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Old 03-22-2011, 11:13 AM   #15
PfadtRacing
 
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PM sent for some more info from the original poster. This is the first failure at that bracket that we've seen, so I'm likely to say that this is a strange isolated incident.

As far as the springs are concerned they are a progressive rate spring, meaning there are different spring rates at different parts of spring compression. The coils that you're looking at are at the extremely light side of that progressive rate and are used to achieve the proper free length while the car is at full droop, they are actually designed to stack together while the car is on the ground or under compression. This is the way they are designed, and the factory springs do the same. The springs are working exactly as designed and we see no issues with the spring at all.

There is a lifetime warranty extended to the original owner of our springs. Should the original owner ever experience a spring failure please let us know. The original poster has absolutely nothing to worry about with regard to our springs and we are gathering more information about the bracket.
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Old 03-22-2011, 12:03 PM   #16
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PFADT,

You seem to think that this may be an isolated incident based on your knowledge. I too have your springs, sways, end links, trailing arms on my car as well along with 22's pretty much the same set up as PQ but I have trailing arms and end links.

In your opinion do you think horsepower or driving habits may have anything to do with this? While I do not track my car I may ocassionally get on it just to air it out, lol. Also is this a part that needs to be check periodically like oil changes etc...

Just asking from a knowledge standpoint.
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Old 03-22-2011, 12:08 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LightningSS View Post
Son of a b!!!

The nut is gone, but bolt undamaged it seems. The passenger side nut was loose, I could turn it with my fingers....
I've had that same thing happen. I just put it back on and torqued the $hit out of it. Happened twide actually, ON the bar like yours. I pit a different type of nut ont it and no more problems.

In my current case, I don't know what happened.

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Originally Posted by TJ91 View Post
wow are you guys serious?!
Pq, did the pfadts cause it or no? Not sure if you would know or not but im just trying to figure out whether I should do drop springs or not because of a poorly designed piece that will or may eventually fail
This is NOT a Pfadt issue. It just isn't. It's the stock end link, and the stock control arm. Sure, the beefier sway bar may be a contributing factor, but the lesson learned here is to buy the end links from your aftermarket bar vendor. Seems the weak link, was the end link.......

Of course, I'm guestimating....... I can't be certain what happened.

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Originally Posted by MIQ View Post
I'll be installing my rear springs today and will inspect them. I only have 500 miles on it right now so I don't expect to see anything wrong. Or will I? :(
I've talked to enough of the right peole to verify this is NOT typical. I wouldn't worry. Just buy the end links too.

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Originally Posted by hypurone View Post
I hate to say it, but in looking at the pics, I see rust around the mounting holes which usually indicates they were run "loose" and that will chew sh1t up real quick!
I think you are right. It may have loosened up and ovaled out the hole.

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Originally Posted by PAUL SS View Post
Hey PQ, are your springs binding? I was looking at the first photo and noticed the ring of rust on the coils like the paint had been worn off by rubbing on each other. Just something you may want to consider. Good Luck.
That's normal. Nothing to worry about.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PfadtRacing View Post
PM sent for some more info from the original poster. This is the first failure at that bracket that we've seen, so I'm likely to say that this is a strange isolated incident.
I hope you are right. So the other picture from the other side is normal? With the split in the top?

And, how will this affect driveability exactly?
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Old 03-22-2011, 12:41 PM   #18
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Hey PQ, this sucks to see, but also very educational.

What setting did you have the rear bar set to (meaning which hole are the endlinks attached to)? I think the stronger rear bar coupled with your supercharger has caused the rear endlink brackets to fail the way they did. Too many hard launches and the weakest part of the whole rear endlink set up failed, which happens to be the control arm bracket. The other side is starting to crack too.

Might as well get a set of these:
http://www.spohn.net/shop/2010-Chevr...ontiac-G8.html

You might want to email them to see if their replacement LCA has taken this into account.

Good Luck!
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Old 03-22-2011, 12:59 PM   #19
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I DEFINITELY do not think it is a Pfadt issue as well maybe just finding a weak link in the chain so to speak or may be the fact that since yours were loose at one time that may have been a contributing factor.

I tend to lean away from the Horsepower theory since alot of people have added alot of HP and this is the first issue that has come up.

Unfortunately it has happened to you PQ. but the good news is I am putting together a Resume' for you and you are a shoe in for your new job as "Product Tester" Once is gets the seal of approval from PQ it will be the industry Gold Standard.

I can see it now. PQ approved this product, or you think your products will stand up? Send it to through the PQ challenge.

I know I am making light of a not so funny situation but you have to admit you are having some of the craziest things happen. Fuze Pull , wheels, etc....
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Old 03-22-2011, 01:11 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Avalnch View Post
Hey PQ, this sucks to see, but also very educational.

