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Camaro Z/28 Forum - Z/28 Specific Topics Discussions related to the 5th gen Camaro Z/28 model

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Old 05-27-2011, 10:30 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by 2cnd chance View Post
What are your thoughts?

I'd buy one factory built now!
What you've speced out will cost more than a ZL1 but won't have the performance of the ZL1.

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Originally Posted by toehead93 View Post
I really think the gen 5 Z28, if one is made, will be the SS + "track pack" + Z28 badging...no new engine. I think the gen 6 Z28 has more potential as rumors indicate a possible 5.5L V8 in the lineup. That could leave the SS with a new 6.2L and the Z28 with the race insprired 5.5L V8.
5.5 is simply a road race required displacement. And in race trim it make 485 HP. Meeting durability and emissions, it would make much less. Rumors

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Originally Posted by 2cnd chance View Post
GM,
Why not make a Z28 for the 5Gen? Use the LS7 before it fades into oblivion! Make a car that declares we at GM love our street/track enthusiast! A car that will be remembered for the fact that GM could and they did!
I know the ZL1 is the "it" car, but F**d has the Gt500 and the Boss. Why you ask? Two different buyers, the I want it all Grand Touring customer and the corner carver/track customer. The Z28 would/could be a parts binner. It would market itself no doubt.
Just build it!!!
Just build it, but would you pay for the LS7? And do you really think you can get a non MR car to handle better than a ZL1? There is a reason why the ZR1 has MR....................it's really, really good.

Just questions.

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LS7, converted to wet sump, with ZL1 wheels/tires = 1SS Curb Weight.

As Production-ready, currently, LS3 = 426hp, while LS7 = 505hp...maybe 500 with Camaro exhaust (remember, Vette LS3 = 430, Base...).

Co$t$? Priced as crate engines from GM PP, LS7 is LE$$ than LSA, even after purchasing the necessary controller and harness. Partial credit for deleted LS3, so...

1SS + LS7 + HD MN6 + Forged 20s + FE4 = low-$40s (BOSS money).

But ya gotta wanna do it...
Not simply a matter of wanting to do it. Needs a SOLID business case on top of the SS and ZL1. But your math seems in the ball park. An LS7, forged wheels and HD trans for a 10 to 12,000 dollar premium.

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I like your math
What's not to like?

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Originally Posted by 2cnd chance View Post
I think your right.
$7,000. Difference between the LS7 & LS3. Then $31,000. For a SS1. $2,000. For the suspension. Wheels, HD drivetrain & Misc. $3,000. - $4,000. More = $43,000.+. All from the parts bin. Just think of how easy it would be to market a 427 Z28,

Oh, what dreams are made of.
I'll buy one right now! Just badge it Z28!!!!!!!!!!!!
Why not Number 3?
Have to keep in mind, the parts might be there but there is a TON of engineering to get them all put together and actually handle a race track. I know you guys want to think it's easy. It's just not.

But hard work is what we're all about at GM, so ..................................

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Originally Posted by GearBangr View Post
LS7 block
LS7 crank
PM rods
LS7 pistons
LS3 heads and intake

470 HP 470 TQ

There, 427 inch motor, way cheaper than LS7
and more under the curve power than a hopped up LS3
But you've just created an even lower volume engine. And that means hand built at Wixom. And that still means BIG $$$$.

So you are just eliminating the titanium $$$ bits then?

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Originally Posted by 2cnd chance View Post
If it can be kept to 3,800 lbs. And RWHP is 435 we get a 11.99 1/4 mile at 113.5 mph.
I say bring the Boss(?) on!
Sounds like you want a drag car, not a track car.
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Old 05-27-2011, 10:40 PM   #27
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^actually I want it all!
Speed, handling & braking.
Ah Thank You Very Much.
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Old 05-28-2011, 06:30 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by 2cnd chance View Post
If it can be kept to 3,800 lbs. And RWHP is 435 we get a 11.99 1/4 mile at 113.5 mph.
I say bring the Boss(?) on!
Not the best comparison, the Boss and a future Z/28 should be track oriented (premium put on handling) rather than quarter mile stormers. Of course, it would be nice to have the best of both worlds!
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Old 05-28-2011, 09:22 AM   #29
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Not simply a matter of wanting to do it. Needs a SOLID business case on top of the SS and ZL1. But your math seems in the ball park. An LS7, forged wheels and HD trans for a 10 to 12,000 dollar premium.
There isn't a single component, here, that doesn't already exist and/or isn't GM-certified/validated, now or shortly.

