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Old 06-12-2011, 06:43 PM   #351
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I'd like the DI. If we can get it in a 5Gen, however the LS7 is ready now. I just want a 5Gen Z28!
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Old 06-12-2011, 11:09 PM   #352
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I'd like the DI. If we can get it in a 5Gen, however the LS7 is ready now. I just want a 5Gen Z28!


I wanted it yesterday!
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Old 06-13-2011, 11:34 AM   #353
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The only down side to DI is the lack of tuning software. Bosch has it locked down tight. The leads to my question.

If the Z28 comes with DI will it help or hurt sales?
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Old 06-13-2011, 11:50 AM   #354
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Hmmm, what if the 5th gen did possibly get a GenV?

Just sayin'. :emoticon7:
Hmm, where have I heard this before.....

I have brought this up many times, and for the most part still believe its a very likely option. A base line LS7 Z28 would most likely cost us around 45-48 msrp, but a GenV V8 could have us at 38-40 msrp. Now this is if the SS also gets the GenV V8 with a different tune. When the launch of the GenV V8 comes along I see 4 different versions released at one time, a replacement for the LS9 (also the LSA both with same internals this time just a different Supercharger), a hand built replacement for the LS7, a replacement for the LS3 for truck and SS duty, and another for the Z28 and Corvette GS.
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Old 06-13-2011, 11:52 AM   #355
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The only down side to DI is the lack of tuning software. Bosch has it locked down tight. The leads to my question.

If the Z28 comes with DI will it help or hurt sales?
yes the V6 people are slowing working out the tunning. so hopefully what they are learning can be applied in this situation.
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Old 06-13-2011, 01:47 PM   #356
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Now that the ZL1 will be available with an Automatic, the differentiation for the Zee28 is suddenly clearer...STICK ONLY...as one would expect for an enthusiast-centered, track-likely canyon carver. I'm not saying this makes the ZL1 any less of a "halo", and it surely adds to its potential sales. But the Zee, for me, is now in a different Class...just as the GT500 (600?) is to the BOSS.

With this newfound "focus" for the Zee, the debate concerning (LT1, is it?)Gen-5 SBC vs. LS7 (the only REAL alternatives?!) is one of "intent" and "timing" and "viability". And the predication for this debate, or Business Case (call it what you will), would center around WHEN...

When is it conceiveable for GM to foist this much-needed and -anticipated version? How quickly can the Team ready, for Production, the Zee? Or, rather, how quickly DO THEY WARRANT its necessity, at whatever risk they assign its potential sales against the ZL1's numbers?

If there is concern about folks "settling" for a Zee at the expense of the ZL1, it would frankly put the ENTIRE Program at risk. Why? 'Cause the clock is ticking on the Gen-5 platform. 'Cause the costs incurred for the Gen-5 Camaro Zee Program have to be amortized over "X" units, and the sooner the Program launches, the easier the costs will be to recover, and true profit$ will be realized, and the lower the end MSRP is likely to be and, therefore, the ultimate sales success for the Program...

That scenario, in and of itself, means the Gen-5 engine is likely at best a '14-MY intro (somewhere early-'13 calendar year or so). Is that long enough to recoup? Me thinks NOT...not with Alfie due shortly thereafter, by MY '15...

Which brings us four-square back to our good ol' friend, the LS7...available NOW...certifiable/validatable NOW...or anytime the Team deems "appropriate". Complete with ZL1 driveline components which are undergoing this process as we speak.

Production is now slated to commence 1st 1/4 '12 as MY '12s, for the ZL1:

1) How many of those potential folks would really rally 'round a Zee, instead? At $10K less for admittedly less content, but no less road course excitement, and just about as many grins on the daily commute?

2) Or, would our Zee-lusting brothers and sisters simply avoid a ZL1, anyway, but be willing to open a payment account for the Zee, instead?

That was Ford's conundrum, and we know how that turned out.

Will GM do something for US?

Stay tuned...

