Camaro5 Chevy Camaro Forum / Camaro ZL1, SS and V6 Forums - Camaro5.com
 
SNL Performance
Go Back   Camaro5 Chevy Camaro Forum / Camaro ZL1, SS and V6 Forums - Camaro5.com > Engine | Drivetrain | Powertrain Technical Discussions > Forced Induction - V6

Forced Induction - V6 V6 Supercharger, turbo, nitrous discussions

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 07-09-2011, 04:45 PM   #1
mpiper
 
mpiper's Avatar
 
Drives: 2011 Black 1LT RS
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Texas
Posts: 496
Nitrous, Methanol, continuous cooling

Just a theoretical question for everyone. First, the background of my question.

The big benefit for Nitrous is the cooling/denser charge of air&fuel, leading to more power. But this is a short term technique. You don't run a car on Nitrous 100% of the time.

TC and SC, on the other hand, run 100% of the time. They force more air&fuel into the engine, but in a sustainable fashion. They also are 10X more expensive.

Methanol injection is a technique that's new to me, but I understand it basically cools the intake charge. Not sure if this has any horsepower increase, or if its ONLY a detonation prevention tool. But I know when people want to maximize their output, they add Methanol to Forced Induction

So, suppose someone wanted to run a cooler and/or denser charge 100% of the time, but not necessarily at the level of TC or SC? What if someone just wanted to gain say, 50 HP? Would there be a theoretical way of using methanol as a much safer alternative to Nitrous? Again, I have no idea if Meth gives ANY gain in and of itself. This is just a curiosity question. Just idle curiosity I thought I'd pass to the group at large to see what you thought.

Thoughts?
__________________
Midnight => 2011 1LT/RS, A6, Roto-Fab CAI & W/W Relocate, MPD Hood, 25%/18% Carbon Tint
See my build journal here.
mpiper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-10-2011, 06:13 AM   #2
scrming
Red Brick of Vengeance!
 
scrming's Avatar
 
Drives: 12 Second Brick
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: at my pulpit
Posts: 7,720
You can run meth on your car but to really use it you will need a tune. Adding meth also increases the octane rating of your gas, so to increase your power you will also need to increase your timing. You will seem some HP gain, just not sure how much... Don't think you'll get 50 HP out of it..
scrming is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-10-2011, 06:28 AM   #3
CC Performance
Account Suspended
 
Drives: 99 Camaro SS, 79 z28, 70 GTX
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: ST Helens, OR
Posts: 1,777
Go over to the Corvett forum this has been researched and done already.. look up user name spinmonster
CC Performance is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-2011, 10:43 AM   #4
Graham@N
 
Drives: Pontiac Firebird
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Waco, TX
Posts: 154
Quote:
Originally Posted by mpiper View Post
Just a theoretical question for everyone. First, the background of my question.

The big benefit for Nitrous is the cooling/denser charge of air&fuel, leading to more power. But this is a short term technique. You don't run a car on Nitrous 100% of the time.

TC and SC, on the other hand, run 100% of the time. They force more air&fuel into the engine, but in a sustainable fashion. They also are 10X more expensive.

Methanol injection is a technique that's new to me, but I understand it basically cools the intake charge. Not sure if this has any horsepower increase, or if its ONLY a detonation prevention tool. But I know when people want to maximize their output, they add Methanol to Forced Induction

So, suppose someone wanted to run a cooler and/or denser charge 100% of the time, but not necessarily at the level of TC or SC? What if someone just wanted to gain say, 50 HP? Would there be a theoretical way of using methanol as a much safer alternative to Nitrous? Again, I have no idea if Meth gives ANY gain in and of itself. This is just a curiosity question. Just idle curiosity I thought I'd pass to the group at large to see what you thought.

Thoughts?
Methanol can not be added with out tuning since it is a fuel. It is not a power adder however. The increase in power will really come from the ability to add timing via the octane increase. Nothing like the gains of nitrous. Also you said "much safer" curious in what sense and why you think that? Might be able to get some good discussion going.



