|09-05-2011, 01:43 PM||#1|
How to Read a General Motors Invoice (2012 Camaro)
Where there are cars, there is a lot of money being spent and being made. I want to help even the playing field a little bit. I have obtained the invoice to a 2012 Chevrolet Camaro SS, and I will use this invoice to demonstrate why cars cost so much, how much money can be made off of this car, and where that money goes in the sales process. I have concealed a lot of information about this particular car to protect the parties involved. As far as Camaro5 will know, this is just another black Camaro 2SS. We have a lot of those around here.
Let's start from the top. At the top, make sure you have the right model year. The very first thing in the top-left corner is the model year of the car. Here, it reads "2012 CAMARO 2SS COUPE." If you have asked your dealer for a 2012 and your dealer has shown you a 2011 model, you may be entitled to discounts.
In order to make sure you are negotiating the car you were promised, the invoice can help you keep the dealer accountable. It includes a lot of information about the car:
I have blocked out this information in an effort to keep all parties confidential. I then bought a new computer and called an air strike on the computer with the original invoice so that no one will ever know wherefrom it originated.
Following the left side of the paper, there are various 3-digit alphanumeric codes. These are called RPO codes. GM and other manufacturers use codes like these to build cars. On this one, we can see that GBA means that the exterior of the car is black and that AFM means that the interior is black. Additional RPO codes are on the left below the line of asterisks.
Further down below the asterisks, there are more RPO codes, what they mean, and how much they cost. These are the options on this particular car. Each option has two prices. The first is the retail value of that option. The second is the invoice value of that option. This list starts with the price of the car. In this case, the difference between the retail and invoice prices at the top of the list is $1,418. As you add options, the difference between MSRP and invoice grows. If you follow these columns past the gap in the middle of the page, there is a section that breaks down the total prices for the car with options. The difference now is $1,625.60. With those options, the dealer has the opportunity to make another $200 in gross profit in the sale if you calculate gross profit based on invoice pricing. At a 25% commission, those options give the salesperson another $50 before taxes.
Let's talk about the various prices on the page. On the right side of line 19 is the line labeled "PREFER." This is the GM Preferred Pricing. You may also know this as supplier pricing. Certain companies and individuals are entitled to this price. If this price is higher than invoice, then you should ignore this price and talk to your dealer about invoice pricing instead. MSRP and invoice prices for a car of this quality with no options is listed at line 5. Follow those columns to the bottom of the gap in the middle of the page. 3 lines above the asterisks is the total price of the car. The one on the left is MSRP plus destination. All you have to add is the stuff you want to add in accessories plus taxes, title, and license (TTL). The one on the right is invoice. Once again, all you have to add is accessories and TTL. If you get an invoice deal, this is usually a fair deal.
I want to point out the lines between "TOTAL MODEL & OPTIONS" and "TOTAL." In the invoice column, there are a couple of lines. These are regional contributions the dealer is required to make. For example, all Chevrolet dealers in Chicago contribute to any Chicago media campaigns for the entire community. These costs increase the price of invoice. You cannot negotiate these away because your dealer has to pay them. If you live in an area with these charges, be aware that there is no profit in them.
While you are welcome to discuss holdback, I will not be doing so. I believe businesses do not have to share their costs with their consumers. We don't ask Taco Bell to sell us their tacos at cost, and we don't ask contractors to work for free, so I don't know why so many people expect car dealers to sell vehicles at a loss. If a dealer promises you a deal below invoice, you have gotten a great deal at the dealer's expense. If you get a deal below holdback, with all likelihood either something is wrong with the car or something is wrong with the dealer. Asking for holdback is not a good way to be taken seriously when negotiating for a deal, and it certainly won't be shown to you during the sales process. In my opinion, invoice is a fair deal. Holdback is robbing the car lot. MSRP is robbing the customer. I'd rather not see anyone on Camaro5 get robbed.
VALUE AT PURCHASE
People are under the impression that cars lose value when you drive off the lot. This is only the case when you get a bad deal. Buying a vehicle at invoice is buying a vehicle at the value that the car is insured by the finance company or manufacturer. Take a look at the bottom-right corner of this document. If this vehicle is destroyed, this is the value of the car. Notice that the invoice price is what is written there. When your car is signed in your name, your new car becomes a used car, and its value is only what you can insure. Invoice is your magic number when you drive the car home. After that, the value of your car depends on how hot they sell, how many miles you put on it, what condition you keep it, and wholesale guides that dealers uses, like NADA and Black Book.
Invoice pricing applies in the US and Canada. Costs that change include TTL, advertising fees (the lines above the invoice total), and destination.
