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Old 05-28-2011, 06:31 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by LOWDOWN View Post
The LS7 is Production-ready...it's called a Corvette... It simply (?) needs to be "EPA'd" in a Camaro...and that, as your inside sources will tell you, is a whole lot easier/simpler/quicker/less costly that tweakin' a not-ready-for-prime-time LS3-based one-off...

EDIT: "EPA" should read "Government-ready"...
Plopping. Sorry but it isn't plug and play. Shno hit it on the nose. Still a LOZt of work to do for any powertrain change. Just cuz it seems simple s
Doesn't mean it is.
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Old 05-28-2011, 06:43 PM   #70
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Understand, but, if money outweighs product, with the understanding that each model can't lose money, and if they still can't compete (i.e. = Boss) then I may have to look elsewhere. I know I am in the minority,but there are a significant number of us that compare model for model, $ for $, performance point verse performance point. Again, just my $02. Thoughts, anyone?
I want them to win shot for shot too, and I imagine most Camaro enthusiasts would like to see it so I wouldn't say you're in the minority. The problem is, how many would actually buy a Z28 and only a Z28 instead of a SS or ZL1? Unless its thousands per year, they don't have a very strong case to do it. I myself might be inclined to buy a Z28, but I bet I would be just as happy with an SS. People like me don't really help the business case for a Z28 since GM isn't really going to gain anything from me unless they have a substantially higher profit margin on the Z28. Same goes for those who would be caught between a ZL1 & a Z28.

Now, they might do a Z28 as we more or less envision it. They might not. But if they do, I can't see GM saying anything about it until the ZL1 is out and that is over 6 months away as is.
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Old 05-28-2011, 06:47 PM   #71
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Plopping. Sorry but it isn't plug and play. Shno hit it on the nose. Still a LOZt of work to do for any powertrain change. Just cuz it seems simple s
Doesn't mean it is.
I don't believe anyone thinks it's easy, after all the government is involved. OUCH!
what we've done is point out that a Z28 can be done and done much more simply and with less cost because the pieces all exist. This is an incredible head start for any manufacturer. This should not only speed up the process but cut cost. It will assist in paying for the engineering and certification of the Camaro. It should even lessen the cost of the LS7 and the ZL1 since some of its parts will be used. All this while explosively aiding in keeping the Camaro out front. It appears to be a no brainer.
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Old 05-28-2011, 07:09 PM   #72
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I want them to win shot for shot too, and I imagine most Camaro enthusiasts would like to see it so I wouldn't say you're in the minority. The problem is, how many would actually buy a Z28 and only a Z28 instead of a SS or ZL1? Unless its thousands per year, they don't have a very strong case to do it. I myself might be inclined to buy a Z28, but I bet I would be just as happy with an SS. People like me don't really help the business case for a Z28 since GM isn't really going to gain anything from me unless they have a substantially higher profit margin on the Z28. Same goes for those who would be caught between a ZL1 & a Z28.

Now, they might do a Z28 as we more or less envision it. They might not. But if they do, I can't see GM saying anything about it until the ZL1 is out and that is over 6 months away as is.
We've been told that the Camaro is very profitable. All this is doing is expanding the brand. It's also filling in a price point gap. Think of it as a small, medium, large & X large drink. People buy on two basis need/want and ability to afford. I personally and it sounds like others can afford more than an SS but not as much as a ZL1. I, dare I say, we also want more factory performance than an SS (just look at the aftermarket).
What I keep getting back to is that it can be done and there is a crowd that wants it. I'll say it again "does anyone think a Z28 will not sell?"