Quote:
Originally Posted by scrming View Post
You can run meth on your car but to really use it you will need a tune. Adding meth also increases the octane rating of your gas, so to increase your power you will also need to increase your timing. You will seem some HP gain, just not sure how much... Don't think you'll get 50 HP out of it..
Agreed.
Graham@N is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-2011, 04:53 PM   #5
mpiper
 
mpiper's Avatar
 
Drives: 2011 Black 1LT RS
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Texas
Posts: 496
Quote:
Originally Posted by Graham@Nitrousoutlet View Post
Methanol can not be added with out tuning since it is a fuel. It is not a power adder however. The increase in power will really come from the ability to add timing via the octane increase. Nothing like the gains of nitrous. Also you said "much safer" curious in what sense and why you think that? Might be able to get some good discussion going.
Well, this is a new topic for me. So forgive any errors in advance. Here's my archair quarterback thoughts:
1. Cooling intake air means denser charge = more power.
2. Methanol is a fuel, so it ofsets the additional air with the extra fuel = not going lean.
3. Cooler charge means more timing advance = more power
4. Methanol is NOT as high pressure as Nitrous, so it's safer to run 100% of the time, which can't be run 100% (even if it were legal).

That was the basis for my question. Realistically, I would guess running methanol would give maybe 20 HP, which is really just the HP lost due to heat soak combined with a few extra from the extra air and Fuel. But I figured "why not" and opened up the question to the group.

CC,
I haven't checked out the source you listed, but I will this evening. Anything relevant, I'll post here. Uhm, which corvette forum??

By the way, Snow performance also has a Nitro booster that they CLAIM adds 30 to 50 HP on top of the methanol. But the amounts are 3 to 5 bottles per reseviour fill. That's $100 per pop (3 X $31), so not cost effective for 100% use. But it seems an option for maybe a last bit tweak for a track day?? Meh, just thought I'd toss it into the conversation as well.
__________________
Midnight => 2011 1LT/RS, A6, Roto-Fab CAI & W/W Relocate, MPD Hood, 25%/18% Carbon Tint
See my build journal here.

Last edited by mpiper; 07-11-2011 at 04:54 PM. Reason: Can't locate the forum in question
mpiper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-2011, 04:56 PM   #6
mpiper
 
mpiper's Avatar
 
Drives: 2011 Black 1LT RS
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Texas
Posts: 496
Oh, found the forum. Corvetteforum dot com. Now for some after-work reading.
__________________
Midnight => 2011 1LT/RS, A6, Roto-Fab CAI & W/W Relocate, MPD Hood, 25%/18% Carbon Tint
See my build journal here.
mpiper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-2011, 05:01 PM   #7
DietCoke
Slow Turtle
 
DietCoke's Avatar
 
Drives: 2011 1SS
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Richmond Hill, GA
Posts: 1,120
Send a message via AIM to DietCoke
Quote:
Originally Posted by mpiper View Post
1. Cooling intake air means denser charge = more power.
Sure

Quote:
Originally Posted by mpiper View Post
2. Methanol is a fuel, so it ofsets the additional air with the extra fuel = not going lean.
There is no additional air, unless you think methanol is going to magically create some.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mpiper View Post
3. Cooler charge means more timing advance = more power
MAYBE if you were dyno tuned around it, in a super hot climate. For 98% of people, it would be zero difference, as ambient air generally isn't very hot compared to compressed air.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mpiper View Post
4. Methanol is NOT as high pressure as Nitrous, so it's safer to run 100% of the time, which can't be run 100% (even if it were legal).
Methanol isn't pressurized at all, it's a liquid and has to be pumped...
Methanol is flammable, nitrous is not.
You also made a double negative in your sentence but I'm going to assume you meant to say it's safer to run 100% of the time and nitrous isn't, in which case it still wouldn't make any sense. 100% of wide open throttle maybe? How is that any different then nitrous? Both will run out (methanol tank will last longer)

Quote:
Originally Posted by mpiper View Post
By the way, Snow performance also has a Nitro booster that they CLAIM adds 30 to 50 HP on top of the methanol. But the amounts are 3 to 5 bottles per reseviour fill. That's $100 per pop (3 X $31), so not cost effective for 100% use. But it seems an option for maybe a last bit tweak for a track day?? Meh, just thought I'd toss it into the conversation as well.
I don't even know where to start here. Nitromethane has no business anywhere near a street car. (and again, tuning issues required to support it, volatility, shelf stability, hygroscopic tendency)





This is a pointless mod on a n/a car. Period. You might see 5hp on a HOT (100 degree) day for $600-1000 in parts, labor, and tuning to support it. You can find 5hp a lot cheaper elsewhere without all the baggage and ridiculousness of this idea.
DietCoke is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-2011, 10:37 AM   #8
mpiper
 
mpiper's Avatar
 
Drives: 2011 Black 1LT RS
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Texas
Posts: 496
Wow. DC, try caffeine free for a while. This is a theoretical conversation, not a build log. Voice your opinions, but no need for sarcasm.

