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Old 05-28-2011, 01:12 PM   #51
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Who says they are not leading? I still dont see Ford with a 2 seat sports car that can rival the Vette

What product have they not responded to from Ford? The Boss that JUST came out?? Besides the fact that it just came out who says you have to have a competitor for each car the other guy has. If you have to have a competitor then I say GM is leading... see Vette comment above
The Vette is a niche car made in low volumes. The Camaro is a highly profitable much more mainstream vehicle that should be exploited for the good of GM, and all humanity.

Ok maybe I did get a little carried away at the end.
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Old 05-28-2011, 01:18 PM   #52
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LSA is a way toned down LS9
I think we can get a toned down LS7.

On GMs defense however, they still have many flavors of corvettes and cadillacs to develop before camaro. So that's another reason for slower response times.
Ford has the mustang and that's it.
WE NEED TO STICK TO THE BUSINESS MODEL THAT ALLOWS FOR EXISTING PIECES!!!

Starting something new pushes this forward by years.
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Old 05-28-2011, 01:24 PM   #53
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Camaro is still out selling the Mustang.... Honestly how many people really cross shop between the two? Seems to me us car guys like one or the other and cant stand the other
My mother is cross-shopping right now! She is 68 and still loves cars. I believe she has convinced herself to go with the Camaro. Ok I helped a little bit.
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Old 05-28-2011, 01:29 PM   #54
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There's a difference between "enthusiast" and "fanboy"... I don't belong to a single Mustang forum, anywhere, but I DO like, and will consider (if GM sits idle), a BOSS. And I don't think I'm alone... The ZL1 is NOT "my cup of tea". I refuse to pay a TON of extra dough for something that is NOT a crisp canyon carver. And yes, a ZL1 will set you back at least 10-15% MORE than this "Zee" should be... To ME, that's a TON of dough. And it would stair-step the V8 Camaro price ladder: 1SS = low-mid-$30s; 2SS = mid-upper-$30s; ZL1 = $50+; Z/28 = $40s...

I, for one, was happy when Z28...or Z/28...was NOT used as a name for what we now know as the ZL1. NOW, we have a window of opportunity for THIS Gen Camaro for a REAL Z/28. And, although it's not a new concept, or even MY concept, the one outlined here by me is as close as is likely do-able, this time around, for close-to-BOSS money AND results...
You read my mind.
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Old 05-28-2011, 01:32 PM   #55
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BTW, to those who use the excuse the LS7 is near its end etc., call GM PP and see if they're interested in selling you a truck-load of LS7s. I know the answer: "Where would you like them to be delivered?" "Are you sure you wouldn't like more...?"

As to "reading minds", I too am an enthusiast...and will spend MY hard-saved buck$ where I get what I want...and that, friends, is as it should be.

My allegiance, and my wish? As stated by "the concept"...I was, after all, "involved" in the '09 still-born "program"...
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Old 05-28-2011, 01:36 PM   #56
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BTW, to those who use the excuse the LS7 is near its end etc., call GM PP and see if they're interested in selling you a truck-load of LS7s. I know the answer: "Where would you like them to be delivered?" "Are you sure you wouldn't like more...?"

As to "reading minds", I too am an enthusiast...and will spend MY hard-saved buck$ where I get what I want...and that, friends, is as it should be.
Amen my brother.

It's all about value.
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Old 05-28-2011, 01:36 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by LOWDOWN View Post
I refuse to pay a TON of extra dough for something that is NOT a crisp canyon carver.
Its not even out yet.... you just assume its not going to be a canyon carver. I on the other hand have full faith that it is going to shred canyon roads!

I guess we will just have to wait and see!
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Old 05-28-2011, 02:08 PM   #58
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BTW, to those who use the excuse the LS7 is near its end etc., call GM PP and see if they're interested in selling you a truck-load of LS7s. I know the answer: "Where would you like them to be delivered?" "Are you sure you wouldn't like more...?"

As to "reading minds", I too am an enthusiast...and will spend MY hard-saved buck$ where I get what I want...and that, friends, is as it should be.

My allegiance, and my wish? As stated by "the concept"...I was, after all, "involved" in the '09 still-born "program"...
Well maybe I misread your earlier posts, but it seems like were on the same page.
If they make an LS7 z28, I will buy one. I agree with everything you said there.
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Old 05-28-2011, 02:25 PM   #59
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Its not even out yet.... you just assume its not going to be a canyon carver. I on the other hand have full faith that it is going to shred canyon roads!

I guess we will just have to wait and see!
4000+ lbs, even with MR, will NOT be the scalpel I desire...and I'm sure your buddy JusticePete, off the record, will appreciate the difference.

I'm the guy that had a '68 Z/28 back in the day, when people thought 396/375 was the only way to go. Sure they kicked my ass for a 1/4 mile, but on the turn to the return road, I got to say, "B-Bye!". I'm paraphrasing...

I'm not maligning the ZL1...I don't have $50-55K to play with. If I can save 200lbs. on the nose with similar wheels and tires and brakes, and therefore increased cornering capabilities without MR, and leave the best part of $10Gs in my pocket, I'm a happy dude, dude!