And would you really be as happy with an SS as a Z28? Really??
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Old 05-28-2011, 07:25 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by Mr T View Post
Understand, but, if money outweighs product, with the understanding that each model can't lose money, and if they still can't compete (i.e. = Boss) then I may have to look elsewhere. I know I am in the minority,but there are a significant number of us that compare model for model, $ for $, performance point verse performance point. Again, just my $02. Thoughts, anyone?
First you know where I stand on this.
They have to make money. For years they didn't have to, but now they do, and should!
But this is doable. It's reasonable. And will be profitable. And yes even though I'm a Camaro guy through an through the Boss pulls at me. It does what I want my Camaro to do, right from the factory at the right pricepoint. I know the various reasons the Camaro is a better car than the Mustang, but GM is not building the Camaro I and some others want. And yes I believe the ZL1 was/is a smart move. You even chose the name I was hoping/pushing for on the forum. It as a business move makes sense. You have the Corvette "Brand" now work on having the Camaro "Brand" so it never disappears again!!!
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Old 05-28-2011, 07:33 PM   #74
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First you know where I stand on this.
They have to make money. For years they didn't have to, but now they do, and should!
But this is doable. It's reasonable. And will be profitable. And yes even though I'm a Camaro guy through an through the Boss pulls at me. It does what I want my Camaro to do, right from the factory at the right pricepoint. I know the various reasons the Camaro is a better car than the Mustang, but GM is not building the Camaro I and some others want. And yes I believe the ZL1 was/is a smart move. You even chose the name I was hoping/pushing for on the forum. It as a business move makes sense. You have the Corvette "Brand" now work on having the Camaro "Brand" so it never disappears again!!!
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Old 05-28-2011, 09:16 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by DGthe3 View Post
Now, they might do a Z28 as we more or less envision it. They might not. But if they do, I can't see GM saying anything about it until the ZL1 is out and that is over 6 months away as is.
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Old 05-28-2011, 10:06 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by 2cnd chance View Post
But this is doable. It's reasonable. And will be profitable.

Im all for a NA Z/28...everyone around here knows that

But if dropping in a LS7 was doable, reasonable and profitable I believe it would have already been done!

I wish I could find the post by Fbodfather that talks about the cost and how it was not practical to use a LS7 in the Camaro...... search engine is not turning it up
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Old 05-28-2011, 10:16 PM   #77
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A while back #3 posted the formula for a lightweight 5th Gen. Building a Z28 and being cost effective for the consumer and GM presents a lot of challenges. Variable height suspension is a major issue because of government crash testing. Having said that there are ways...

If we follow #3's formula to take weight out of the car that would give us the base for a Z28. He detailed it down to the gas cover release mechanism. So assuming we could get GM to build the lightweight version the next step would be a special order check box for track use only. That box would include;
  • Light weight racing wheels (they would never pass GM's wheel testing for street use, but they passed mine ) with something like an RE-11 305/30/19
  • A full Pedders Justice Suspension (all GMPP of course).
  • A track calibration for the ABS, Stability Control (turn it off) and more aggressive engine tune
  • Brake ducts
  • Oil Cooler
  • Diff Cooler
  • PS Cooler

GM only has to do the lightweight build, interior and exterior badges and the Z28 is a reality. Warranty is no issue because the car uses the current stock drive-line.The Z28 with the track pack dealer installed check box makes our dreams come true, but without a warrantyor government interference.
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Old 05-28-2011, 10:17 PM   #78
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It's not been done because the Z28 became the ZL1 most likely when word of the Boss came out. I'm sure they figured like we all have GT500 = ZL1, Boss = Z28. Which makes me and others believe the Z28 will happen for the Gen5. If you want a NA Z28 like the rest of us get on the bandwagon.
We are trying to make sense of the business plan for the Z28 by using existing components that will make it competative in its capabilities as well as competitively priced.
If you look at the thread the math shows even with the LS7 it's competitive. Just think of the sales/marketableness of a 427 Z28!

I believe FBodFather's comments were some while ago, before the Z28 became a ZL1.

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Old 05-28-2011, 10:26 PM   #79
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Pete
This thread is trying to be more realistic in that we are not pressing the weight issue. It weighs what it weighs. We are trying to make the point that it is doable. Even with available parts. I'd love to hear your take on what has been discussed. I'd also like to see some of your parts used.
Interesting that the Government would be behind not being able to use the coilovers. They must save us from ourselves.
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Old 05-29-2011, 12:02 AM   #80
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I am all over a Z28 from existing components. Using the existing drive-line eliminates the cost of a new drive-line validation. We carry over the brakes from the ZL1. Thinner glass is not a high cost development project. It just isn't as quiet. Leaving out the sound insulation is straight forward. Modern electric windows are not all that heavy. My guess is crank vs. electric is almost a wash. We drop all the toaster cover stuff. No engine cover. No sound insulation over the plenum. You can see where I am going with this. A stripped down version of the 5h Gen is prohibitively expensive to build, BUT there are areas we can address weight reduction and still be production / cost friendly.