Now, to calmly respond :

1. we both agreed on this. Dense charge = more power.

2. But then you disagree about more air? A dense charge, by definition, is a larger amount of air within the same volume of space. As far as the lean part, I know the ECU compensates for AFR, but that's after it has time to register the change. Realize you have to inject the Methanol AFTER the MAF, so I'm not sure how that affects the calculation. So, The extra oxygen is there by definition. It's the lean part I was talking about, because I'm not sure if that might happen or not. And rich is generally safer than lean.

3. I should have clarified better. My bad. I live in Texas. Right now, we have lows of 80 at night and highs between 95 and 105. So heat soak is a VERY common problem. Higher intake temps mean less dense air and lower timing and less power. This is also the LLT V6, which has a knock sensor that adjusts timing based on octane and other factors not available to the LS3 or L99. So yes, cooler charge means more power automatically on the LLT, and especialliy in the temps I have. Of course, yes, a tune would increase that more. But it's not required.

4. Normal atmospheric pressure is still pressurized. Only a vacuum is NOT pressurized. So, it is correct to say methanol is lower pressure than Nitrous. Picky, picky. My point was that a liquid that is pumped is lower pressure than a gas that is sprayed. So we were technically saying the same thing. Anyway, the point (which I did mangle a bit) is that you cannot drive around town with your nitrous tank open and the system activated. However, the methanol system can be turned on 100% of the time every single time you start the car. It is activated similar to Nitrous, so it's not SPRAYING 100% of the time, but it would be available all day, every day, on each and every trip you take.

Now, as far as my comment about the Nitro booster. I just tossed it in for conversation, as I said originally. I wasn't saying we should all run out a get it. Just mentioned it in case someone knew about it from experience. I personally think it's too expensive to be worth the risk. But that doesn't mean we can't talk about it.

Now, as for your LAST comment, See this thread: http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c6-t...lications.html

It does add power. And most CAI or exhausts run $400+ and gain between 5 to 20 HP. So how is this pointless or ridiculous? This was just a conversation about the idea. Besides, this is a conversation about the V6, which has a higher compression than your V8 and a different ECU. So why stop by to be negative and sarcastic? If you don't think it'll work, expound on that as a contributor to a discussion, not a sarcastic commentator.

So, peace? And please add any thoughts you have. we can all be polite and respectul adults even if we disagree.
__________________
Midnight => 2011 1LT/RS, A6, Roto-Fab CAI & W/W Relocate, MPD Hood, 25%/18% Carbon Tint
See my build journal here.
mpiper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-2011, 11:33 AM   #9
SC2150
Account Suspended
 
Drives: 2012 Camaro RS, RX supercharged
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Bradenton, FL
Posts: 6,081
Methanol is a fuel....the extra air required is provided by the tune. Methanol also is an excellent cooler when injected, and most kits run 50/50 methanol and water mix.

On our Alky drag motors the metanol fuel we use (100%) cools extremely well also, Infact just touch a running alky dragsters intake manifold and it will be cool to the touch. It also requires appx 3 times the amount VS gasoline.

Nitrous Oxide is an oxygenator and a power adder (it carries far more qxygen the air alone so it allows for more fuel thus more power).

If you want economical cool IAT temps all the time w/out having to stop and refill a methanol tank every few miles this is the only solution:
http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showth...=99515&page=13
SC2150 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-2011, 12:11 PM   #10
skip_168
idiot-genius
 
skip_168's Avatar
 
Drives: 2011 Camaro LS
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Tampa Bay
Posts: 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by mpiper View Post
Well, this is a new topic for me. So forgive any errors in advance. Here's my archair quarterback thoughts:
1. Cooling intake air means denser charge = more power.
2. Methanol is a fuel, so it ofsets the additional air with the extra fuel = not going lean.
3. Cooler charge means more timing advance = more power
4. Methanol is NOT as high pressure as Nitrous, so it's safer to run 100% of the time, which can't be run 100% (even if it were legal).