EDIT:

An historical "been there-done that" occurs to me... Fred Gibb, with Dick Harrell, "blindly" ordered the first 50 Gen-One ZL1s, with Vince Piggins' assurances that the "price would be right"...and then the "beancounters" (not for the first time, and certainly not for the last...) made Vince, and Gibb, and 19 other orderers PAY...150% more for the COPO 9560 Package than the basic Camaro chassis retailed for. If you take a Base LS Camaro, and factor in 150%...BANG ON what a loaded ZL1 will be, again. Maybe THAT'S why the late name change...

As to the likelihood of a Zee...the clock IS ticking...
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Old 06-13-2011, 02:20 PM   #357
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You are right, the clock is ticking.
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Old 06-13-2011, 03:12 PM   #358
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LS7 is going to stop being mass produced as soon as the next gen Corvette comes

I thought people wanted a lightweight Z28?

The LS7 is pretty heavy, and it's more expensive to produce than it's worth.
I'm less concerned with weight than I am with power. Case and point Mustangs are too light to stick to the pavement with the power they have.
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Old 06-13-2011, 03:27 PM   #359
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It isn't so much that the Mustang is light, it is the solid rear with a three arm setup. My company has done extensive work on both. We have the Mustang and Camaro running in virtually a dead heat. I say virtually because on the road course the Camaro was 3 tenths of a second faster. Keep in mind that the Mustang out brakes and out accelerated the Camaro. The Camaro had dyno number of 568 RWHP and the Mustang only 449. Weight is important, but the heavier Camaro IRS allowed the Camaro to carry more speed into and out of the turns.

You can read about both here. http://www.peddersusa.com/news/1/article21

The picture is at speed and I am 'hiding' in the mustang.

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Old 06-13-2011, 03:38 PM   #360
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It isn't so much that the Mustang is light, it is the solid rear with a three arm setup. My company has done extensive work on both. We have the Mustang and Camaro running in virtually a dead heat. I say virtually because on the road course the Camaro was 3 tenths of a second faster. Keep in mind that the Mustang out brakes and out accelerated the Camaro. The Camaro had dyno number of 568 RWHP and the Mustang only 449. Weight is important, but the heavier Camaro IRS allowed the Camaro to carry more speed into and out of the turns.

You can read about both here. http://www.peddersusa.com/news/1/article21

The picture is at speed and I am 'hiding' in the mustang.

Wasn't the Camaro making substantially less power when it was actually on the track compared to when it was tested on the rollers?
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Old 06-13-2011, 03:45 PM   #361
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It isn't so much that the Mustang is light, it is the solid rear with a three arm setup. My company has done extensive work on both. We have the Mustang and Camaro running in virtually a dead heat. I say virtually because on the road course the Camaro was 3 tenths of a second faster. Keep in mind that the Mustang out brakes and out accelerated the Camaro. The Camaro had dyno number of 568 RWHP and the Mustang only 449. Weight is important, but the heavier Camaro IRS allowed the Camaro to carry more speed into and out of the turns.

You can read about both here. http://www.peddersusa.com/news/1/article21

The picture is at speed and I am 'hiding' in the mustang.

Sort of the point I was trying to make. I think the weight of the Camaro is good, planting it to the ground a little better and more TQ is what it needs to get moving. Personally, I like the idea the vehicle has some real metal, and I'm not sitting in a piece of fiberglass with a 8cyl. engine bolted on.
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Old 06-13-2011, 03:46 PM   #362
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Wasn't the Camaro making substantially less power when it was actually on the track compared to when it was tested on the rollers?
The GM computer is smarter than the Ford computer making it more sensitive to heat soak. How much less is hard to say, but yes the power numbers would have been down. We ran into the issue in our first track session two years ago. Working with my 'friends' we made quite a few changes in our approach to thermal management. In the shootout with the Mustang we did not see any change in timing due to the heat so the changes were effective. That said, the Camaro did not feel as strong in the heat no matter what the computer told us.

Our track experience is why I had asked for a number of things in my design for the Z28. Here is a short list.