Before I begin this section, I want to point out Camaro5 dealers tend to be pretty good people. People that are allowed to sell cars on Camaro5 do a lot of business here, and they have reputations to uphold. Those that don't sell cars here don't have reputations to protect and future business to earn. When you choose to do business with a dealer or any company, try to consider whether the person earning your commission is a good person who deserves your hard-earned money.
Follow this dialogue, and I guarantee that you'll get a better deal than many buyers. Remember to be as polite and respectful as possible. Your local dealer may not be used to this sort of request.
The salesperson comes to the desk with the pricing. With a pen, he points at a sheet divided into 4 corners (a 4-square). "This is the new car. This is your trade. This is your down payment. This is your monthly payment. Just sign here."
Politely, you ask, "Can you please show me an invoice with these prices?"
Confused, the salesperson responds, "We don't show internal invoices to our customers." After this, he says something about how the cost is irrelevant to the value and that you're buying a great value at this price.
You have to keep being polite here. "I know it isn't normal for you to share invoices, but I have been promised invoice pricing elsewhere and know that I can get it. I want to see the invoice on this car so that I can get the best deal. If I don't see an invoice, how will I know that I've gotten the best deal?"
Determined, the salesperson will try to deflect using the 4-square. A good salesperson will have asked you earlier what payment you are trying to reach. Now, the salesperson will talk to you about how close the payment is to your goals. He will ask you to sign again. "If I can get your payment to [insert number here], will you buy the car?" They write the number in the square with the monthly payment.
Ignore the distraction. You respond, "That depends on whether I see an invoice. If that is how the math works out for invoice, then we might have a deal."
The salesperson will leave, talk to a manager, and will either come back with an invoice or come back with a manager. Say the same things to the manager. Do not get angry and do not leave. Stay in your seat, relaxed, until you see an invoice. You've already spent a long time talking to the salesperson, driving the car, and asking questions that the salesperson probably couldn't answer. Make it all worthwhile. Wait for an invoice. A lot of people miss a good deal because they didn't negotiate like a professional. It doesn't matter how many cars you've bought in your lifetime. These salespeople sell more than you will ever buy. They are better at it than you, and you need to stay focused on the price of the car. Eventually, they will give you what you want so long as you are reasonable.
HOW THE SALESPERSON GETS PAID
The salesperson probably makes 25% above invoice or what is called a mini deal depending on how the math works out. On top of this, a salesperson can make bonuses, but those depend on total cars sold at the end of the month, high gross awards, manufacturer awards, and additional products and services the dealer sells you.
If you buy a car at invoice, your salesperson makes a mini deal. This varies from dealer to dealer. If someone sells a car, they will always make at least this amount. I know a salesperson who used to work somewhere that paid $50 mini deals and someone else who sold cars with $200 mini deals. A decent salesperson sells at least 10 cars per month. If your salesperson falls in this category, that $50 is 3 days of work. In other words, a $50 mini deal is like making $17 per day. New cars are not where the money is. Allow me to demonstrate.
Let's say your dealer guaranteed MSRP. On the invoice attached to this post, MSRP is $38,080 and invoice is $36,826. Subtract the invoice from the MSRP and divide by 4. That is your salesperson's commission, $313.45. The dealership, after paying the salesperson, made $940.35 in profit. Keep in mind that invoice has some built-in revenue to cover dealership advertising, non-commissioned payroll, bills, and other costs of running a business. There is some profit in there, too, but it isn't a whole lot. If you bought this Camaro from your dealer at full price, they still made less than $1,000 off of you, which goes to show the money really isn't in new cars. Even if your dealer sold 100 new cars in a month with that profit margin, there is less than $95,000 in gross profit for the whole month in the new car department. That's pretty low considering the value of the merchandise. The days of big markups are long gone—a big win for consumers. Lower markups mean better lease residuals, higher resale values, and better loan terms.
EXPLAINING STUPID CAR DEALS
In business, it is reckless to sell below cost without a reason. Dealers rarely explain why they may be compelled to offer below cost deals.
Keeping a car on the lot costs about 1% of MSRP. If there's a $40,000 car on the lot, it therefore costs $400 to keep it month after month. If this car has been on the lot for over 6 months, this car needs to go. The dealer, in hopes of saving another $400, will offer at a substantial discount. As a buyer, you should ask how long the car has been there. Be careful of any signs of lot rot. There are dates on the right side of the invoice that indicate the age of the car. These are in the black box on the right side under the asterisks. Use these to get some idea of how old your car is.
