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Camaro Z/28 Forum - Z/28 Specific Topics Discussions related to the 5th gen Camaro Z/28 model

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Old 05-08-2011, 10:23 AM   #201
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The IRS when given the right bushings, struts, and springs will out perform a rigid axle on a road coarse.
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Old 05-08-2011, 08:43 PM   #202
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The IRS in the Camaro is poor, hopefully the FE4 option will remedy the strange handling characteristics the Camaro has now.
EEEEHHHH!!!!

WRONG!!!



The IRS on the Camaro is absolutely an amazing piece of engineering, and it's about to get even better with the ZL1's spin on it.

The handling characteristics are due to a myriad of factors, including but not limited to: offset wheel width, sway bar location/thickness, spring rate, damping rates, track-width offsets, bushing stiffness (or lack thereof in some cases) etc, etc...you're familar with all this...

It was also team Camaro's first crack at an IRS Camaro. They've learned many lessons since 2009, and I'm positive we'll see continual improvement moving forward.

There is no inherent problem with the IRS. Saying what you did is much like saying the Mustang looks like garbage because the roof is curvey....there's a BUNCH of reasons it doesn't look good.
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Old 05-09-2011, 02:42 AM   #203
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Originally Posted by Dragoneye View Post
The IRS on the Camaro is absolutely an amazing piece of engineering, and it's about to get even better with the ZL1's spin on it.

The handling characteristics are due to a myriad of factors, including but not limited to: offset wheel width, sway bar location/thickness, spring rate, damping rates, track-width offsets, bushing stiffness (or lack thereof in some cases) etc, etc...you're familar with all this...

It was also team Camaro's first crack at an IRS Camaro. They've learned many lessons since 2009, and I'm positive we'll see continual improvement moving forward.
This... I would 100% agree with you on the multiple handling issues but I would have to disagree with the "absolutely amazing piece of engineering" part. It handles as it was originally intended, it handles like a sedan... The IRS is just a variation of regular independent rear suspension. The IRS was borrowed from the Pontiac G8 with some modifications to the links such as the enlarged "L" link. I understand that this was GM's first attempt at IRS under the Camaro but it was not a brand new system. The teams in Conti had handling issues last month at Barber where the Rolex teams did not. The reason being is that the factory suspension can be modified in the GT class and the GS class must maintain the factory setup. I am interested in where the GT class Camaro's changed the mounting points that allows the Camaro to come to life.

However, I still believe that the FE4 is a quick and inexpensive fix to the oddly behaving IRS system in the Camaro now. I’m not completely sure but, I hadn’t heard that the ZL1 will be upgraded directly. I can only assume that the FE4 suspension work will automatically find its way to the ZL1. During the ZL1 development, handling was probably an issue and now those needed upgrades will be available to the masses via the FE4 package. This will be active research and development and we will actually get to see the Camaro evolve into a potentially fantastic handling vehicle... and maybe eventually the Z28...

Edit: Expect the FE4 package to be the opposite of lightweight. Part of me really wants to see the Corvettes Transverse leaf spring suspension under the future Z28. That system is as lightweight as you can get and the Corvettes IRS is also as light as they come (with the exception of newer IRS systems)... What would the cost figure be to adapted a current version of the Corvettes TLS and IRS into a 5th Gen? How difficult would it be to retro fit the TLS/IRS into a 5th Gen Camaro? I know for a fact that the benefits would be there just not sure the cost and difficulty would be reasonable. GM has enough time to make a significant change to the 5th Gen, I am hoping that this chassis last until the 50th anniversary.