This is not a new concept... All manner of Camaro-based support for a BOSS-specific competitor exists, and has since well before the BOSS appeared...

Serious discussions occurred in Summer/Fall-'09, regarding this type of Package. Through an enterprise well-regarded by GM, but ultimately lacking Team support, then; the supply of cars was given as the "issue" and, as you know, "two-sticker" Programs are "banned". But that was "then"...and this is "now". Since then, ZL1-specific components await: trans, HD driveline, brakes, wheels/tires; FE4 is now developed.

Just how many Camaros, as spec'd above, does the Team need to create a Spring-'12 Launch? 2,000? 5,000? 2-per-Dealer?

Float this specific idea in HRM, or Motor Trend, or CandD, or Camaro Performers and see what the response is. Fulfilling the above numbers would happen!

Regardless of the numbers required, I can GUARANTEE you 1...Black-on-Black, hold the stripes!

Oh, and the name? Does anyone need to ASK?!
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Old 05-28-2011, 09:41 AM   #30
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Not the best comparison, the Boss and a future Z/28 should be track oriented (premium put on handling) rather than quarter mile stormers. Of course, it would be nice to have the best of both worlds!
Clyde
I believe tha handling goes without saying (at this point the expectations have been discussed) We are making a case for the use of the LS7 in the Z28 as a last hurrah before it the LS7 goes away. The numbers show it would make sense in competing with the Boss. Plus it along with the other items suggested are avaiable. I say just do it for the Gen5, the Gen6 will be what has to be based on the times and circumstances.
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Old 05-28-2011, 10:08 AM   #31
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There isn't a single component, here, that doesn't already exist and/or isn't GM-certified/validated, now or shortly.

This is not a new concept... All manner of Camaro-based support for a BOSS-specific competitor exists, and has since well before the BOSS appeared...

Serious discussions occurred in Summer/Fall-'09, regarding this type of Package. Through an enterprise well-regarded by GM, but ultimately lacking Team support, then; the supply of cars was given as the "issue" and, as you know, "two-sticker" Programs are "banned". But that was "then"...and this is "now". Since then, ZL1-specific components await: trans, HD driveline, brakes, wheels/tires; FE4 is now developed.

Just how many Camaros, as spec'd above, does the Team need to create a Spring-'12 Launch? 2,000? 5,000? 2-per-Dealer?

Float this specific idea in HRM, or Motor Trend, or CandD, or Camaro Performers and see what the response is. Fulfilling the above numbers would happen!

Regardless of the numbers required, I can GUARANTEE you 1...Black-on-Black, hold the stripes!

Oh, and the name? Does anyone need to ASK?!
What is a two sticker program?
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Old 05-28-2011, 10:19 AM   #32
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Yep. Eliminating the titanium parts, and the cnc LS7 heads. If you can do without the dry sump setup. There's another 1k in parts there too. The LS3 from the GS is handbuilt too. It'll still be cheaper than th LS7. I just want the big motor.
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Old 05-28-2011, 10:32 AM   #33
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Not saying it wouldn't be an awesome car because it would, but I really don't want to see a 3800 pound car called z28. JMO
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Old 05-28-2011, 11:05 AM   #34
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Funny, in 1970, there were 3800 lb. Camaros...an SS396/M40/C60-loaded...and they did not enjoy the structure or the "safety/technology" of the current versions...

Two-sticker? SLP (SS/Firehawks) wore two stickers...one from GM, one from SLP, but sold and warranted directly by GM Dealers.

As to a de-contented LS7, first of all, it doesn't exist...and therefore must suffer through all the certification/validation processes (time/$$$$)...to arrive at a place with lower power/lower redline/less durability (perhaps) and LESS VALUE. Powdered rods tossing heavier, bigger-bore pistons is not my idea of "performance" and, ultimately, may save little/nothing per low volume (relatively) unit.