The next reason that a dealer might woo you into an exemplary deal is to truly earn your business. They will ask the following of you: that you give them a perfect survey and that you use them for service. This applies to first-time customers more than anyone else. Statistically, someone who bought a car somewhere is more likely to use them for service. That's important because the dealer can make up the bad sale in service costs.
Another good reason to give you a deal that costs them money is that they'll earn another sale. That doesn't make sense until you consider GM's internal bonus structure. Basically, dealers can get big chunks of change from GM when they hit certain milestones, and that money can be collected quarterly depending on how the dealer is signed up for these rewards. If a dealer is the number one dealer in sales, GM rewards them. If they exceed GM's sales goals for that dealership, GM rewards them. I'm sure you can see how it is lucrative to sell you a car for way under cost in order to earn huge gobs of green from the manufacturer.
Finally, the last reason to give someone a ridiculous deal is because someone messed up. If someone prints you a buyer's order with a really low price on it, it's probably a mistake. If they promised you invoice, and you find yourself $1,000 under invoice, it's up to you what you want to do. It's like finding $1,000 on the side of the road. Are you going to turn it in or make it rain at the nearest bar?
It is also worthwhile to consider that relative to holdback the dealer receives money monthly or quarterly depending on how the dealer is signed up. If you get a crazy deal, your dealer may be waiting a while to get its money back.
USE IT WISELY
In conclusion, the invoice I have posted is meant to be a tool to keep all the players in the car game honest. The reason you want one of these in front of you is that it makes sure the dealer is using GM's invoice price in the deal. After this, all you need to do is take off any qualifying incentives. Your dealer gets reimbursed for those incentives.
This invoice is also a reminder that your dealer is not making a killing on Camaros. While Camaros are profitable for GM, they are not the reason your dealer is in business. I hope you found my invoice guide both educational and useful in your search for a great deal on your new Camaro.
|10-07-2011, 12:33 AM||#3|
SoCal Race Team #10
Drives: 2012 CTH 2SS/RS
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Oak Park, CA
this is a phenomenal post btw. thanks for this!
"You wanna lay the fate of the world on the kid's Camaro? That's cool."
2012 CTH 2SS/RS
Current mods: CAI intake, catback exhaust upgrade
Future mods: too many to list
Tundra CrewMax SR5, TRD, 5.7L V8, 2" Lift, 381 HP; 401 ft lb
|10-19-2011, 05:15 AM||#6|
Drives: 04 z06 yellow
Join Date: Jan 2008
I have bought approximately 30 new gm vehicles and have seen several invoices and I have never understood the bottom. The 2 colums at the bottom right have different figures. Is the holdback $900 or $1115? Thanks
|11-13-2011, 09:53 PM||#7|
Drives: 2012 IBM Camaro 1LT/RS
Join Date: Oct 2011
I got a copy of my invoice from my sales rep but it's missing the bottom section starting with "This motor vehicle..." and down. I went in there saying I wanted to pay invoice for the car, and we agreed to do invoice + $100. He gave me the invoice and he said I'm paying the price listed next to "Prefer" which is $28,809. The invoice price appears to be $28,908. However, with your example above, the preferred pricing is significantly higher than the invoice price. Did I get this car for what the dealer promised me?
2012 Camaro IBM 1LT RS Auto
10/18/2011 (3000) TPW 11/7
|11-15-2011, 05:41 PM||#8|
Also, you might not have seen the bottom part of the invoice because the dealer located the vehicle elsewhere. Locates are a common practice when the exact vehicle you want is not available, which is almost every time the vehicle is not ordered. It saves time, and it gets lot inventory into the hands of buyers. Locates are more expensive and time-consuming for dealers than selling off the lot or ordering, but it allows your salesperson to get the sale out of the way now. A salesperson would rather sell the car now than wait for something to possibly go wrong with the deal later. Even if you do end up buying the car on paper, there is room for problems with the financing or other issues, so salespeople are much more inclined to try this method than waiting for you to buy later. It also eliminates the risk that you will buy elsewhere.
The bottom of every invoice indicates the dealer holding the car. If the vehicle belongs to another dealer, do you think a dealer is going to tell you who has it? You might just make a trip over there and buy a car. They want you to stay put so that they get the sale on the books.
|12-11-2011, 06:37 PM||#9|
Drives: dodge truck
Join Date: Dec 2011
hi i read this thread and .... well i have a relative that is a car salesman
primarily for (deleated) but his dealer ship had a chevy branch in tampa also
from what he saids they are out to make as much as they can
they take classes on how to hide markup and profit
they are nice people but to keep their jobs they have to "milk" you
and some have gotten to were they joke about how much they got some one for
this is because they mostly do have feelings but have to make a liveing some how
that extra 1tho is house payment for them
they dont like thoes that are internet savy as they dont make much off them
but an internet savy person is more likely to buy a car
they can sell you a car at "" below dealer cost" and still make money
they make money on getting you fianceing
getting you to trade a car
getting you to buy a warrenty
and the give aways are not that much
oil changes at half .. discount on recomanded service
the dealer ship is a means to front the sirvice dept
which is were they make MORE money from GM on the warrety work!!!