What setting did you have the rear bar set to (meaning which hole are the endlinks attached to)? I think the stronger rear bar coupled with your supercharger has caused the rear endlink brackets to fail the way they did. Too many hard launches and the weakest part of the whole rear endlink set up failed, which happens to be the control arm bracket. The other side is starting to crack too.

Might as well get a set of these:
http://www.spohn.net/shop/2010-Chevr...ontiac-G8.html

You might want to email them to see if their replacement LCA has taken this into account.

Good Luck!
I saw those on the net while looking for some better ones. Not sure what I'm going to do yet. I'm trying to verify that I need both arms. The split in the other one might be already there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Jkel View Post
I DEFINITELY do not think it is a Pfadt issue as well maybe just finding a weak link in the chain so to speak or may be the fact that since yours were loose at one time that may have been a contributing factor.

I tend to lean away from the Horsepower theory since alot of people have added alot of HP and this is the first issue that has come up.

Unfortunately it has happened to you PQ. but the good news is I am putting together a Resume' for you and you are a shoe in for your new job as "Product Tester" Once is gets the seal of approval from PQ it will be the industry Gold Standard.

I can see it now. PQ approved this product, or you think your products will stand up? Send it to through the PQ challenge.

I know I am making light of a not so funny situation but you have to admit you are having some of the craziest things happen. Fuze Pull , wheels, etc....


No doubt. If I can't tear it up, it can't be tore up. LMAO
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Old 03-22-2011, 01:27 PM   #21
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[QUOTE=Avalnch;2994909]The other side is starting to crack too.
QUOTE]

Yes it is. I didn't notice this last night, but you can see the crack clearly in the third picture. It is just waiting to pull out too.

This is not a Pfadt issue. It a fitting geometry issue on the "car side." If rust got in around the fastener bushing it probably ate away enough lug material to reduce the strength of the lug enough to let a crack form and then the fastener tears out.

PQ, time to find a good welder to fix the busted side and repair the other.
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Old 03-22-2011, 01:49 PM   #22
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PQ - Did you find better LCA arms?

TIA
Chet
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Old 03-22-2011, 02:11 PM   #23
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It's certainly a mediocre mount design at best, but it would be arm chair Quarterbacking at this point to try and give a solid answer why it failed. We've never seen it before, but we prey for a speedy recovery to PQ!

Long story short we're not exactly sure, it's definitely is a strange issue. The rear control arms are cheap, only about 35-50 bucks. I'm thinking it would be just as expensive to just replace the arm as it would be to hire someone to weld the damaged mount. We would replace them both for a little more piece of mind.
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Old 03-22-2011, 02:14 PM   #24
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This is the third control arm I have seen with this problem. The OE brackets are only 1/8" material and there is insufficient material surroundling the bolt hole. To the OP, where the nuts loose on the end link when you found it this way?

During our control arm testing, we actually updated the sway bar mounts on the control arms specifically because of these failures. The sway bar mounts were increased in thickness to 3/16" material and the hole has a full 1/2" of material around it's radius...
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Old 03-22-2011, 02:50 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMR guy View Post
This is the third control arm I have seen with this problem. The OE brackets are only 1/8" material and there is insufficient material surroundling the bolt hole. To the OP, where the nuts loose on the end link when you found it this way?

During our control arm testing, we actually updated the sway bar mounts on the control arms specifically because of these failures. The sway bar mounts were increased in thickness to 3/16" material and the hole has a full 1/2" of material around it's radius...
That's all great and everything, but when are you guys going to release them to the public?!?!? I've been hearing about these LCA's of yours for over 6 months now!!! Still waiting.... And still waiting on the Drag Sway Bar and Delrin Subframe Bushings too!
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Old 03-22-2011, 02:54 PM   #26
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First this is not a brand issue so we can put that to rest. This is NOT and OE defect or the result of a weak arm. It is a WEAR issue created with the mild steel tab on the arm and a loose endlink nut. The stud sliding up and down elongates the hole and results in failure. We have seen a number of worn holes because the endlink stud and nut were not tight. Our shops have been able to 'repair' them with hardened washers and new tight nuts. Once again, the complete failure is rather unique, but not wear in the hole from loose endlinks.

If you have installed a larger aftermarket bar and do not get the endlink tight you can expect the hole to elongate, to wear faster because the load is higher. Once again, this is NOT a brand issue and applies to ANY and ALL brand larger bars. It is a mild steel tab subjected to a substantial load. The assembly must be made tight and kept tight.