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Old 05-12-2011, 09:41 PM   #204
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This... I would 100% agree with you on the multiple handling issues but I would have to disagree with the "absolutely amazing piece of engineering" part. It handles as it was originally intended, it handles like a sedan... The IRS is just a variation of regular independent rear suspension. The IRS was borrowed from the Pontiac G8 with some modifications to the links such as the enlarged "L" link. I understand that this was GM's first attempt at IRS under the Camaro but it was not a brand new system. The teams in Conti had handling issues last month at Barber where the Rolex teams did not. The reason being is that the factory suspension can be modified in the GT class and the GS class must maintain the factory setup. I am interested in where the GT class Camaro's changed the mounting points that allows the Camaro to come to life.
With respect...I never speak in terms of racing teams...because I don't care what they're doing or how the parts translate. I'm interested in factory equipment and how things perform on the street.

As far as amazing engineering...I'll have to defer to my friends in the suspension aftermarket. Not being a suspension engineer myself - I can't qualify my statements, but I have heard nothing but compliments for the 4.5 link system Holden developed in the Zeta platform. And these from people I trust. So...forgive me if a smirk a little when I hear it downplayed as nothing more than a 'regular sedan's IRS'.....

However, I still believe that the FE4 is a quick and inexpensive fix to the oddly behaving IRS system in the Camaro now. Iím not completely sure but, I hadnít heard that the ZL1 will be upgraded directly. I can only assume that the FE4 suspension work will automatically find its way to the ZL1. During the ZL1 development, handling was probably an issue and now those needed upgrades will be available to the masses via the FE4 package. This will be active research and development and we will actually get to see the Camaro evolve into a potentially fantastic handling vehicle... and maybe eventually the Z28...
Agreed. FE4 is a calibration designation. Expect the '12 SS to be stiffer, more agile, and dialed in. Complete overhaul expectations can have a seat in the next room...

The ZL1 press release cited a repositioning of the sway end links as well as other "patent-pending" alterations to the drivertrain/suspension. The ZL1 is a very, very special Camaro.

Edit: Expect the FE4 package to be the opposite of lightweight. Part of me really wants to see the Corvettes Transverse leaf spring suspension under the future Z28. That system is as lightweight as you can get and the Corvettes IRS is also as light as they come (with the exception of newer IRS systems)... What would the cost figure be to adapted a current version of the Corvettes TLS and IRS into a 5th Gen? How difficult would it be to retro fit the TLS/IRS into a 5th Gen Camaro? I know for a fact that the benefits would be there just not sure the cost and difficulty would be reasonable. GM has enough time to make a significant change to the 5th Gen, I am hoping that this chassis last until the 50th anniversary.
Well...the composite transverse leaf system in the Corvette is more expensive than even a set of true coil overs...and the architecture must be designed specifically for that application...so the short answer would be "don't count on it"...
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Old 05-18-2011, 08:58 PM   #205
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Boss Killer? I don't think so

This is a nice read to get some perspective on the Z28.

http://forums.themustangsource.com/f...up-too-495189/

I think a Boss Killer is a bit too much to expect of this car. I would be happy if it can just compete with the Boss. Will the Z28 run with Z06 Corvettes with only upgraded tires and some alignment jiggling? Will Chevy really build a track rat like the Boss?

I for one would be amazed.
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Old 05-18-2011, 09:01 PM   #206
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fraxum View Post
This is a nice read to get some perspective on the Z28.

http://forums.themustangsource.com/f...up-too-495189/

I think a Boss Killer is a bit too much to expect of this car. I would be happy if it can just compete with the Boss. Will the Z28 run with Z06 Corvettes with only upgraded tires and some alignment jiggling? Will Chevy really build a track rat like the Boss?

I for one would be amazed.
You don't think they can out-build the Ford?
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Old 05-18-2011, 09:58 PM   #207
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You don't think they can out-build the Ford?
There is no doubt that they CAN. The question really is WILL they?
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Old 05-18-2011, 10:01 PM   #208
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There is no doubt that they CAN. The question really is WILL they?
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Old 05-18-2011, 10:14 PM   #209
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We all know whatever the nameplate offered by any company, we are going to mod the hell out of whatever they offer us. that is just what we do. take their ideas of fast and make our own hotrods. It's fun for us. I've been doing it since the 60s and lovin it. Keep it up.....it's american !!
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Old 05-19-2011, 10:38 AM   #210
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fraxum View Post
This is a nice read to get some perspective on the Z28.

http://forums.themustangsource.com/f...up-too-495189/

I think a Boss Killer is a bit too much to expect of this car. I would be happy if it can just compete with the Boss. Will the Z28 run with Z06 Corvettes with only upgraded tires and some alignment jiggling? Will Chevy really build a track rat like the Boss?