Go with the BEST you have, that meets Production criteria...NOW! Built, as I say (and the Market reality would be), in low volume, any added costs and complications simply endanger the Business Case...
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Old 05-28-2011, 11:24 AM   #35
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Funny, in 1970, there were 3800 lb. Camaros...an SS396/M40/C60-loaded...and they did not enjoy the structure or the "safety/technology" of the current versions...

Two-sticker? SLP (SS/Firehawks) wore two stickers...one from GM, one from SLP, but sold and warranted directly by GM Dealers.

As to a de-contented LS7, first of all, it doesn't exist...and therefore must suffer through all the certification/validation processes (time/$$$$)...to arrive at a place with lower power/lower redline/less durability (perhaps) and LESS VALUE. Powdered rods tossing heavier, bigger-bore pistons is not my idea of "performance" and, ultimately, may save little/nothing per low volume (relatively) unit.

Go with the BEST you have, that meets Production criteria...NOW! Built, as I say (and the Market reality would be), in low volume, any added costs and complications simply endanger the Business Case...


It doesn't exist? Well build it. That's what car companies do right?
I bet a 7.0 LS3 would do just fine. Not good enough? Do an LS7.
Too expensive? Well your outta of luck then. A z28 that performs as it should
Is not gonna come at less than 40 to 45k. Might be better off if they just not build it
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Old 05-28-2011, 11:33 AM   #36
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Business Case:

Remember SEMA '08? Something called the COPO? Add ZL1 wheels/tires/brakes/trans/diff., and add FE4...and leave the hood body-colored...

Raise your hand if you think someone cross-shopping the sold-out BOSS wanted a nose-heavy, supercharged, "overweight" straight-line-oriented car instead. If SO, they'd have bought a GT 500, wouldn't they?

Would the BOSS-buyer prefer a ZL1? No...or they'd wait, or they'd have bought the GT 500...

And they obviously didn't settle for a GT...and likely never looked at an SS!

Again, the BOSS is sold out...both ways...

"But ya gotta wanna do it"...
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Old 05-28-2011, 11:34 AM   #37
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It doesn't exist? Well build it. That's what car companies do right?
I bet a 7.0 LS3 would do just fine. Not good enough? Do an LS7.
Too expensive? Well your outta of luck then. A z28 that performs as it should
Is not gonna come at less than 40 to 45k. Might be better off if they just not build it
Try reading ALL this page...
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Old 05-28-2011, 11:38 AM   #38
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It doesn't exist? Well build it. That's what car companies do right?
I bet a 7.0 LS3 would do just fine. Not good enough? Do an LS7.
Too expensive? Well your outta of luck then. A z28 that performs as it should
Is not gonna come at less than 40 to 45k. Might be better off if they just not build it
Again, I ask the same questions to the powers to be (but rarely get an answer) if Ford can figure out how to develop, certify, and produce a model specific engine (i.e., Boss 302!) WHY CAN'T GM!!! Does not make any sense to me, all I have heard are excuses about durability, certification, yada yada
yuada, whatever.

Lets hear from GM!!

Don't get me wrong, I love the Camaro--just can't figure out 1) why it takes GM so long to respond to other companies product, 2) why they are not LEADING, and 3) why they always have excuses about tweaking engines for specific output. Just my $00.02

T
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Old 05-28-2011, 12:16 PM   #39
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Again, I ask the same questions to the powers to be (but rarely get an answer) if Ford can figure out how to develop, certify, and produce a model specific engine (i.e., Boss 302!) WHY CAN'T GM!!! Does not make any sense to me, all I have heard are excuses about durability, certification, yada yada
yuada, whatever.

Lets hear from GM!!

Don't get me wrong, I love the Camaro--just can't figure out 1) why it takes GM so long to respond to other companies product, 2) why they are not LEADING, and 3) why they always have excuses about tweaking engines for specific output. Just my $00.02

T
Who says they are not leading? I still dont see Ford with a 2 seat sports car that can rival the Vette

What product have they not responded to from Ford? The Boss that JUST came out?? Besides the fact that it just came out who says you have to have a competitor for each car the other guy has. If you have to have a competitor then I say GM is leading... see Vette comment above
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Old 05-28-2011, 12:19 PM   #40
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Again, I ask the same questions to the powers to be (but rarely get an answer) if Ford can figure out how to develop, certify, and produce a model specific engine (i.e., Boss 302!) WHY CAN'T GM!!! Does not make any sense to me, all I have heard are excuses about durability, certification, yada yada
yuada, whatever.

