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Old 07-09-2011, 04:45 PM   #1
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Nitrous, Methanol, continuous cooling

Just a theoretical question for everyone. First, the background of my question.

The big benefit for Nitrous is the cooling/denser charge of air&fuel, leading to more power. But this is a short term technique. You don't run a car on Nitrous 100% of the time.

TC and SC, on the other hand, run 100% of the time. They force more air&fuel into the engine, but in a sustainable fashion. They also are 10X more expensive.

Methanol injection is a technique that's new to me, but I understand it basically cools the intake charge. Not sure if this has any horsepower increase, or if its ONLY a detonation prevention tool. But I know when people want to maximize their output, they add Methanol to Forced Induction

So, suppose someone wanted to run a cooler and/or denser charge 100% of the time, but not necessarily at the level of TC or SC? What if someone just wanted to gain say, 50 HP? Would there be a theoretical way of using methanol as a much safer alternative to Nitrous? Again, I have no idea if Meth gives ANY gain in and of itself. This is just a curiosity question. Just idle curiosity I thought I'd pass to the group at large to see what you thought.

Thoughts?
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Old 07-10-2011, 06:13 AM   #2
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You can run meth on your car but to really use it you will need a tune. Adding meth also increases the octane rating of your gas, so to increase your power you will also need to increase your timing. You will seem some HP gain, just not sure how much... Don't think you'll get 50 HP out of it..
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Old 07-10-2011, 06:28 AM   #3
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Go over to the Corvett forum this has been researched and done already.. look up user name spinmonster
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Old 07-11-2011, 10:43 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mpiper View Post
Just a theoretical question for everyone. First, the background of my question.

The big benefit for Nitrous is the cooling/denser charge of air&fuel, leading to more power. But this is a short term technique. You don't run a car on Nitrous 100% of the time.

TC and SC, on the other hand, run 100% of the time. They force more air&fuel into the engine, but in a sustainable fashion. They also are 10X more expensive.

Methanol injection is a technique that's new to me, but I understand it basically cools the intake charge. Not sure if this has any horsepower increase, or if its ONLY a detonation prevention tool. But I know when people want to maximize their output, they add Methanol to Forced Induction

So, suppose someone wanted to run a cooler and/or denser charge 100% of the time, but not necessarily at the level of TC or SC? What if someone just wanted to gain say, 50 HP? Would there be a theoretical way of using methanol as a much safer alternative to Nitrous? Again, I have no idea if Meth gives ANY gain in and of itself. This is just a curiosity question. Just idle curiosity I thought I'd pass to the group at large to see what you thought.

Thoughts?
Methanol can not be added with out tuning since it is a fuel. It is not a power adder however. The increase in power will really come from the ability to add timing via the octane increase. Nothing like the gains of nitrous. Also you said "much safer" curious in what sense and why you think that? Might be able to get some good discussion going.



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Originally Posted by scrming View Post
You can run meth on your car but to really use it you will need a tune. Adding meth also increases the octane rating of your gas, so to increase your power you will also need to increase your timing. You will seem some HP gain, just not sure how much... Don't think you'll get 50 HP out of it..
Agreed.
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Old 07-11-2011, 04:53 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by Graham@Nitrousoutlet View Post
Methanol can not be added with out tuning since it is a fuel. It is not a power adder however. The increase in power will really come from the ability to add timing via the octane increase. Nothing like the gains of nitrous. Also you said "much safer" curious in what sense and why you think that? Might be able to get some good discussion going.
Well, this is a new topic for me. So forgive any errors in advance. Here's my archair quarterback thoughts:
1. Cooling intake air means denser charge = more power.
2. Methanol is a fuel, so it ofsets the additional air with the extra fuel = not going lean.
3. Cooler charge means more timing advance = more power
4. Methanol is NOT as high pressure as Nitrous, so it's safer to run 100% of the time, which can't be run 100% (even if it were legal).

That was the basis for my question. Realistically, I would guess running methanol would give maybe 20 HP, which is really just the HP lost due to heat soak combined with a few extra from the extra air and Fuel. But I figured "why not" and opened up the question to the group.

CC,
I haven't checked out the source you listed, but I will this evening. Anything relevant, I'll post here. Uhm, which corvette forum??