That was the basis for my question. Realistically, I would guess running methanol would give maybe 20 HP, which is really just the HP lost due to heat soak combined with a few extra from the extra air and Fuel. But I figured "why not" and opened up the question to the group.
ok, lets get some basics out of the way:

Methanol, the fuel, has an extremely high octane rating, so the racers use it in high compression engines to control pre-ignition. the drawback is its energy density is alot lower than gasoline, so you have to run 3 to 4 times as much fuel to produce the same power..

Nitrous Oxide is an oxydizer. nothing more. you want more power, you must have more oxygen to oxidize, or burn, the fuel. Nitrous dumps a ton of oxygen into the intake air, leaning it out, so you must add more fuel.. usually a bump injector..

a bi-product of methanol is an extremely low boiling point, so the forced induction crowd would inject a small amount into the charge air to absorb some heat & cool the intake charge down.. You could do the same with water, but it would take two to three times as much water to remove the same amount of heat from the charge temp...

more power requires more oxygen, or air. this is the supreme fundamental to creating more power. the more air, the more fuel you can burn. this is the basis for the saying:

there is no replacement for displacement....
skip_168 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-2011, 02:06 PM   #11
mpiper
 
mpiper's Avatar
 
Drives: 2011 Black 1LT RS
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Texas
Posts: 496
Tracy and Skip,

Thanks for the input. Now some quick questions, since the engine in question isn't FI.
1. Tracy, is there a version of the chiller from that thread for non-FI cars?

2. Skip, I get the details you provided, but I'm a bit confused. What is the overall message? Are you for or against the idea? Or saying it only benefits FI? Sorry, just a bit slow today I guess.

Should I post a different version of this question in the regular V6 thread and see what the rest of the crowd say? To avoid confusion, since this isn't technically FI?
__________________
Midnight => 2011 1LT/RS, A6, Roto-Fab CAI & W/W Relocate, MPD Hood, 25%/18% Carbon Tint
See my build journal here.
mpiper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-2011, 03:05 PM   #12
Graham@N
 
Drives: Pontiac Firebird
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Waco, TX
Posts: 154
This is probably the right spot.

I guess a big part of this is the actual goal. On a mild tune, near stock car, the gains are going to very minimal.

If you are looking for gains at the track or while running around, lets talk nitrous.

If you are looking for more of subtle gains to be had at all times, Bolt on's/gears/etc lots of options here.

If you are looking for 50hp+, talk with SC2150 about some FI setups or again lets talk a little nitrous.

I really encourage you to give me a shout or SC2150 if interested. A little knowledge go's a long way toward reaching a goal you have for the car.
Graham@N is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-2011, 08:06 PM   #13
mpiper
 
mpiper's Avatar
 
Drives: 2011 Black 1LT RS
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Texas
Posts: 496
Well, this is basically a result of my irritation with my drop in performance due to summer temperatures. So, while I would like any improvement above stock, I'm really just trying to find a fairly simple way to compensate for heat soak.

Think of it this way, i want better performance for daily use. I'm also thinking about nitrous for the track, but that's a lower priority. If there was a supercharger available, I'd be saving up for that. Of course, if it can ever did become available, i can start saving then. In the meantime, throttle response and removing heat soak are my priority.
__________________
Midnight => 2011 1LT/RS, A6, Roto-Fab CAI & W/W Relocate, MPD Hood, 25%/18% Carbon Tint
See my build journal here.
mpiper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-2011, 08:09 PM   #14
Supercharged SS
Account Suspended
 
Drives: 2010 Camaro
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Sandy Hook, CT
Posts: 12,021
Graham, I need to discuss some thoughts with you soon.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Graham@Nitrousoutlet View Post
This is probably the right spot.

I guess a big part of this is the actual goal. On a mild tune, near stock car, the gains are going to very minimal.

If you are looking for gains at the track or while running around, lets talk nitrous.

If you are looking for more of subtle gains to be had at all times, Bolt on's/gears/etc lots of options here.

If you are looking for 50hp+, talk with SC2150 about some FI setups or again lets talk a little nitrous.

I really encourage you to give me a shout or SC2150 if interested. A little knowledge go's a long way toward reaching a goal you have for the car.
Supercharged SS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-2011, 08:54 PM   #15
SC2150
Account Suspended
 
Drives: 2012 Camaro RS, RX supercharged
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Bradenton, FL
Posts: 6,081
I think the most practical would be to get w/grahm for a small shot of nitrous....available on demand and not expensive. A bottle only used when needed will last quite a while before needing a refill, and there are refill staions in most comunities for around $3 or so a pound. The chiller can be adapted to a NA or FI application, but it is really designed right now for FI.