Instead of changing the engine, change the tranny and rear end gearing. The SS exhaust is reasonably free flowing, but can we get more power and less weight out of a different exhaust system? My answer is yes. There are plenty of engineers here who can do the math better than I, but my inner car guy knows that the more weight we save the less power we need. I would bet dollars to donuts the engineers at GM can get us another 50 HP out of the LS3 with revised intake, exhaust and tune. Louder, lighter and faster. We continue down the weight route with two piece rotors. They are available through GMPP as Brembo CTS-V rotors. Lighter wheels are a must, but a validation issue.

GM has already made a running change with the sub-frame bushes to improve IRS stability. Maybe we can get them to continue down that road or in my perfect world use Pedders bushes. GM is certainly capable of doing bigger sways and we do want to see the ZL1 lower arms in our Z28. Leave the MR to the Zl1 and let Pedders supply a fixed height set of independent bound and rebound adjustable fixed height coilovers.

We keep the car as clean, light and as simple as possible and priced above the SS and below the ZL1.

If I have missed the point of this thread, please continue to set me straight. I am on you side. I want a Z28 too!
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Old 05-29-2011, 09:26 AM   #81
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GM has already made a running change with the sub-frame bushes to improve IRS stability. Maybe we can get them to continue down that road or in my perfect world use Pedders bushes.

Pete, what changes did they make to the sub frame bushings?
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Old 05-29-2011, 12:12 PM   #82
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I think we can all agree the ZL1 driveline/brake/wheel/tire pieces (excluding MR) will transfer to a Z/28 nicely...same amount of "work" and co$t...as previously "conceptualized". The BONUS, here, is we've just DECREASED the UNIT COST of the ZL1, as well!

Changing tranny/gears alone requires re-certification...

Weight-reduction and mods to the current structure requires re-crash-testing...

Changes to exhaust are exhausting...and there are noise constraints for OEMs that don't exist for Aftermarket upgrades...if desired...

Therefore, these changes would require as much/more "work" by the Team to be Production-ready...without significantly decreasing power-to-weight...while increasing the co$t of the vehicle. Funny how a 1LE used to give you less...but cost you more... After all, "nothing is for nothing".

Base 1SS = 3850. 426 hp (as validated). P/W = 9.03lb/hp Now, take out 150 lb...

Z/28 (LS3) = 3700/426hp = *8.69 lb/hp $39,900 (equipped as per post above)

Z/28 (LS3 + 50hp [which doesn't exist currently] = 3700/475hp = 7.79 lb/hp AT WHAT CO$T? Close-to-LS7 money, is my bet, by the time all is said and done...in these volumes.

Z/28 (LS7) = 3850/500hp = *7.70 lb/hp Low-Mid $40s (as per Number 3, earlier)

ZL1 (LSA) = 4000+/556 = 7.19 lb/hp $50Gs+

BOSS = 3600/440 = 8.18 lb/hp Mid-$40s

Raise your hand if, to lose *ONE POUND PER HORSEPOWER*, you'd pay $5Gs extra.

BTW, by the NAIAS, next January, all '12 ZL1s will be spoken for. What a GREAT time/place to announce "the return of the legendary Z/28...NOW taking orders!", for April/May '12 delivery...

Last edited by LOWDOWN; 05-29-2011 at 12:49 PM.
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Old 05-29-2011, 12:45 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by LOWDOWN View Post
Changing tranny/gears requires re-certification...

Weight-reduction and mods to the current structure requires re-crash-testing...

Changes to exhaust are exhausting...and there are noise constraints for OEMs that don't exist for Aftermarket upgrades...if desired...