unless that dealer is your relative ...you dont know..
|12-12-2011, 01:40 AM||#10|
THE CAMARO KING
Drives: 2012 Camaro ZL1 on order #PZSD7S
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Out Somewhere Driving My 'BADZL1'
making a living based off of greed to feed your family... by taking more than
what is considered an "acceptable" practice or trying to get "rich" off of one vehicle sale. As in my case they kept a $500 dollar deposit for me ordering a ZL1 then canceling my order because they wanted 5k over MSRP.
In my case they should not be in business to sell cars if theyre only intent is to bend people over. Besides, a business cannot stay in business of just keeping deposits....they have to be able to sell cars...
And while I am still feel i am entitled to talk smack about my dealership
as they have no justification for keeping my deposit....
I signed nothing...and got nothing in return for my $500 deposit..
They did not even offer me a reciept or even the courtesy of letting me have $500 worth of accessories from the store. Will I ever get my deposit back?
Ask them Jupiter Chevrolet Garland Texas...
972.271.9900 Ask for Daniel Flat director of finance.
For the person that is active in getting me a refund to my credit card
I will personally paypal anyone $25 to your paypal account.
What happens if I never get the deposit back? No biggie as there are dealerships in this world that actually care that they do not bend one over backwards such as Chevyland In Shreveport La. Kudos to Blake Powell, internet and inventory manager!
Yes, there are some good quality dealerships out there that actually have a conscience when they go home. Dealerships that rape you over the coals and then still want more like Jupiter Chevy of Garland Texas? http://www.jupiterchev.com/
They deserve bad business and to have they're licensed pulled in MHO.
There is NO reason to keep a deposit if a person never signs a single piece of paper, or backs out for any reason at ANY time.
btw.. Thanks for the post!
2012 Camaro ZL1 Car Name: Bruce
ZL1, LSA, MN6/MG9, DSX, RTQ, VR,
1000 Initial Order 11/11/2011 Chevyland
1100 Order accepted at dealer: 11/11/2011 - PZSD7S
2000 Order accepted by GM: 12/14/2011
3000 Accepted By Production Control: 00/00/2011 - TPW 00/00/2011
3100 Sequenced: 00/00/2011
3300 Scheduled For Production:0/0/2012
3400 Broadcast: 0/0/2012
3800 Produced: 0/0/2012
4000 Available To Ship: 0/0/2012
4200 Shipped: 0/0/2012
5000 Delivered To The Dealer: 0/0/2012
6000 Delivered To Customer:0/0/2012
|02-09-2012, 08:07 PM||#11|
Emerald Coast Camaros
Drives: '12 2SS/RS LS3 GBA
Join Date: Sep 2011
Really great thread!
Muffler Delete, Cold Air Inductions intake, Technostalgia Sequential LED Tail Lights, Vmax CNC Ported TB, RX Catch Can, AAC LED Interior Lights (Aqua)
|02-19-2012, 10:33 PM||#12|
Drives: Sofia: 2012 Chevy Camaro 2SS LS3
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Los Angeles, CA
|03-24-2012, 10:05 PM||#13|
Drives: 2010 Silverado LTZ,2012 Camaro 2SS
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Houston, TX
Excellent information. I am currently trying to negotiate the best price I can for a 2012 2SS with some options. I have been shown what the MSRP on a new a camaro that I was trying to order. I was told that I might be able to get a better price by ordering the vehicle as opposed to trying to find one on a lot. My question is the destination charge that is $900.00 and the Dealer IMR contribution charge and the LMA contribution charges. Are these good areas to either have these charges removed or negotiated down. What is my best route and what can I expect related to what charges I might see after we come a price related to the factory invoice pricing on the car and the options??? I appreciate any expertise that can be provided. I am right at that final negotiating stage.
|04-29-2012, 07:04 PM||#16|
Drives: 2011 Inferno 2SS/RS
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Harker Heights, TX
Great Info, THANKS!!!!!!!!! I will def be using this info on my 2013 ZL1....