I for one would be amazed.
Hey Number 3 I think GM was just called out!!!
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Old 05-19-2011, 09:32 PM   #211
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Originally Posted by Dragoneye View Post
You don't think they can out-build the Ford?
Well of course they could but what would be the cost of that car? The Camaro has a stiffer chassis and the advantage of IRS. But weight is the Camaro's achilles heel. As has been noted here the Boss is heavier than the standard Mustang. This could also be the fate of the Z28. Chevy has to be careful to build a car at a price level people would actually buy that would slot in between the SS and the ZL-1. So big weight savings cannot be part of the plan.

Still, I am excited about the Z28 even if I do not buy one. I hope it results in a few upgrades I can add to my SS like the Boss has for the GT.

Both the Boss and Z28 are image cars. Neither is going to make any money for their respective companies. One interesting thing I see over on the Ford boards is the threads discussing the pros and cons of the Boss. A number of these threads sort of lean towards the idea that most people are better off with a GT rather than the Boss.

One conclusion you could make is that when it comes right down to it, many like the idea of a track car, most do not want to live with one. Ford was smart in building only a very limited number of Bosses. I am sure Chevy HiPo marketing is looking at this too and wondering if the Z28 is really such a good idea.

Another thing worries me. The Z28 is still a ways off and has not been officially announced. The Mustang GT sales are running out of gas. Are the Camaro sales slowing too? I thought so but I am not sure. The Mustang, Camaro, and Challenger are all so good. Have most people who wanted a muscle car bought one by now? If so, then will the Z28 be built?

Still, to paraphrase one of the recent Motor Trend covers:

"Forget the 60's, this is the golden age of Pony Car muscle"
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Old 05-20-2011, 08:26 PM   #212
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Well of course they could but what would be the cost of that car? The Camaro has a stiffer chassis and the advantage of IRS. But weight is the Camaro's achilles heel.

True, if you have to pick a "weakness" of the 5thgen Camaro, it would be weight. But the 200 lb difference between Mustang and Camaro is easily overcome with some suspension tweaks. I think the 2012 SSs should prove that.

One conclusion you could make is that when it comes right down to it, many like the idea of a track car, most do not want to live with one. Ford was smart in building only a very limited number of Bosses. I am sure Chevy HiPo marketing is looking at this too and wondering if the Z28 is really such a good idea.
This is a serious point to consider. The Boss formula is not a daily-drive car. It's compromised comfort to achieve those impressive numbers. But...if you're a serious racer...you're likely going to want to build one yourself anyways. If Chevy decides to build a Z28 that reflects the Boss, I think it's going to be a conscious choice deemed affordable for them.

Another thing worries me. The Z28 is still a ways off and has not been officially announced. The Mustang GT sales are running out of gas. Are the Camaro sales slowing too?
No. Camaro sales are still very strong. And this is with minimal to no incentives.


I look forward to a Z28. I do!!There is much more to consider with a car like this, though. It's not an easy decision...especially since the ZL1 has been released and essentially "completed" the lineup.
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Old 05-21-2011, 09:46 AM   #213
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I woudnt say completed the line up. Why? The huge pricepoint gap for one. Also the competition is offering more. Those are two BIG reasons.
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Old 05-21-2011, 09:49 AM   #214
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I look forward to a Z28. I do!!There is much more to consider with a car like this, though. It's not an easy decision...especially since the ZL1 has been released and essentially "completed" the lineup.
I wish I knew if the lineup was complete.
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