Therefore, these changes would require as much/more "work" by the Team to be Production-ready...without significantly decreasing power-to-weight...while increasing the co$t of the vehicle. Funny how a 1LE used to give you less...but cost you more... After all, "nothing is for nothing".

Base 1SS = 3850. 426 hp (as validated). P/W = 9.03lb/hp Now, take out 150 lb...

Z/28 (LS3) = 3700/426hp = 8.69 lb/hp $39,900 (equipped as per post above)

Z/28 (LS7) = 3850/500hp = 7.70 lb/hp [I]Low-Mid $40s (as per Number 3, earlier)

ZL1 (LSA) = 4000+/556 = 7.19 lb/hp $50Gs+

BOSS = 3600/440 = 8.18 lb/hp Mid-$40s

Raise your hand if, to lose ONE POUND PER HORSEPOWER, you'd pay $5Gs.

BTW, by the NAIAS, next January, all '12 ZL1s will be spoken for. What a GREAT time/place to announce "the return of the legendary Z/28...NOW taking orders!", for April/May '12 delivery...
What I am suggesting does not make a single structural change to the 5th Gen. #3 can speak to this, but I don't belive leaving out sound insulation requires crash testing. I am not sure about thinner glass, but again #3 could speak to that. My bet is that it would cost GM less to validate a gear change than to validate the LS7 in the Camaro. Even if it is the same, the price at retail would be significantly lower with a modified set of gears than with the LS7.

GM spent a fortune tuning the current exhaust. The same attention to detail would not apply to a Z28 because the sound insulation would never have been applied or installed. Just let it rip as long as it is decibel legal. Again, this is cost effective for GM and at retail.

I am not sure where weight reduction became sacrosanct. You can reduce weight in a Camaro cost effectively in a production environment. The perfect example is sound insulation. Do not spay it. Do not lay it. Do not install it. Everything will still fit and bolts up. As for other weight reducing components, you are right about the aftermarket. The Z28 would be a great car to use GMMP parts on in a production environment. It could be a proving ground for cost effective limited production vehicle development.

If GM can make the business case for the LS7 in the Z28 I am all for it. If they are willing to do that, then I would ask they also lose weight wherever possible. Lighter glass above the belt-line would do wonders for cornering. Two piece rotors that are a couple of pounds lighter are a HUGE gain at triple digit speeds. As I already wrote, the rotors are available from GMPP by Brembo for the CTS-V. Just like the LS7 is an off the shelf part so are all the GMPP parts.

There would be validation required on the GMPP parts, but that may not be as big a deal as we think. Pedders has done OE validation testing on our coilovers through an independent testing lab. We could make those results available in a Chevy Heartbeat. I think there are ways to do the Z28 lighter, faster and cost effectively. It all comes down to the business case and GM's outlook on future vehicle development.

In my mind, a Z28 is a handling car with a lot of horsepower. What I am getting from this thread is that a Z28 is a lot of horsepower that handles?
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Old 05-29-2011, 12:57 PM   #84
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But Pete, you end up with something more hard core than most folks want to live with on a frequent/daily basis. The GS and Carbon Vettes are still "live-able". The BOSS is "live-able". How much, and what's the RPO code, for the ear plugs?

Ask Number 3 what the total cost is (and TIME involved) to bring an "LS3+" to the RPO table. The LS7 (save wet sump, which is GM parts-specific) is READY.

This is to be a Z/28...not the SSX...which you're welcome to turn YOUR Z/28 into.
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Old 05-29-2011, 01:05 PM   #85
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But Pete, you end up with something more hard core than most folks want to live with on a frequent/daily basis. The GS and Carbon Vettes are still "live-able". The BOSS is "live-able". How much, and what's the RPO code, for the ear plugs?

Ask Number 3 what the total cost is (and TIME involved) to bring an "LS3+" to the RPO table. The LS7 (save wet sump, which is GM parts-specific) is READY.

This is to be a Z/28...not the SSX...which you're welcome to turn YOUR Z/28 into.
So the distinction between the ZL1 and the Z28 would be LS7 and Pedders fixed height Supercar coilovers?

Btw, I'll tweak my ZL1 the day I get it.
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