Exhaust manifolds coated inside and out
No sound insulation above the plenum
No hood blanket
Ambient Air Induction
Heat extractors in the hood
Oil cooler
PS cooler

A cool LS series engine is a happy LS series engine
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Old 06-13-2011, 03:52 PM   #363
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Sort of the point I was trying to make. I think the weight of the Camaro is good, planting it to the ground a little better and more TQ is what it needs to get moving. Personally, I like the idea the vehicle has some real metal, and I'm not sitting in a piece of fiberglass with a 8cyl. engine bolted on.
We hit the track at 4187 including driver and fuel in the Camaro. The Mustang was almost 300 pounds lighter. If we could shave 100 pounds out of the Camaro...don't forget mine was S/C.

One of the mistakes I made in the setup of our Camaro was running an aftermarket hood. This time I want a factory hood with heat extractors. It will easily be 15 pounds lighter or more. Another 20 or 30 pounds of sound deadening out of the Z28. Another few pounds with the Brembo two piece rotors. Titanium exhaust. We are getting really close to where I would like to be. The N/A LS7.

How soon can they build it?
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Old 06-13-2011, 04:13 PM   #364
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How soon can they build it?
"Tomorrow"...we're just not quite sure how many "grains of sand" are in the "GM Hourglass"...

Again, we see a reappearance of the "LS7 is heavy" urban legend... Converted to wet-sump, as per crash-testing (no tank) AND weight avoidance, the LS3 in any guise and the LS7 are within a handful of pounds, dressed but "naked" as requested by Pete. With judicious application (or rather lack of) "stuff 'n doodads", a 1SS (with LS interior) + LS7 + HD (ZL1-derived) Driveline - MR +FE4 + ZL1 Wheels/Tires/Exhaust = <1SS Curb Weight. And the LS7's life expectancy is equivalent, roughly, to the Gen-5 Camaro. Here's a recipe to ensure that...

At that weight, with cat-like reflexes, the arrow missing from the Camaro quiver...isn't...at a premium well below a ZL1, but equally above a Base 2SS...
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Old 06-13-2011, 05:45 PM   #365
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^that equals exactly $42,900. SOLD!
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Old 06-13-2011, 06:06 PM   #366
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"Tomorrow"...we're just not quite sure how many "grains of sand" are in the "GM Hourglass"...

Again, we see a reappearance of the "LS7 is heavy" urban legend... Converted to wet-sump, as per crash-testing (no tank) AND weight avoidance, the LS3 in any guise and the LS7 are within a handful of pounds, dressed but "naked" as requested by Pete. With judicious application (or rather lack of) "stuff 'n doodads", a 1SS (with LS interior) + LS7 + HD (ZL1-derived) Driveline - MR +FE4 + ZL1 Wheels/Tires/Exhaust = <1SS Curb Weight. And the LS7's life expectancy is equivalent, roughly, to the Gen-5 Camaro. Here's a recipe to ensure that...

At that weight, with cat-like reflexes, the arrow missing from the Camaro quiver...isn't...at a premium well below a ZL1, but equally above a Base 2SS...
I was with you right up to that RED BOLDED text. How do you get that what you've spec'ed out is less than a 1SS in Curb Weight? A heavy duty drive train (ZL1) and heavy duty chassis bits (FE4) will weigh more. And what is in the 1SS interior that isn't in an LS interior that would offer an offset?

ANNNNNNNND where are my damn brakes?????? I want the ZL1 brakes.

Hope you know I am having fun


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^that equals exactly $42,900. SOLD!
Wait...............holy huh? How much for that drivetrain, not even counting the LS7, are you putting in your financial model?

And I still want those dang gosh darn brakes.
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Old 06-13-2011, 06:31 PM   #367
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I was with you right up to that RED BOLDED text. How do you get that what you've spec'ed out is less than a 1SS in Curb Weight? A heavy duty drive train (ZL1) and heavy duty chassis bits (FE4) will weigh more. And what is in the 1SS interior that isn't in an LS interior that would offer an offset?