What your xperiancing (mispelled on purpose) is the negative effects of a high DA (density altitude) and ALL fuel injected/computer controlled (and carbed depending on jetting) motors will loose power as the ehat & humidity rises. Humidity (grams of water in a measured amount of air) has to be burned in the combustion chamber and hot air holds less oxygen so you have 2 things working against optimin power.

You can live w/it or my suggestion is a well designed dry kit from Graham for when you "feel the need".

A good ported throttle body will improve the off idle throttle response and a CNC pattern cut VMax will add power as well. It's an inexpensive mod and that may make you happy as well.

Hope this helpped!
SC2150 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-2011, 09:10 PM   #16
scrming
Red Brick of Vengeance!
 
scrming's Avatar
 
Drives: 12 Second Brick
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: at my pulpit
Posts: 7,720
Quote:
Originally Posted by mpiper View Post
Well, this is basically a result of my irritation with my drop in performance due to summer temperatures. So, while I would like any improvement above stock, I'm really just trying to find a fairly simple way to compensate for heat soak.

Think of it this way, i want better performance for daily use. I'm also thinking about nitrous for the track, but that's a lower priority. If there was a supercharger available, I'd be saving up for that. Of course, if it can ever did become available, i can start saving then. In the meantime, throttle response and removing heat soak are my priority.
Perhaps try doing the IAT relocation....
scrming is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-2011, 09:56 PM   #17
mpiper
 
mpiper's Avatar
 
Drives: 2011 Black 1LT RS
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Texas
Posts: 496
Wow, lots of good info.

Can a dry shot be left activated all the time? I was under the impression that a dry shot wasn't too smart for this engine, since the nitrous would hit the engine before the extra fuel (but then again we're talking a small amount, not a 100 shot). I also thought Nitrous was "technically" for the track only. If this could safely be available during daily driving, I'd be very interested.

Scrming, I'm dying to do the IAT relocate, but don't want to cut the stock wire harness. Last time I checked, there wasn't a plug-and-play kit yet. But once I see one, I'm buying. Regardless of any other upgrades I add.

Is the VMAX throttle body in production yet SC2150? I've been following that thread and plan on doing it. Especially since it helps with the dead spot. But I'm waiting for the first round to get installed and feedback given before I start budgeting.

Lastly, Where can I get info on the chiller? Is there a website or anything? Depending on cost, that might be a nice, unusual solution that can be adapted when a supercharger finally makes its way over to us V6s. Especially since the most likely candidate is a centrifugal style.

We seem to have gone far afield from the original methanol question. So, to raise that again, here's a question: If I get a tune from Trifecta and have him dial in based on the higher octane. Would that combination see more than his current 13 HP increase? This is obviously not in the same category as the E85 conversion, but that netted around 30 HP I think. Would methanol and the tune net around 20?

Here's a potential setup (maybe ):
1. VMAX Throttlebody
2. Trifecta tune
3. Nitrous shot (50-75) (track use only, maybe)
4. Methanol injection
5. IAT relocated to after bend in the intake tube, around 4-6 inches behind meth nozzle.

Thoughts?
__________________
Midnight => 2011 1LT/RS, A6, Roto-Fab CAI & W/W Relocate, MPD Hood, 25%/18% Carbon Tint
See my build journal here.
mpiper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-13-2011, 09:59 AM   #18
bmorecam
Account Suspended
 
Drives: jealous vendors mad!! HAHA!!
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: CYBERGMONSTER@GMAIL.COM
Posts: 3,660
Me and vince over at trifecta basically worked on the same principal with e85 as you would with methanol.. they are both fuel with higher octane level. The main benefit would be to kill detonation or prevent it all together. If you was to do something like this than I would say to go with e85 as it can be alot more efficient if your local area has it at the pump. The benefit on our n/a v6 camaro with stock internal is around 7.5% to the rear wheels at peak over gasoline and this is after maxing out MBT and even tuning out VVT cam phasing to take complete advantage of e85's high octane, but the greater benefit is full torque@3k rpm and off peak power/torque which is alot higher. We worked out some more bugs since my last dyno so I think we should be able to see a little more power/torque on my next dyno session.

