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Old 05-07-2011, 02:51 PM   #197
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Thats why I said bare bones car, meaning fancy crap! Forget all the power crap like seat's and sun roof, seat wormer's ect even put a solid axle rear. Basicly a factory race car, I dont think it should cost more then say 35k... the only thing you would be getting is performance and safety. I know what you guys are saying, its not going to happen, I know that. My SS is just fine anyway.
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Old 05-07-2011, 03:03 PM   #198
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I don't see it happening, but I fully support a BOSS killer! I believe we need a model geared specifically to kill every Mustang in production!

LT must own Mustang.
SS must own GT.
Z28(?) must own BOSS.
ZL1 must own GT500.

End of story.
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Old 05-07-2011, 04:36 PM   #199
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bad70supreme View Post
Thats why I said bare bones car, meaning fancy crap! Forget all the power crap like seat's and sun roof, seat wormer's ect even put a solid axle rear. Basicly a factory race car, I dont think it should cost more then say 35k... the only thing you would be getting is performance and safety. I know what you guys are saying, its not going to happen, I know that. My SS is just fine anyway.

A solid rear axle for a track car when it already has IRS???
I don't thinK so. GM will answer the Boss, just watch.
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Old 05-07-2011, 05:06 PM   #200
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A solid rear axle for a track car when it already has IRS???
I don't thinK so. GM will answer the Boss, just watch.
That would be an incredible way to save 100+ pounds... The IRS in the Camaro is poor, hopefully the FE4 option will remedy the strange handling characteristics the Camaro has now. Most people confuse IRS with a handling aid when it is nothing more than a ride enhancer. High level IRS systems do improve handling but that is not found under the 5th Gen. Look to the Grand Am series in the Continental Tire GS class and you will see the difficulty the Camaro's have in that class.
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Old 05-08-2011, 11:23 AM   #201
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The IRS when given the right bushings, struts, and springs will out perform a rigid axle on a road coarse.
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Old 05-08-2011, 09:43 PM   #202
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The IRS in the Camaro is poor, hopefully the FE4 option will remedy the strange handling characteristics the Camaro has now.
EEEEHHHH!!!!

WRONG!!!



The IRS on the Camaro is absolutely an amazing piece of engineering, and it's about to get even better with the ZL1's spin on it.

The handling characteristics are due to a myriad of factors, including but not limited to: offset wheel width, sway bar location/thickness, spring rate, damping rates, track-width offsets, bushing stiffness (or lack thereof in some cases) etc, etc...you're familar with all this...

It was also team Camaro's first crack at an IRS Camaro. They've learned many lessons since 2009, and I'm positive we'll see continual improvement moving forward.

There is no inherent problem with the IRS. Saying what you did is much like saying the Mustang looks like garbage because the roof is curvey....there's a BUNCH of reasons it doesn't look good.
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Old 05-09-2011, 03:42 AM   #203
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The IRS on the Camaro is absolutely an amazing piece of engineering, and it's about to get even better with the ZL1's spin on it.

The handling characteristics are due to a myriad of factors, including but not limited to: offset wheel width, sway bar location/thickness, spring rate, damping rates, track-width offsets, bushing stiffness (or lack thereof in some cases) etc, etc...you're familar with all this...

It was also team Camaro's first crack at an IRS Camaro. They've learned many lessons since 2009, and I'm positive we'll see continual improvement moving forward.
This... I would 100% agree with you on the multiple handling issues but I would have to disagree with the "absolutely amazing piece of engineering" part. It handles as it was originally intended, it handles like a sedan... The IRS is just a variation of regular independent rear suspension. The IRS was borrowed from the Pontiac G8 with some modifications to the links such as the enlarged "L" link. I understand that this was GM's first attempt at IRS under the Camaro but it was not a brand new system. The teams in Conti had handling issues last month at Barber where the Rolex teams did not. The reason being is that the factory suspension can be modified in the GT class and the GS class must maintain the factory setup. I am interested in where the GT class Camaro's changed the mounting points that allows the Camaro to come to life.

However, I still believe that the FE4 is a quick and inexpensive fix to the oddly behaving IRS system in the Camaro now. I’m not completely sure but, I hadn’t heard that the ZL1 will be upgraded directly. I can only assume that the FE4 suspension work will automatically find its way to the ZL1. During the ZL1 development, handling was probably an issue and now those needed upgrades will be available to the masses via the FE4 package. This will be active research and development and we will actually get to see the Camaro evolve into a potentially fantastic handling vehicle... and maybe eventually the Z28...

Edit: Expect the FE4 package to be the opposite of lightweight. Part of me really wants to see the Corvettes Transverse leaf spring suspension under the future Z28. That system is as lightweight as you can get and the Corvettes IRS is also as light as they come (with the exception of newer IRS systems)... What would the cost figure be to adapted a current version of the Corvettes TLS and IRS into a 5th Gen? How difficult would it be to retro fit the TLS/IRS into a 5th Gen Camaro? I know for a fact that the benefits would be there just not sure the cost and difficulty would be reasonable. GM has enough time to make a significant change to the 5th Gen, I am hoping that this chassis last until the 50th anniversary.