That's the difference between owning, and NOT owning, your Silverado SS, roughly...
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Old 05-28-2011, 02:26 PM   #60
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BTW, to those who use the excuse the LS7 is near its end etc., call GM PP and see if they're interested in selling you a truck-load of LS7s. I know the answer: "Where would you like them to be delivered?" "Are you sure you wouldn't like more...?"
It does not cost GM anything for you to drop a motor in your car. It does however cost GM a ton of money for GM to drop a different motor in your car. Validation is nowhere near a cheap process.
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Old 05-28-2011, 02:33 PM   #61
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The LS7 is Production-ready...it's called a Corvette... It simply (?) needs to be "EPA'd" in a Camaro...and that, as your inside sources will tell you, is a whole lot easier/simpler/quicker/less costly that tweakin' a not-ready-for-prime-time LS3-based one-off...

EDIT: "EPA" should read "Government-ready"...
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Old 05-28-2011, 02:36 PM   #62
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Welcome to the future.
Even the Gen6 will be heavy. Too many certification safety blah blah blah....
Still, next gen shouldn't be as heavy as the current cars. Hopefully the Camaro will get scaled down overall in the next gen and be able to shed 100 lbs or so. And if the z could take another 100 off of that that'd be great. Don't think it's too unrealistic just talking about it now, but of course things are always changing. Cant wait to see what Chevrolet can come up with in a few years
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Old 05-28-2011, 02:39 PM   #63
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Gen-6? A whole 'nother story...
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Old 05-28-2011, 02:51 PM   #64
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Gen-6? A whole 'nother story...
ah I guess I've just been thinking there'd be no 5th gen boss competitor and my mind automatically took me to the sixth gen/off topic for this thread whoops haha.
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Old 05-28-2011, 02:55 PM   #65
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Chevrolet has most of it's chips on the ZL1. I honestly believe we are going to get our Z/28 but not until ZL1's are cruising the streets. Do you think Chevrolet wants a "thunder stealing" Z/28 to compete against ZL1 sales? I know who would win that battle and so does Chevrolet.

I have dog cussed Ford and bleed G.M. blue, but that Boss mustang is bad ass.

The Z/28 is coming, because it's just to damn easy.
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Old 05-28-2011, 03:12 PM   #66
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re-read it ...

ZL1 -LSA -MR+ LS7 + Pedders Coilovers = Z28
It reads as bullet points

ZL1
LSA+LS7
MR+Pedders coilovers


That's why it made no sense. if you put a space between each it would have read right

LSA, -LSA + LS7, -MR +Pedders Coilovers

Would have been much easier
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Old 05-28-2011, 05:00 PM   #67
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It reads as bullet points

ZL1
LSA+LS7
MR+Pedders coilovers


That's why it made no sense. if you put a space between each it would have read right

LSA, -LSA + LS7, -MR +Pedders Coilovers

Would have been much easier
Order of opperations does not matter with addition & subtraction ...
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Old 05-28-2011, 05:26 PM   #68
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I would bet that its taking them 'so long to respond' so that they can have a clear product cadence for the Camaro. Start with the coupe, then the vert, then the ZL1, then the Z28, then the new engines, then the next gen, etc. It keeps the buzz about the product alive which always gives customers a new reason to be in show rooms. The one wrench that was thrown in was that after release, everything was probably delayed by about one year due to bankruptcy. I would imagine that development of all non-essential product was halted in an effort to save cash. Convertibles weren't needed. Super high performance Camaros weren't needed. Track focused Camaros weren't needed. Factory drag cars weren't needed (like the Cobra Jet Mustang).

From GM's perspective its not about going model for model and beating Ford. Their biggest concern is how to make money. Throwing a bunch of off the shelf parts is cheaper than developing all new stuff, but the testing & tuning & validation for it on the Camaro isn't pocket change. Same goes for engines. To offer a Z28, they have to know that there are enough distinct customers for that car to more than make back their investment. Stealing customers away from the SS & ZL1 doesn't help a whole lot.

And don't forget ... right now the Camaro coupe and convertible are handily outselling the Mustang in all its forms, with fewer incentives. That means they're probably making more money off the Camaro than Ford is off the Mustang, and that is more important to them than braging rights are to you and I.
Understand, but, if money outweighs product, with the understanding that each model can't lose money, and if they still can't compete (i.e. = Boss) then I may have to look elsewhere. I know I am in the minority,but there are a significant number of us that compare model for model, $ for $, performance point verse performance point. Again, just my $02. Thoughts, anyone?
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Old 05-28-2011, 05:31 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by LOWDOWN View Post
The LS7 is Production-ready...it's called a Corvette... It simply (?) needs to be "EPA'd" in a Camaro...and that, as your inside sources will tell you, is a whole lot easier/simpler/quicker/less costly that tweakin' a not-ready-for-prime-time LS3-based one-off...