Where meth/e85 really shine is with turbo induced enignes. Ask those turbo guys running e85/meth if they will ever go back to gas and they will probably laugh at you lol. The gain is tremendous.
bmorecam is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-13-2011, 10:15 AM   #19
TiE2000
 
TiE2000's Avatar
 
Drives: Cobalt SS/SC
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Denver CO
Posts: 261
Quote:
Originally Posted by bmorecam View Post
Me and vince over at trifecta basically worked on the same principal with e85 as you would with methanol.. they are both fuel with higher octane level. The main benefit would be to kill detonation or prevent it all together. If you was to do something like this than I would say to go with e85 as it can be alot more efficient if your local area has it at the pump. The benefit on our n/a v6 camaro with stock internal is around 7.5% to the rear wheels at peak over gasoline and this is after maxing out MBT and even tuning out VVT cam phasing to take complete advantage of e85's high octane, but the greater benefit is full torque@3k rpm and off peak power/torque which is alot higher. We worked out some more bugs since my last dyno so I think we should be able to see a little more power/torque on my next dyno session.

Where meth/e85 really shine is with turbo induced enignes. Ask those turbo guys running e85/meth if they will ever go back to gas and they will probably laugh at you lol. The gain is tremendous.
1st, I'm loving this thread and it's been subscribed!
2nd, A little off topic as I don't own a Camaro, but I have an 06 SS/SC Cobalt, tuned by Vince at Trifecta. I just purchased a Methanol kit and i'm planning on installing next weekend when my new Header and Downpipe arrive from ZZP. Now my question is directed this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by bmorecam View Post
Where meth/e85 really shine is with turbo induced enignes. Ask those turbo guys running e85/meth if they will ever go back to gas and they will probably laugh at you lol. The gain is tremendous.
I was under the impression that you could not run both e85 and meth together, so I only purchased 60# injectors for my LSJ (supercharged 4banger) as apposed to 80# wich are required to run e85 on my motor. Now, before I go ahead an sell my 60's and get 80's what are the draw backs for running a e85/meth combo if any. My Car is my DD so reliability is a must for me.
TiE2000 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-13-2011, 05:04 PM   #20
mpiper
 
mpiper's Avatar
 
Drives: 2011 Black 1LT RS
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Texas
Posts: 496
Quote:
Originally Posted by bmorecam View Post
Me and vince over at trifecta basically worked on the same principal with e85 as you would with methanol.. they are both fuel with higher octane level. The main benefit would be to kill detonation or prevent it all together. If you was to do something like this than I would say to go with e85 as it can be alot more efficient if your local area has it at the pump. The benefit on our n/a v6 camaro with stock internal is around 7.5% to the rear wheels at peak over gasoline and this is after maxing out MBT and even tuning out VVT cam phasing to take complete advantage of e85's high octane, but the greater benefit is full torque@3k rpm and off peak power/torque which is alot higher. We worked out some more bugs since my last dyno so I think we should be able to see a little more power/torque on my next dyno session.

Where meth/e85 really shine is with turbo induced enignes. Ask those turbo guys running e85/meth if they will ever go back to gas and they will probably laugh at you lol. The gain is tremendous.
Not enough E85 stations close to me, and with this being a DD and rush hour traffic putting me at 15 MPG already, I don't want to drop down even more.

But I have been following your thread closely and it was part of why this hairbrained scheme popped into my head the other day. I'm hoping to see some of your benefits, but still staying on readily available gas. If E85 ever becomes readily available around my house, I may really crunch the numbers to see how the lower cost per gallon versus the lower gas mileage works out and see if it's worth it.

What is your current MPG with this latest tune? (When your not testing the acceleration.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by TiE2000 View Post
1st, I'm loving this thread and it's been subscribed!
2nd, A little off topic as I don't own a Camaro, but I have an 06 SS/SC Cobalt, tuned by Vince at Trifecta. I just purchased a Methanol kit and i'm planning on installing next weekend when my new Header and Downpipe arrive from ZZP. Now my question is directed this:



I was under the impression that you could not run both e85 and meth together, so I only purchased 60# injectors for my LSJ (supercharged 4banger) as apposed to 80# wich are required to run e85 on my motor. Now, before I go ahead an sell my 60's and get 80's what are the draw backs for running a e85/meth combo if any. My Car is my DD so reliability is a must for me.
I'm a newbie on this, but since the Meth/water solution would be injected separately, wouldn't the 60# still be fine? Methanol is a fuel, so it doesn't need more gas, and the extra air from the cooled intake temp wouldn't be that drastic. My guess is that unless the 60# are just barely adequate now, simply adding a meth/water injection system wouldn't force you to change them out. But that's just my guess, coming from a armchair QB, not an experienced engine builder. I'd trust SC2150 over me on this any day.
__________________
Midnight => 2011 1LT/RS, A6, Roto-Fab CAI & W/W Relocate, MPD Hood, 25%/18% Carbon Tint
See my build journal here.
mpiper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-13-2011, 05:45 PM   #21
jeff4946
 
jeff4946's Avatar
 
Drives: 2010 RS 2LT
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: slc, utah
Posts: 623
I'm pretty sure zex makes a universal safe shot kit that adds about 35hp... That would be more econmical and a lot easier to set up. Why would you not go that route if your looking for just a smaller boost?
__________________
K&N Cai, BSR Ported intake, MBRP catback, BBK long tubes, VMax throttle body, 3.73 SS gears, Zex nitrous 125hp shot, window switch, purge,remote bottle opener, bottle heater, Trifecta tune, Hurst short throw, RX catch can, Intake isolator, Ported Intake manifold
jeff4946 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-13-2011, 06:12 PM   #22
SC2150
Account Suspended
 
Drives: 2012 Camaro RS, RX supercharged
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Bradenton, FL
Posts: 6,081
A dry 50-75 kit is plenty safe if sprayed before the MAF so it can measure and add fuel....no spray hits the motor w/out the added fuel. Give Graham a call direct.

The VMax is so close (I wish I could give the date as we just talked to Pete and the final cuts are pretty much finished or near finished. I can post more next Friday).

The chiller threads are on the SC'd cars and we wont be doing the V6 SC kit for at least another 90 days as we have to recoupe some of the costs from the turbo kits.

Lots of good reading here and we can adapt for NA as well.....but I still think the nitrous kit is the most cost effective:

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showth...=99515&page=13
SC2150 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-13-2011, 06:30 PM   #23
mpiper
 
mpiper's Avatar
 
Drives: 2011 Black 1LT RS
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Texas
Posts: 496
I'm all for a nice shot of nitrous. But is it feasible to use as a standard item day in and out. Say, activated so if I want to hit it as I enter an on ramp during lunch. Would I potentially be some to open the bottle in the morning and leave it open until night? I'm all set to use this ,if I can run it 24/7 with the shot activating at around 80% throttle ( since it's just a small shot as a throttle booster, not a full race setup.)
__________________
Midnight => 2011 1LT/RS, A6, Roto-Fab CAI & W/W Relocate, MPD Hood, 25%/18% Carbon Tint
See my build journal here.
mpiper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-13-2011, 06:33 PM   #24
SC2150
Account Suspended
 
Drives: 2012 Camaro RS, RX supercharged
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Bradenton, FL
Posts: 6,081
Just opt for the remote bottle opener and it is a flip of the switch. Arming is also just a switch. Very common and you will be amazed a what a simple 50 shot will do. BUT don't scrimp!!! No cutting corners with spray.

WOT switch, window switch, etc. are all safety options that are a must.
SC2150 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-13-2011, 06:37 PM   #25
Supercharged SS
Account Suspended
 
Drives: 2010 Camaro
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Sandy Hook, CT
Posts: 12,021
So how much more strain will a 50 shot put on the engine? Seeing that I'm already cranking out 18 psi I'm not looking to have it go boom anytime soon! Honestly I should leave the car the f*#k alone. It's goes plenty fast now and when the fall comes I'll see my "9". But that little red guy on my shoulder keeps asking me whats next!!!!! Maybe that little red guy is Ted.
Supercharged SS is offline   Reply With Quote
 
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Nitrous info CamaroSpike23 Forced Induction - V8 62 04-24-2014 09:41 AM
Anybody Spray'n their SS yet - nitrous ? WeeZee Forced Induction - V8 37 12-29-2012 09:56 PM
Clearing up some bad information on nitrous Graham@N Forced Induction - V6 12 07-05-2011 02:13 PM
Nitrous System ?????s PoleCat2SSRS2010 Forced Induction - V8 29 12-08-2010 05:55 PM
Nitrous Info Milk 1027 Wiki 0 08-12-2009 06:26 PM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:57 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.