ANNNNNNNND where are my damn brakes?????? I want the ZL1 brakes.

Hope you know I am having fun

Wait...............holy huh? How much for that drivetrain, not even counting the LS7, are you putting in your financial model?

And I still want those dang gosh darn brakes.

Number 3, pleasepleaseplease forgive the slight-of-digit in NOT including the MANDATORY brakes...pretty please!! You ARE "pretty", aren't you? Pretty dang gosh happy IF/WHEN the fine fashionably-late-but-nonetheless-great Zee arrives...

As to LS Trim...no 6-way seat, and a few other minor/trivial details. When combined with option code JP0...as in JusticePeteZero extra anything that is not 100% protein-enriched, carb-free on the assemblyline menu...we can save enough avoir du pois to offset said "necessities of Zee"...with ZEAL!

BTW, how much would that smaller gizzoline tank, ya mentioned a month or so ago, add to the ridiculously low MSRP of ONLY $44,995?
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Old 06-13-2011, 08:49 PM   #368
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Number 3, pleasepleaseplease forgive the slight-of-digit in NOT including the MANDATORY brakes...pretty please!! You ARE "pretty", aren't you? Pretty dang gosh happy IF/WHEN the fine fashionably-late-but-nonetheless-great Zee arrives...

As to LS Trim...no 6-way seat, and a few other minor/trivial details. When combined with option code JP0...as in JusticePeteZero extra anything that is not 100% protein-enriched, carb-free on the assemblyline menu...we can save enough avoir du pois to offset said "necessities of Zee"...with ZEAL!

BTW, how much would that smaller gizzoline tank, ya mentioned a month or so ago, add to the ridiculously low MSRP of ONLY $44,995?
HA! I knew you just forgot the brakes, a KEY element to any track intentioned Camaro.

And the gas tank issue isn't so much the piece price, just the tooling and re-validation. Do-able, and not impossible.

Now if you want to impact dry weight or curb weight is the issue. Dry, tank size being smaller would be proportionately less weight. But the tank itself isn't that heavy. The kicker would be Curb Weight, which if I recall is a half tank?? It could be full but for some reason I remember 1/2 tank. But in the end any driver can control that by simply never filling over 1/2 tank and save 9 gallons or about 70 pounds.

I forgot all about the LS manual seat. That would be a few pounds, but not nearly enough to offset the ZL1 drivetrain upgrades.

And I'm not sure we want to use the Adkins Diet to get a lean Z28, LOL
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Old 06-14-2011, 10:02 AM   #369
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Something is afoot. Stay tuned.
I know what you mean.


Now to those who want a smaller gas tank in the Z28, while it will save weight it will cost more. Retooling cost money even more when its not the standard for the rest of the lineup.

Now retooling for somethings is needed and would be nice across the board, such as the geometry of the rear suspension the help put the power to the ground better.
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Old 06-14-2011, 11:41 AM   #370
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I forgot all about the LS manual seat. That would be a few pounds, but not nearly enough to offset the ZL1 drivetrain upgrades.

And I'm not sure we want to use the Adkins Diet to get a lean Z28, LOL
The "diet" can achieve, just as with physiology, gains from ounces here, and the odd pound there. Mastic/matting/seam-sealer/sound deadener, here 'n there, judiciously applied (or NOT as the case may be) will not be greatly missed by those interested in listening to a "mechanical symphony" as opposed to a "CadMaro catacomb"... Not that NVH can be completely ignored, but those "in the know" can discern where a proper compromise can occur, and weight savings achieved.

IF you pull 50-or-so pounds out of the basic 1SS structure (forgetting things like the obligatory embroidered floormats!), use a "wet" LS7 (bonnetless, unless mandatory for the "drive-by"), add forged wheels (and 19s weigh less than 20s...) and 180- or 200-rated Summer-onlys with a can of StopLeak in the trunk, you now can add the HD Tremec/Diff-3.73 as per CTS-V/Axles/Brakes(2-piece rotors?) and Bars/Bushings/Springs @ or a bit under the '12 1SS's listed Curb of 3849 lb.