Lets hear from GM!!

Don't get me wrong, I love the Camaro--just can't figure out 1) why it takes GM so long to respond to other companies product, 2) why they are not LEADING, and 3) why they always have excuses about tweaking engines for specific output. Just my $00.02

T
I would bet that its taking them 'so long to respond' so that they can have a clear product cadence for the Camaro. Start with the coupe, then the vert, then the ZL1, then the Z28, then the new engines, then the next gen, etc. It keeps the buzz about the product alive which always gives customers a new reason to be in show rooms. The one wrench that was thrown in was that after release, everything was probably delayed by about one year due to bankruptcy. I would imagine that development of all non-essential product was halted in an effort to save cash. Convertibles weren't needed. Super high performance Camaros weren't needed. Track focused Camaros weren't needed. Factory drag cars weren't needed (like the Cobra Jet Mustang).

From GM's perspective its not about going model for model and beating Ford. Their biggest concern is how to make money. Throwing a bunch of off the shelf parts is cheaper than developing all new stuff, but the testing & tuning & validation for it on the Camaro isn't pocket change. Same goes for engines. To offer a Z28, they have to know that there are enough distinct customers for that car to more than make back their investment. Stealing customers away from the SS & ZL1 doesn't help a whole lot.

And don't forget ... right now the Camaro coupe and convertible are handily outselling the Mustang in all its forms, with fewer incentives. That means they're probably making more money off the Camaro than Ford is off the Mustang, and that is more important to them than braging rights are to you and I.
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Old 05-28-2011, 12:22 PM   #41
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I would bet that its taking them 'so long to respond' so that they can have a clear product cadence for the Camaro. Start with the coupe, then the vert, then the ZL1, then the Z28, then the new engines, then the next gen, etc. It keeps the buzz about the product alive which always gives customers a new reason to be in show rooms. The one wrench that was thrown in was that after release, everything was probably delayed by about one year due to bankruptcy. I would imagine that development of all non-essential product was halted in an effort to save cash. Convertibles weren't needed. Super high performance Camaros weren't needed. Track focused Camaros weren't needed. Factory drag cars weren't needed (like the Cobra Jet Mustang).

From GM's perspective its not about going model for model and beating Ford. Their biggest concern is how to make money. Throwing a bunch of off the shelf parts is cheaper than developing all new stuff, but the testing & tuning & validation for it on the Camaro isn't pocket change. Same goes for engines. To offer a Z28, they have to know that there are enough distinct customers for that car to more than make back their investment. Stealing customers away from the SS & ZL1 doesn't help a whole lot.

And don't forget ... right now the Camaro coupe and convertible are handily outselling the Mustang in all its forms, with fewer incentives. That means they're probably making more money off the Camaro than Ford is off the Mustang, and that is more important to them than braging rights are to you and I.
I hope so!! I AM looking forward to buying a superior product in the next 1-3 years...


T
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Old 05-28-2011, 12:23 PM   #42
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LSA is a way toned down LS9
I think we can get a toned down LS7.

On GMs defense however, they still have many flavors of corvettes and cadillacs to develop before camaro. So that's another reason for slower response times.
Ford has the mustang and that's it.
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Old 05-28-2011, 12:29 PM   #43
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Stealing customers away from the SS & ZL1 doesn't help a whole lot.
...and losing 5,000 potential buyers/year to the BOSS (it's production capacity, apparently) doesn't help AT ALL...
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Old 05-28-2011, 12:34 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by GearBangr;3274399[B
]LSA is a way toned down LS9[/B]
I think we can get a toned down LS7.

On GMs defense however, they still have many flavors of corvettes and cadillacs to develop before camaro. So that's another reason for slower response times.
Ford has the mustang and that's it.
Ummmmhhhh. No it's not.

LSA and LS9 are 2 completely different engines.
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Old 05-28-2011, 12:35 PM   #45
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LSA is a way toned down LS9
I think we can get a toned down LS7.
By the time you go through ALL the hoops 'n hurdles to build LESS (in relatively limited numbers), your end unit co$t$ will likely be about the SAME...so why do it?