EDIT: "EPA" should read "Government-ready"...
Plopping. Sorry but it isn't plug and play. Shno hit it on the nose. Still a LOZt of work to do for any powertrain change. Just cuz it seems simple s
Doesn't mean it is.
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Old 05-28-2011, 05:43 PM   #70
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Understand, but, if money outweighs product, with the understanding that each model can't lose money, and if they still can't compete (i.e. = Boss) then I may have to look elsewhere. I know I am in the minority,but there are a significant number of us that compare model for model, $ for $, performance point verse performance point. Again, just my $02. Thoughts, anyone?
I want them to win shot for shot too, and I imagine most Camaro enthusiasts would like to see it so I wouldn't say you're in the minority. The problem is, how many would actually buy a Z28 and only a Z28 instead of a SS or ZL1? Unless its thousands per year, they don't have a very strong case to do it. I myself might be inclined to buy a Z28, but I bet I would be just as happy with an SS. People like me don't really help the business case for a Z28 since GM isn't really going to gain anything from me unless they have a substantially higher profit margin on the Z28. Same goes for those who would be caught between a ZL1 & a Z28.

Now, they might do a Z28 as we more or less envision it. They might not. But if they do, I can't see GM saying anything about it until the ZL1 is out and that is over 6 months away as is.
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Old 05-28-2011, 05:47 PM   #71
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Plopping. Sorry but it isn't plug and play. Shno hit it on the nose. Still a LOZt of work to do for any powertrain change. Just cuz it seems simple s
Doesn't mean it is.
I don't believe anyone thinks it's easy, after all the government is involved. OUCH!
what we've done is point out that a Z28 can be done and done much more simply and with less cost because the pieces all exist. This is an incredible head start for any manufacturer. This should not only speed up the process but cut cost. It will assist in paying for the engineering and certification of the Camaro. It should even lessen the cost of the LS7 and the ZL1 since some of its parts will be used. All this while explosively aiding in keeping the Camaro out front. It appears to be a no brainer.
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Old 05-28-2011, 06:09 PM   #72
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I want them to win shot for shot too, and I imagine most Camaro enthusiasts would like to see it so I wouldn't say you're in the minority. The problem is, how many would actually buy a Z28 and only a Z28 instead of a SS or ZL1? Unless its thousands per year, they don't have a very strong case to do it. I myself might be inclined to buy a Z28, but I bet I would be just as happy with an SS. People like me don't really help the business case for a Z28 since GM isn't really going to gain anything from me unless they have a substantially higher profit margin on the Z28. Same goes for those who would be caught between a ZL1 & a Z28.

Now, they might do a Z28 as we more or less envision it. They might not. But if they do, I can't see GM saying anything about it until the ZL1 is out and that is over 6 months away as is.
We've been told that the Camaro is very profitable. All this is doing is expanding the brand. It's also filling in a price point gap. Think of it as a small, medium, large & X large drink. People buy on two basis need/want and ability to afford. I personally and it sounds like others can afford more than an SS but not as much as a ZL1. I, dare I say, we also want more factory performance than an SS (just look at the aftermarket).
What I keep getting back to is that it can be done and there is a crowd that wants it. I'll say it again "does anyone think a Z28 will not sell?"

And would you really be as happy with an SS as a Z28? Really??
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Old 05-28-2011, 06:25 PM   #73
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Understand, but, if money outweighs product, with the understanding that each model can't lose money, and if they still can't compete (i.e. = Boss) then I may have to look elsewhere. I know I am in the minority,but there are a significant number of us that compare model for model, $ for $, performance point verse performance point. Again, just my $02. Thoughts, anyone?
First you know where I stand on this.
They have to make money. For years they didn't have to, but now they do, and should!
But this is doable. It's reasonable. And will be profitable. And yes even though I'm a Camaro guy through an through the Boss pulls at me. It does what I want my Camaro to do, right from the factory at the right pricepoint. I know the various reasons the Camaro is a better car than the Mustang, but GM is not building the Camaro I and some others want. And yes I believe the ZL1 was/is a smart move. You even chose the name I was hoping/pushing for on the forum. It as a business move makes sense. You have the Corvette "Brand" now work on having the Camaro "Brand" so it never disappears again!!!
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Old 05-28-2011, 06:33 PM   #74
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First you know where I stand on this.
They have to make money. For years they didn't have to, but now they do, and should!
But this is doable. It's reasonable. And will be profitable. And yes even though I'm a Camaro guy through an through the Boss pulls at me. It does what I want my Camaro to do, right from the factory at the right pricepoint. I know the various reasons the Camaro is a better car than the Mustang, but GM is not building the Camaro I and some others want. And yes I believe the ZL1 was/is a smart move. You even chose the name I was hoping/pushing for on the forum. It as a business move makes sense. You have the Corvette "Brand" now work on having the Camaro "Brand" so it never disappears again!!!
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Old 05-28-2011, 08:16 PM   #75
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Now, they might do a Z28 as we more or less envision it. They might not. But if they do, I can't see GM saying anything about it until the ZL1 is out and that is over 6 months away as is.
Bingo!
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