 pounds)

Adds:

Carbon fiber hood

Titanium exhaust (C5 Z06)

Glass Matt battery (bad for performance, but good for mass)

Magnesium front cradle (C6 Z06)

Low mass race wheels (C5 had titanium but wouldn't go quite that far)

Again, guessing a bit, you might save another 100 pounds.

So total reduced weight 150 pounds over a 1SS.

If at all possible, get the Wixom LS3 (reported to make more power) and add tweak it where possible. Only asking for 450 at the crank.

Now add the suspension improvements from the ZL1 minus MR shocks.

Widen the front tires to help understeer.

Now you have a slightly lighter, slightly more powerful and slightly better handling car.

That will likely not get your 0 - 60 in 4.0 seconds or 12 second 1/4, but might make the rest of your numbers.
Much easier and cheaper way to go....purchase a "Body in White" rolling chassis and base build the car. Use lexan windows and for the side windows eliminate ALL mechanisms and install a strap and a velcro "latch" to hold it up (Dodge Feather Dusters had them), acid dip body before assembly, and cut the excess off every bolt that sticks out from the top of a nut....I did this on my malibu and had a bucket of titties that weighed 11.5 POUNDS!!!
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Old 03-03-2011, 11:16 AM   #56
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The problem I have with this information is that the car is scheduled to be released next April. The new ZL1 starts production Jan. 2012 and gets to dealers in March 2012. I don't think the Z28 will come into showrooms a month later.

As much as I had hoped the name of the coming ZL1 was actually Z28, the car itself is actually what I was looking for. I have gotten used to the fact that it will be named ZL1 and that further down the road there will be a Z28. It most likely will NOT be a S/C engine and be more of a road star. I hope for those of you that will wait for the Z28, that it will be everything that you want it to be. Chevy built me exactly what I wanted in a ZL1. There may be cars built that will be faster or others that handle better, but none that will take the place of my ZL1.
I agree whole heartedly with you Jedi. I want to ad that based on what we know about the whole Z28 idea and project with the Gen 5 body and what GM went through to get where we are now, I feel that the ZL-1 became the fruition of the Z28 idea. It morphed into the ZL-1 because of the time lag and the competitions unobstructed product advancement. I think it was a stroke of luck, fate, timing, and genious. It will be the fastest factory produced straight line and top end Camaro of all time IMHO. That's what I am after. I wanted the Z28 emblem on it too, I wanted this rumored in testing and in development Camaro we all followed over the past couple of years to be that moniker. I am an old Z28 guy from way back. However, as every day passes and the more I think about the ZL-1 in it's entirety I know that it's something unique and special. It's everything I always wanted, and then some! And this ZL-1 moniker will never come back again. The Z28 will come back, and will probably be the niche road course performer that it is speculated to be. Hey, no one ever said you can only fall in love once. And Shakespear was right about whats in a name. But I am truely in love with the ZL-1. And new romances are always exciting.
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