Combined with a 505 hp rating, and an arguable Curb of 3825-3850, you have a 7.60 +/- lb/hp scalpel. BUT, @ 470 ft-lb. of TORQUE, your pounds per ft-lb. = 8.16. So, you ask? Some comparisons:

BOSS - 3631 lb/380 = 9.56!

GT500 - 3820 lb/510 = 7.49

ZL1 - 4050 lb (?)/551 (CTS-V) = 7.35

Excuse this example which uses, of all things, a NEON...but the facts are the facts: http://www.allpar.com/eek/hp-vs-torque.html

Anyone who road races (Pete, where are you?) can verify corner-exit TORQUE is a pretty good way to enhance lap times!! A properly-slimmed/trimmed/packaged Zee28 with an LS7 could have a 1.40 lb/ft-lb. ADVANTAGE over a BOSS...8.16 vs. 9.56...folks, that's HUGE!

"All other things being equal"...which means BOSS-matching-or-better tires, and BOSS-beating IRS/suspension...and roughly-equal weight distribution, fore/aft.

And, as you can see, the ZL1's LSA will carry (no pun...) an advantage in this regard, as well, over the Shelby GT (pick-a-number).

The differential between the ZL1 and Zee28 is only .80, still big, but that extra 200 lb. on the nose, even with MR, leaves a lot of room for enhanced manouverability...IMVHO.

In "usual" power-to-weight terms, the Zee can also trounce the not-so-BOSS:

3840 lb/505 hp = 7.60 lb/hp - Zee28

3631 lb/444 hp = 8.18 lb/hp - not-so-BOSS

$44,995, done.

Any questions?!

I think we have the "answer"...

Too bad Mark Donohue wasn't around to "verify"...but we'll take Ron Fellows, in his place, in a White car with Red stripes...

"With BROAD STRIPES on BRIGHT CARS!"
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Old 06-14-2011, 02:49 PM   #371
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wth is a Zee 28?
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Old 06-14-2011, 03:09 PM   #372
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Well, Gibby, since *wink*wink* there is NO such a thing (confirmed) as a Z/28, we're using the American-pronounced version, with complete spelling... We don't wanna get ahead of ourselves...right?! And this way, GM-informed folks can participate with immunity...and impunity...

However, since it may/will be Oshawa-built, perhaps we should defer to the Canadian-pronounced-and-spelt ZED28, instead?

Any other questions?
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Old 06-14-2011, 03:47 PM   #373
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Well, Gibby, since *wink*wink* there is NO such a thing (confirmed) as a Z/28, we're using the American-pronounced version, with complete spelling... We don't wanna get ahead of ourselves...right?! And this way, GM-informed folks can participate with immunity...and impunity...

However, since it may/will be Oshawa-built, perhaps we should defer to the Canadian-pronounced-and-spelt ZED28, instead?

Any other questions?


What he said!! AY!!
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Old 06-14-2011, 04:18 PM   #374
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Zed28 hmm, could we build...
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Old 06-15-2011, 03:34 PM   #375
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Something occurred to me while doing some "research". At the risk of not using the ZL1 wheels/tires in favor of using 19s instead, a comparable-width 19" forged wheel would save 1 or 2 lb. per rim vs. 20s. And the corresponding-sized 19" tires would also save a pound or two per tire vs. a 20". 10-15 additional lb. savings, but at the expen$e of validating new rims...while reducing crucial unsprung weight.

The end cost to GM, 19s vs. 20s, would likely be a draw on the Zee, but might save some on the cost of the ZL1 by greater piece-cost savings if the Zee used its 20s.

The 19's shorter tire diameters, in and of themselves, would also slightly lower the car, enhancing handling through lower cg.

Number 3, what say you?
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700 hp z/28 in 2014, the greatest camaro

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