2012 Centennial Edition Corvette
2011 Summit White 2LT/RS
2011 Merlot Street Glide
2013 IOM ZL1 A6 w/Black Wheels, Order Pending
USAF Retired & Lovin Life one day at a time!!!!
|07-08-2012, 10:49 AM||#17|
2013 1SS in IOM
Drives: 2013 1SS
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Lansdale, PA
|07-08-2012, 12:34 PM||#18|
Drives: 1969 Corvair Monza, 2013 Sonic RS
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Detroit Metropolitan Area
Interesting JacekPSUr1. I have always been told the destination charge was non-negotiable, even when I was eligible for GMS pricing, because the dealer had to pay that amount. Everything else was negotiable, but not the destination charged. To think all these years the fact that the dealer gets reimbursed for it from Chevrolet has been kept from me.
|08-26-2012, 03:59 PM||#19|
Drives: '97 z-28 conv. 2013 BRM ZL1 conv.
Join Date: May 2012
Great post "the_blur"
I would just like to add a few things. I have not purchased a car at MSRP for over twenty years. The info about the holdback not many people know about. I think it is about 3% of the invoice price. I will tell you there are certain times of the year that are the best times to buy a car. End of the year is best. My most recent purchase was a SUV. The MSRP was about 40,000 dollars. The dealers invoice price was about 32,000. I only paid 27$ over the dealers invoice price. SUV's were and may still be one of the most profitable to auto manufactures. I believe a suburban had the potential of 12k profit.
Now with that being said I have an order for a ZL1 vert. It is a very limited production vehicle and as some of you know some dealers are marking up the MSRP 5-10K. Well I'm happy that I'm not going to pay these inflated prices but also will not be able to get the car at dealer invoice. In this case a happy medium will be exceptible. When Im ready to buy a new SUV I will be able to make up the difference.
Oh yeah the destination charge is not negotiable. neither are taxes or tags.
|09-03-2012, 05:24 PM||#20|
Drives: 2012 ZL1 Camaro
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Southeastern Washington State
Just purchased 2013 ZL1 for MSRP minus $1000 rebate plus $150 paper work fee. They are just not going to move much on these, as a very great number of dealersips will never see one. And I do beleive they sell some of these for the $5,000 to $15,000 over MSRP.
|10-01-2012, 01:13 AM||#21|
Drives: 2013 2SS 1LE NPP GBE
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Bay Area, online, & in my 1LE
The holdback is necessary to calculate the actual cost and should be the starting place to calculate the profit you want to give; just don't discuss it aloud as you've said.
Many manufacturers (not all) offer dealers a percentage of (not off) MSRP in the form of what's called a Holdback used to cover the financing of the vehicles. Dealers must pay for the vehicles in advance with loans from the manufacturer or a bank. Chevy offers a holdback; last I checked it's 3% of MSRP. If the car's just arrived, the dealer gets to keep all of the holdback as instant profit. At 45 days he gets to keep 50% of it. Since most dealers rotate their inventory in less than 90 days, they usually get to keep some of the holdback payment.
So, if you're special ordering a Camaro, you and the dealer can strike a win:win negotiation by offering a fair and reasonable profit above the real cost ... Invoice (minus) holdback where holdback is calculated at 3% of the total MSRP of all the options you've ordered. The key here is to make an offer that provides the dealer with a fair and reasonable profit.
You'll see many people on this forum say they got $1,000 off Invoice. Is that "good"? Calculate the total invoice less the $1,000 discount then add back the holdback and decide for yourself. It depends.
NOTE: there are factors other than Holdbacks and Invoice that matter too like local market data (how popular a certain car is or isn't), how long cars are sitting on the lot (look at the sticker on the drivers door, take today's date minus the mfg date on the stick plus on month and that's how long it's been sitting there), cash incentives, rebates that affect the total price of what you should pay for a car.
|11-14-2012, 01:39 PM||#22|
Drives: 14 1LE
Join Date: May 2011
|11-14-2012, 02:00 PM||#23|
Drives: 2013 / 2SS / RS / L99
Join Date: Feb 2009
|12-11-2012, 11:27 PM||#24|
Drives: Lotus Exige
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: CA, Bay Area
I too thought destination charges were non-negotiable. Now that doesn't seem to be the case. Is it for all cars on the lot and also ordered?
|12-12-2012, 09:50 AM||#25|
Drives: Camaro 2LT RS
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Concord CA
Thank you for posting this article. In my case, I am told that the Invoice does not exist because I am special ordering my Camaro. I am told that since the car does not exist, there is no VIN number. And because there is no VIN number, there is no Invoice. It makes sense, but is it true?
2013 Camaro 2LT RS Blueray Metallic
Last edited by david.inga; 03-04-2013 at 01:59 PM.
|cost, holdback, invoice, invoice price, msrp, pricing|
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