Removing the OE nuts on the ball joint studs and installing them is awkward at best. We have our own system for this that works for us at Pedders. Torque is a gift to the automotive world. We love torque under the hood and the instant acceleration it provides. Toque is also a solution to removing endlink nuts.

1. Clean the threads with a wire brush
2. Spray the threads and nuts with penetrating oil
3. Allow the penetrating oil to soak in
4. Pull out your biggest baddest air gun. Hit it full on. The instant acceleration will break the nut free and remove it

This is no different than breaking your tires free on a burnout. The car stands still while the wheels spin free. In your home shop it may or may not work. It will be dependent on your line pressure, the CFM and you air gun. Torque is the key. The more the better for removing the nuts.

The endlink nuts have quench. They have built in resistance to prevent them from coming loose. When your remove them they lose some quench. Every time you tighten the nut or remove it it loses more quench. You can replace the nuts with new OE or new nyloc nuts of the appropriate grade. You can add a hardened washer on the nut side. You can reuse the OE nut with some LocTite. I LocTite almost everything under the car except drain plugs and lug nuts, but that is a different story. All of these will work IF you get the nut tight.

When you spend sufficient time under a car you learn the feel of a tight metal to metal assembly. You learn the sound of your gun. You know when it is tight. There are GM assembly torque specifications to follow. When you get down to it a seasoned technician will be very close with their torque based on the assembly and bolt size to the OE torque spec because they have done it so many times. They just know. Please save your indignation for not using a torque wrench on this particular assembly. Given the space constraints and number of times the endlink nuts come loose we made the decision to use the gun. If we break it, strip it or whatever we replace it. Time to move on.

In a home shop there will be many that are as good or better technicians. Based on the number of endlink nuts that have come loose they are a problem for many at home and in shops regardless of skill level. Most failures are just lost nuts. PQ had real damage. That brings us to getting these endlinks tight.

1. Clean the threads with a wire brush so tight is tight and not rust binding in the threads before it is really tight
2. Thread the nut on with your fingers to make sure it is correctly threaded
3. Bring out the air gun and make it tight

What can go wrong? You can strip the threads on the endlink ball stud. You can strip the threads out of the nut. You can crack the nut. These are all things that will go wrong if you allow the air gun to just hammer away. You are tightening an all metal assembly. When it beds it is tight. The extra torque from the air gun will get you there. When it all bottoms out stop. If you are not comfortable with this, then do it by hand, BUT they have to be tight or you'll lose a nut, damage the hole or cause a complete failure.

Pedders does supply our bars with endlinks. You can see in this picture the face of the ball stud that mounts flush to the arm is robust. The washer that is installed on the nut side is large and thick. The nuts are nyloc. These combine to make the assembly secure. Feel free to use an air gun. We have yet to strip any threads or crack any nuts. If you do let me know and I'll replace them. We believe that tight is the priority because of the wear we have seen on many DIY installations. Other companies will have different recommendations and you should follow them.



The key take aways from this thread is how critical it is to get the endlink nuts tight to GM torque specifications the first time and knowing that the OE nut loses quench every time it is turned. With proper care at the time of installation your endlink nuts should remain tight in place and your lower rear control arms will provide excellent service. There is NO brand issue. Your OE arms are good to go. Get the endlink nuts tight the first time.

Buy a 55 gallon Drum of LocTite and just dip everything
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Old 03-22-2011, 03:02 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Jkel View Post
PFADT,

You seem to think that this may be an isolated incident based on your knowledge. I too have your springs, sways, end links, trailing arms on my car as well along with 22's pretty much the same set up as PQ but I have trailing arms and end links.

In your opinion do you think horsepower or driving habits may have anything to do with this? While I do not track my car I may occasionally get on it just to air it out, lol. Also is this a part that needs to be check periodically like oil changes etc...

Just asking from a knowledge standpoint.
No sir. It is just a severely elongated bolt hole from the assembly being loose. When the metal became thin enough from the endlink sliding up and down and elongating the hole it failed. There is no flaw in the arm. It has nothing to do with the brand of the bar. It was not RWHP. It was a loose endlink assembly.

Caveats and Disclaimers:

The larger rear bar would exert more force and cause more wear. ALL aftermarket bars are stronger than OE and would do the same or worse.

The more aggressively driven the vehicle the more wear you will see if a component is loose. The higher the RWHP the more likely you would be to see damage from ANY loose assembly.

EVERYTHING in a car or sub-system is related in some way shape or form. To make clear what I am trying to say I'll pull numbers out of the air. What occurred to PQ is 99% loose assembly and 1% all other factors.
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Old 03-22-2011, 03:06 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMR guy View Post
The sway bar mounts were increased in thickness to 3/16" material and the hole has a full 1/2" of material around it's radius...
That's what I'm talking about!
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