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Old 08-15-2011, 11:48 PM   #1
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better handling w/o lowering??

lowering is not an option due to GFX, but after my first auto x, i realize something needs to be done...so would new sway bars, and a strut tower brace be the ticket ( or at least help a lot?) an other ideas, the car seemed to understeer like mad, i spent the day balancing that with the throttle...which makes for a FUN day, but probably not the best way to get around.
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Old 08-16-2011, 12:08 AM   #2
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Sway Bars at a minimum would help most initially, then you can go with end links, chassis brace, strut tower brace, and the list goes on.
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Old 08-16-2011, 08:51 AM   #3
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Pedders Street 1 kit would be a good place to start. It has inserts for the rear subframe bushings and front radius arm bushings.
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Old 08-16-2011, 09:07 AM   #4
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sway bars will be the best bang for you buck, but creating a foundation for you suspension first will make that bang even bigger in the end.
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Old 08-16-2011, 10:34 AM   #5
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For autocross without lowering you wioll want to address the foundational stability of your 5th Gen, add sway bars and get an alignment that is well suited to autocross.

Your IRS mounts to the monocoque with four large rubber bushes. The sub-frame twists within these bushes creating an effect known as rear end step out or rear ends steer. That looseness can only be addressed by adding sub-frame inserts or sub-frame bushes. Adding sway bars before addressing the sub-frame only makes rear end step out worse. In an autocross the last thing you want to happen is the rear wheels fighting the front wheels in transition.

Next would be radius bush inserts to eliminate unwanted caster changes. The OE radius bush is a hydraulically damped bush. It is liquid filled. Under load the front radius arm shift fore to aft creating unwanted caster changes a a vagueness in steering feel. Replacing the soft rubber OE snubber in the radius bush minimises caster changes and improves steering feel. Steering feels is mission critical in autocross.

Sway bars are what we at Pedders consider to be the final tuning element while others see it as a first step. We firmly belive the foundation (sub-frame and radius bushes) are the place to start. For autocross you want to change the sway bar balance from a rather heavy factory understeer towards oversteer. The best way to do that is with a square wheel and tire setup. We like Forgeline 19x10.5 wheels with Bridgestone 305/30/19 RE-11s. The special offsets we use from Forgeline even the front and rear track creating a more balanced vehicle. That doesn't appear to be on your list so we'll move to sway bars. A 27mm front bar with a 32mm rear bar will have you ready for your next autocross.



With or without any new parts you need to get a more autocross friendly alignment. The alignment from the factory is very conservative with more bias towards long tire life than turning corners. The best autocross alignment is so aggressive it will wear your tires rapidly. It is a zero sum game. Long tire life = average cornering. Great cornering = poor tire life.

A key ratio is the relationship of front to rear camber. The ratio that we have had great success with is that the rear negative camber should be one half the front camber. An example would be Front -1 degree with the rear -.5 degree. The more you Toe OUT the front the better the turn in will be. The rear should have just a touch of toe IN. These adjustments are available to you on your 5th Gen in stock form. Caster is fixed in stock form. Caster helps return the steering wheel back on center which is obviously important in autocross. There is no adjustment from the factory for caster. Pedders does have front caster eccentric bolts which use the factory provided brackets for caster adjustment. You can discuss your alignment setting here on line or with your alignment professional using this post as a guide.



Let me know if you have additional questions.
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Old 08-16-2011, 10:08 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caper View Post
lowering is not an option due to GFX, but after my first auto x, i realize something needs to be done...so would new sway bars, and a strut tower brace be the ticket ( or at least help a lot?) an other ideas, the car seemed to understeer like mad, i spent the day balancing that with the throttle...which makes for a FUN day, but probably not the best way to get around.
I added adjustable sways, replaced most of the rear bushings, toe rods, and trailing arms. I passed on the lowering springs. Huge improvement. I also understand you can improve things with more aggressive alignment settings. After all this lighter wheels and tires can make further improvements.
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Old 08-16-2011, 10:14 PM   #7
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Yea, totally just right click & saved that image. Thanks Pete
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Old 08-17-2011, 07:58 AM   #8
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For autoX without lowering I would look at upgrading your sway bars, sub frame bushings, end links, differential bushings, trailing arms, and toe rods. This kind of package will address all of the major short comings of the stock set up. Feel free to shoot me a PM if you have any questions.
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Old 08-17-2011, 09:01 AM   #9
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thanks for the replies guys! will doing the things that fraxum and apex listed affect the car for everyday driving in a negative way? thank you justice, lots of good info there!
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Old 08-17-2011, 09:25 AM   #10
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thanks for the replies guys! will doing the things that fraxum and apex listed affect the car for everyday driving in a negative way? thank you justice, lots of good info there!
As long as you select the appropriate combination of components they will not. Of the parts I recommended the differential bushings are the one part you really need to be careful with. Going too hard can transmit a lot of noise into the cabin in some instances. When you get ready to pull the trigger hit me up and we will put together a package that will set you up for success at the autoX and still be streetable.
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Old 08-17-2011, 10:32 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by stieger View Post
sway bars will be the best bang for you buck, but creating a foundation for you suspension first will make that bang even bigger in the end.
Quote:
Originally Posted by caper View Post
thanks for the replies guys! will doing the things that fraxum and apex listed affect the car for everyday driving in a negative way? thank you justice, lots of good info there!
How it effects the car on your daily drive is dependent on the bush material. Some companies use very hard material, almost hard plastic, for durability and because it is inexpensive as a raw material. The issue with that type of material is squeaking. At Pedders we use a very expensive raw material that is extremely resilient, material that is high in elastopolymers. In durability cycle testing our urethane tests off the charts and it does not squeak.