By the way, Snow performance also has a Nitro booster that they CLAIM adds 30 to 50 HP on top of the methanol. But the amounts are 3 to 5 bottles per reseviour fill. That's $100 per pop (3 X $31), so not cost effective for 100% use. But it seems an option for maybe a last bit tweak for a track day?? Meh, just thought I'd toss it into the conversation as well.
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Last edited by mpiper; 07-11-2011 at 04:54 PM. Reason: Can't locate the forum in question
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Old 07-11-2011, 04:56 PM   #6
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Oh, found the forum. Corvetteforum dot com. Now for some after-work reading.
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Old 07-11-2011, 05:01 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mpiper View Post
1. Cooling intake air means denser charge = more power.
Sure

Quote:
Originally Posted by mpiper View Post
2. Methanol is a fuel, so it ofsets the additional air with the extra fuel = not going lean.
There is no additional air, unless you think methanol is going to magically create some.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mpiper View Post
3. Cooler charge means more timing advance = more power
MAYBE if you were dyno tuned around it, in a super hot climate. For 98% of people, it would be zero difference, as ambient air generally isn't very hot compared to compressed air.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mpiper View Post
4. Methanol is NOT as high pressure as Nitrous, so it's safer to run 100% of the time, which can't be run 100% (even if it were legal).
Methanol isn't pressurized at all, it's a liquid and has to be pumped...
Methanol is flammable, nitrous is not.
You also made a double negative in your sentence but I'm going to assume you meant to say it's safer to run 100% of the time and nitrous isn't, in which case it still wouldn't make any sense. 100% of wide open throttle maybe? How is that any different then nitrous? Both will run out (methanol tank will last longer)

Quote:
Originally Posted by mpiper View Post
By the way, Snow performance also has a Nitro booster that they CLAIM adds 30 to 50 HP on top of the methanol. But the amounts are 3 to 5 bottles per reseviour fill. That's $100 per pop (3 X $31), so not cost effective for 100% use. But it seems an option for maybe a last bit tweak for a track day?? Meh, just thought I'd toss it into the conversation as well.
I don't even know where to start here. Nitromethane has no business anywhere near a street car. (and again, tuning issues required to support it, volatility, shelf stability, hygroscopic tendency)





This is a pointless mod on a n/a car. Period. You might see 5hp on a HOT (100 degree) day for $600-1000 in parts, labor, and tuning to support it. You can find 5hp a lot cheaper elsewhere without all the baggage and ridiculousness of this idea.
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Old 07-12-2011, 10:37 AM   #8
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Wow. DC, try caffeine free for a while. This is a theoretical conversation, not a build log. Voice your opinions, but no need for sarcasm.

Now, to calmly respond :

1. we both agreed on this. Dense charge = more power.

2. But then you disagree about more air? A dense charge, by definition, is a larger amount of air within the same volume of space. As far as the lean part, I know the ECU compensates for AFR, but that's after it has time to register the change. Realize you have to inject the Methanol AFTER the MAF, so I'm not sure how that affects the calculation. So, The extra oxygen is there by definition. It's the lean part I was talking about, because I'm not sure if that might happen or not. And rich is generally safer than lean.

3. I should have clarified better. My bad. I live in Texas. Right now, we have lows of 80 at night and highs between 95 and 105. So heat soak is a VERY common problem. Higher intake temps mean less dense air and lower timing and less power. This is also the LLT V6, which has a knock sensor that adjusts timing based on octane and other factors not available to the LS3 or L99. So yes, cooler charge means more power automatically on the LLT, and especialliy in the temps I have. Of course, yes, a tune would increase that more. But it's not required.

4. Normal atmospheric pressure is still pressurized. Only a vacuum is NOT pressurized. So, it is correct to say methanol is lower pressure than Nitrous. Picky, picky. My point was that a liquid that is pumped is lower pressure than a gas that is sprayed. So we were technically saying the same thing. Anyway, the point (which I did mangle a bit) is that you cannot drive around town with your nitrous tank open and the system activated. However, the methanol system can be turned on 100% of the time every single time you start the car. It is activated similar to Nitrous, so it's not SPRAYING 100% of the time, but it would be available all day, every day, on each and every trip you take.

Now, as far as my comment about the Nitro booster. I just tossed it in for conversation, as I said originally. I wasn't saying we should all run out a get it. Just mentioned it in case someone knew about it from experience. I personally think it's too expensive to be worth the risk. But that doesn't mean we can't talk about it.

Now, as for your LAST comment, See this thread: http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c6-t...lications.html

It does add power. And most CAI or exhausts run $400+ and gain between 5 to 20 HP. So how is this pointless or ridiculous? This was just a conversation about the idea. Besides, this is a conversation about the V6, which has a higher compression than your V8 and a different ECU. So why stop by to be negative and sarcastic? If you don't think it'll work, expound on that as a contributor to a discussion, not a sarcastic commentator.