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Old 05-12-2011, 10:41 PM   #204
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This... I would 100% agree with you on the multiple handling issues but I would have to disagree with the "absolutely amazing piece of engineering" part. It handles as it was originally intended, it handles like a sedan... The IRS is just a variation of regular independent rear suspension. The IRS was borrowed from the Pontiac G8 with some modifications to the links such as the enlarged "L" link. I understand that this was GM's first attempt at IRS under the Camaro but it was not a brand new system. The teams in Conti had handling issues last month at Barber where the Rolex teams did not. The reason being is that the factory suspension can be modified in the GT class and the GS class must maintain the factory setup. I am interested in where the GT class Camaro's changed the mounting points that allows the Camaro to come to life.
With respect...I never speak in terms of racing teams...because I don't care what they're doing or how the parts translate. I'm interested in factory equipment and how things perform on the street.

As far as amazing engineering...I'll have to defer to my friends in the suspension aftermarket. Not being a suspension engineer myself - I can't qualify my statements, but I have heard nothing but compliments for the 4.5 link system Holden developed in the Zeta platform. And these from people I trust. So...forgive me if a smirk a little when I hear it downplayed as nothing more than a 'regular sedan's IRS'.....

However, I still believe that the FE4 is a quick and inexpensive fix to the oddly behaving IRS system in the Camaro now. Iím not completely sure but, I hadnít heard that the ZL1 will be upgraded directly. I can only assume that the FE4 suspension work will automatically find its way to the ZL1. During the ZL1 development, handling was probably an issue and now those needed upgrades will be available to the masses via the FE4 package. This will be active research and development and we will actually get to see the Camaro evolve into a potentially fantastic handling vehicle... and maybe eventually the Z28...
Agreed. FE4 is a calibration designation. Expect the '12 SS to be stiffer, more agile, and dialed in. Complete overhaul expectations can have a seat in the next room...

The ZL1 press release cited a repositioning of the sway end links as well as other "patent-pending" alterations to the drivertrain/suspension. The ZL1 is a very, very special Camaro.

Edit: Expect the FE4 package to be the opposite of lightweight. Part of me really wants to see the Corvettes Transverse leaf spring suspension under the future Z28. That system is as lightweight as you can get and the Corvettes IRS is also as light as they come (with the exception of newer IRS systems)... What would the cost figure be to adapted a current version of the Corvettes TLS and IRS into a 5th Gen? How difficult would it be to retro fit the TLS/IRS into a 5th Gen Camaro? I know for a fact that the benefits would be there just not sure the cost and difficulty would be reasonable. GM has enough time to make a significant change to the 5th Gen, I am hoping that this chassis last until the 50th anniversary.
Well...the composite transverse leaf system in the Corvette is more expensive than even a set of true coil overs...and the architecture must be designed specifically for that application...so the short answer would be "don't count on it"...
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Old 05-18-2011, 09:58 PM   #205
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Boss Killer? I don't think so

This is a nice read to get some perspective on the Z28.

http://forums.themustangsource.com/f...up-too-495189/

I think a Boss Killer is a bit too much to expect of this car. I would be happy if it can just compete with the Boss. Will the Z28 run with Z06 Corvettes with only upgraded tires and some alignment jiggling? Will Chevy really build a track rat like the Boss?

I for one would be amazed.
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Old 05-18-2011, 10:01 PM   #206
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This is a nice read to get some perspective on the Z28.

http://forums.themustangsource.com/f...up-too-495189/

I think a Boss Killer is a bit too much to expect of this car. I would be happy if it can just compete with the Boss. Will the Z28 run with Z06 Corvettes with only upgraded tires and some alignment jiggling? Will Chevy really build a track rat like the Boss?

I for one would be amazed.
You don't think they can out-build the Ford?
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Old 05-18-2011, 10:58 PM   #207
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You don't think they can out-build the Ford?
There is no doubt that they CAN. The question really is WILL they?
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Old 05-18-2011, 11:01 PM   #208
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There is no doubt that they CAN. The question really is WILL they?
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Old 05-18-2011, 11:14 PM   #209
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We all know whatever the nameplate offered by any company, we are going to mod the hell out of whatever they offer us. that is just what we do. take their ideas of fast and make our own hotrods. It's fun for us. I've been doing it since the 60s and lovin it. Keep it up.....it's american !!
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Old 05-19-2011, 11:38 AM   #210
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Originally Posted by Fraxum View Post
This is a nice read to get some perspective on the Z28.

http://forums.themustangsource.com/f...up-too-495189/

I think a Boss Killer is a bit too much to expect of this car. I would be happy if it can just compete with the Boss. Will the Z28 run with Z06 Corvettes with only upgraded tires and some alignment jiggling? Will Chevy really build a track rat like the Boss?

I for one would be amazed.
Hey Number 3 I think GM was just called out!!!
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