If it's gonna cost me $42,500 to get 475hp, or $42,900 to get 505hp (without risking my warranty with a dyno-tune!!!), sign me up @ $42,900. And make 'er Black-on-Black.

Here's my VISA #...


BTW, LS9 (638) - LSA (556) = 82 hp. LS7 (505) - LS3 (426) = 79. So your toned-down LS7 already exists...no extra charge.
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Old 05-28-2011, 12:38 PM   #46
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...and losing 5,000 potential buyers/year to the BOSS (it's production capacity, apparently) doesn't help AT ALL...
Camaro is still out selling the Mustang.... Honestly how many people really cross shop between the two? Seems to me us car guys like one or the other and cant stand the other
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Old 05-28-2011, 12:45 PM   #47
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Ummmmhhhh. No it's not.

LSA and LS9 are 2 completely different engines.
I know that's my point.
Smaller blower, cast pistons, smaller cam.
I'm not sure about the rods, but I'm willing to bet theyr
Not titanium. Etc.

If the lsa didn't exist and someone here suggested that exactly,
everyone here would call them crazy.
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Old 05-28-2011, 12:56 PM   #48
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Camaro is still out selling the Mustang.... Honestly how many people really cross shop between the two? Seems to me us car guys like one or the other and cant stand the other
There's a difference between "enthusiast" and "fanboy"... I don't belong to a single Mustang forum, anywhere, but I DO like, and will consider (if GM sits idle), a BOSS. And I don't think I'm alone... The ZL1 is NOT "my cup of tea". I refuse to pay a TON of extra dough for something that is NOT a crisp canyon carver. And yes, a ZL1 will set you back at least 10-15% MORE than this "Zee" should be... To ME, that's a TON of dough. And it would stair-step the V8 Camaro price ladder: 1SS = low-mid-$30s; 2SS = mid-upper-$30s; ZL1 = $50+; Z/28 = $40s...

I, for one, was happy when Z28...or Z/28...was NOT used as a name for what we now know as the ZL1. NOW, we have a window of opportunity for THIS Gen Camaro for a REAL Z/28. And, although it's not a new concept, or even MY concept, the one outlined here by me is as close as is likely do-able, this time around, for close-to-BOSS money AND results...
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Old 05-28-2011, 01:01 PM   #49
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I would bet that its taking them 'so long to respond' so that they can have a clear product cadence for the Camaro. Start with the coupe, then the vert, then the ZL1, then the Z28, then the new engines, then the next gen, etc. It keeps the buzz about the product alive which always gives customers a new reason to be in show rooms. The one wrench that was thrown in was that after release, everything was probably delayed by about one year due to bankruptcy. I would imagine that development of all non-essential product was halted in an effort to save cash. Convertibles weren't needed. Super high performance Camaros weren't needed. Track focused Camaros weren't needed. Factory drag cars weren't needed (like the Cobra Jet Mustang).

From GM's perspective its not about going model for model and beating Ford. Their biggest concern is how to make money. Throwing a bunch of off the shelf parts is cheaper than developing all new stuff, but the testing & tuning & validation for it on the Camaro isn't pocket change. Same goes for engines. To offer a Z28, they have to know that there are enough distinct customers for that car to more than make back their investment. Stealing customers away from the SS & ZL1 doesn't help a whole lot.

And don't forget ... right now the Camaro coupe and convertible are handily outselling the Mustang in all its forms, with fewer incentives. That means they're probably making more money off the Camaro than Ford is off the Mustang, and that is more important to them than braging rights are to you and I.
After reading your post I think you made our point. That is off the shelf parts enable GM to more quickly and more reasonably ready a Z28. Coming out with the ZL1 was an answer to Ford. A Z28 is a GM staple. The fact that the Camaro is out selling the Mustang is the perfect reason to add to the Camaro family and get even more or make new customers. And is there ANYONE out there that thinks a Z28 won't sell??????????
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Old 05-28-2011, 01:04 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by TheClassicCarKid View Post
Not saying it wouldn't be an awesome car because it would, but I really don't want to see a 3800 pound car called z28. JMO
Welcome to the future.
Even the Gen6 will be heavy. Too many certification safety blah blah blah....
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