So, peace? And please add any thoughts you have. we can all be polite and respectul adults even if we disagree.
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Old 07-12-2011, 11:33 AM   #9
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Methanol is a fuel....the extra air required is provided by the tune. Methanol also is an excellent cooler when injected, and most kits run 50/50 methanol and water mix.

On our Alky drag motors the metanol fuel we use (100%) cools extremely well also, Infact just touch a running alky dragsters intake manifold and it will be cool to the touch. It also requires appx 3 times the amount VS gasoline.

Nitrous Oxide is an oxygenator and a power adder (it carries far more qxygen the air alone so it allows for more fuel thus more power).

If you want economical cool IAT temps all the time w/out having to stop and refill a methanol tank every few miles this is the only solution:
http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showth...=99515&page=13
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Old 07-12-2011, 12:11 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mpiper View Post
Well, this is a new topic for me. So forgive any errors in advance. Here's my archair quarterback thoughts:
1. Cooling intake air means denser charge = more power.
2. Methanol is a fuel, so it ofsets the additional air with the extra fuel = not going lean.
3. Cooler charge means more timing advance = more power
4. Methanol is NOT as high pressure as Nitrous, so it's safer to run 100% of the time, which can't be run 100% (even if it were legal).

That was the basis for my question. Realistically, I would guess running methanol would give maybe 20 HP, which is really just the HP lost due to heat soak combined with a few extra from the extra air and Fuel. But I figured "why not" and opened up the question to the group.
ok, lets get some basics out of the way:

Methanol, the fuel, has an extremely high octane rating, so the racers use it in high compression engines to control pre-ignition. the drawback is its energy density is alot lower than gasoline, so you have to run 3 to 4 times as much fuel to produce the same power..

Nitrous Oxide is an oxydizer. nothing more. you want more power, you must have more oxygen to oxidize, or burn, the fuel. Nitrous dumps a ton of oxygen into the intake air, leaning it out, so you must add more fuel.. usually a bump injector..

a bi-product of methanol is an extremely low boiling point, so the forced induction crowd would inject a small amount into the charge air to absorb some heat & cool the intake charge down.. You could do the same with water, but it would take two to three times as much water to remove the same amount of heat from the charge temp...

more power requires more oxygen, or air. this is the supreme fundamental to creating more power. the more air, the more fuel you can burn. this is the basis for the saying:

there is no replacement for displacement....
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Old 07-12-2011, 02:06 PM   #11
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Tracy and Skip,

Thanks for the input. Now some quick questions, since the engine in question isn't FI.
1. Tracy, is there a version of the chiller from that thread for non-FI cars?

2. Skip, I get the details you provided, but I'm a bit confused. What is the overall message? Are you for or against the idea? Or saying it only benefits FI? Sorry, just a bit slow today I guess.

Should I post a different version of this question in the regular V6 thread and see what the rest of the crowd say? To avoid confusion, since this isn't technically FI?
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Old 07-12-2011, 03:05 PM   #12
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This is probably the right spot.

I guess a big part of this is the actual goal. On a mild tune, near stock car, the gains are going to very minimal.

If you are looking for gains at the track or while running around, lets talk nitrous.

If you are looking for more of subtle gains to be had at all times, Bolt on's/gears/etc lots of options here.

If you are looking for 50hp+, talk with SC2150 about some FI setups or again lets talk a little nitrous.

I really encourage you to give me a shout or SC2150 if interested. A little knowledge go's a long way toward reaching a goal you have for the car.
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Old 07-12-2011, 08:06 PM   #13
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Well, this is basically a result of my irritation with my drop in performance due to summer temperatures. So, while I would like any improvement above stock, I'm really just trying to find a fairly simple way to compensate for heat soak.

Think of it this way, i want better performance for daily use. I'm also thinking about nitrous for the track, but that's a lower priority. If there was a supercharger available, I'd be saving up for that. Of course, if it can ever did become available, i can start saving then. In the meantime, throttle response and removing heat soak are my priority.
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Old 07-12-2011, 08:09 PM   #14
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Graham, I need to discuss some thoughts with you soon.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Graham@Nitrousoutlet View Post
This is probably the right spot.

I guess a big part of this is the actual goal. On a mild tune, near stock car, the gains are going to very minimal.

If you are looking for gains at the track or while running around, lets talk nitrous.

If you are looking for more of subtle gains to be had at all times, Bolt on's/gears/etc lots of options here.

If you are looking for 50hp+, talk with SC2150 about some FI setups or again lets talk a little nitrous.

I really encourage you to give me a shout or SC2150 if interested. A little knowledge go's a long way toward reaching a goal you have for the car.
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