In late 2010 a Livernois customer had quite a bit of work done on his 5th Gen. The engine work was flawless. The suspension work created a squeak. It was a mix of Pedders and another brand. They and the client were convinced it was the Pedders bits. Livernois transported the car to Orlando (1st Class Customer Service) where I was attending PRI. I made arrangements at a local Firestone store to check out the car. The squeak was from the aftermarket trailing arms. I installed Pedders trailing arm bushes in both ends of the OE arm and replaced the aftermarket trailing arms with the Pedderised OE arms. No more squeaks and the client was pleased with the performance as well. To be clear Livernois went above and beyond taking care of thier customer.

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Different people have different thresholds for various noises in thier cars. Endlinks are a prime example. Some companies feel that spherical equipped endlinkss are well suited to daily drivers. Pedders does not. We think your track ready 5th Gen should be virtually OE quiet. That's why we clearly label any bush or part that would increase cabin noise. We draw a clear distinction from all other Pedders parts. Our endlinks are highly efficient and absolutely guaranteed to be as quiet as an OE endlink.

Where does this lead? You should address your sub-frame and radius bushes first. They are no Brainers. The next bush in order of priority would be the four toe link bushes followed by trailing arm bushes. Overall, the biggest bang for the buck bits would be sub-frame EP1200 (we struggle to keep these on the shelf) and radius bush EP6579 inserts with Solution C sway bars (27mm front and 32mm rear). All Pedders sway bars are packaged with High Efficiency Endlinks Front and Rear. These will be transformational mods for your 5th Gen. Adding more bushes or aftermarket arms will only compliment the foundation you have built.
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Old 08-17-2011, 11:24 AM   #12
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You're going to be a drastic improvement in the balance of the car with sway bars. Our rear sport bar is adjustable so you can fine tune the balance with a quick adjustment of the endlinks. There are some issues that are unique to the Camaro which could use some attention as well, specifically the subframe bushings, trailing arms and toe rods.

Our rear subframe bushings are specifically designed for long term use in Camaro's to provide true sports car handling. Replacing the factory OE subframe bushings solidly mounts the rear subframe to the chassis as has been done with the Corvette for years. You can expect a much more satisfying driving experience when the rear end is actually responding to what the chassis is doing. You can also expect the Noise/Vibration/Harshness levels to remain the same or extremely similar after install as there are still plenty points of noise isolation between the driver and the road before you get to the subframe bushings.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Apex Chase View Post
For autoX without lowering I would look at upgrading your sway bars, sub frame bushings, end links, differential bushings, trailing arms, and toe rods. This kind of package will address all of the major short comings of the stock set up. Feel free to shoot me a PM if you have any questions.
Sure does sound like a package we would put together as well. There are some sure fire performance gains to be had with the right combination of mods. If you're really getting into Autox I would confirm that your classing rules allow you to change bushing material and arms. Keep in mind that all of our arms do not change your pickup points, and are of OE length.

If it were me, I would take a moment to contact Chase. I'm sure that through his years of experience with the Camaro he's seen just about every combination of parts imaginable. He's one of our most reputable dealers and can get a setup that will perform flawlessly for your needs.
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Old 08-17-2011, 12:27 PM   #13
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You mention the supersway c, but in the description it is quite clear that these are not for a daily driver...would that be an issue. Thanks again for your posts, I'm learning!
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Old 08-17-2011, 12:36 PM   #14
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You mention the supersway c, but in the description it is quite clear that these are not for a daily driver...would that be an issue. Thanks again for your posts, I'm learning!
Again, this is a result of our under promise and over deliver approach to our clients. From the factory a 5th Gen plows, has a lot of understeer. Changing the ratio of bar strength corrects that. Most drivers are accustomed to understeer. If your car is in understeer you can lift off the accelerator or stand on the brakes with abs and the situation will improve. If you are in oversteer and lift or brake the situation will deteriorate. The rear will want to swap ends. That is why we make such a strong statement. We want people to know what they are buying and why.

That said, the Solution C bars are my first choice for a 5th Gen even as a daily driver.
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Old 08-17-2011, 07:47 PM   #15
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If it were me, I would take a moment to contact Chase. I'm sure that through his years of experience with the Camaro he's seen just about every combination of parts imaginable. He's one of our most reputable dealers and can get a setup that will perform flawlessly for your needs.
Thanks.
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Old 08-18-2011, 09:10 AM   #16
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I am a little late to this party but wanted to point out that Fraxum had a very similar request when he was looking for suspension upgrades - improved cornering abilities w/o lowering. I will spare you the sales recommendations (since you already have plenty), pictures and video and let his choice and his experience speak for itself. Click the following link to see his review:

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=162661
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Old 08-18-2011, 11:02 PM   #17
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i spent the day balancing that with the throttle...which makes for a FUN day, but probably not the best way to get around.
It is next to impossible to post great times with a car that pushes, rear end step out and vague on center steering feel. No matter how good the driver, they would be fast in a 5th Gen with a better autocross setup. The only way to address these flaws are by upgrades to the OE sub-frame bushes, radius bushes, sway bar ratio and alignment. In an autocross enviroment there is next to nothing to be found in a differential bush upgrade. The gains from toe link or trailing arms would be incremental compared to the sub-frame, radius, sway bars and alignment.
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